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Has it been rose jointed or re-bushed, if so your bill is going to be a bit bigger than that,
If you are looking to restore it there will be non standard bits all over the place
So I’m in the hunt for a 944, specifically an S2 as they are the better engine (not incl. Turbo). S2’s were under £5k a couple of years ago but now they are £9k+ and some are going for silly money.
However, this (road legal) track car has caught my eye. But I haven’t got a clue about what is normally done to make a car “track ready”. One assumes I will need to do the following to get it back to an OEM road car;
Removal of roll cage
Removal of bucket seats
Removal of kill switch
Removal of timing computer
Removal of exterior stickers
Replacement of all interior door cards, roof liner, carpet etc...
I’m wondering on whether to take a punt on one for sale at ~£6k (I do want a bit of a project) as could probably source the replacement parts for £1500 and sell a few bits (Seats, cage, wheels) for ~£600.
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?m...2F173221768107
Is there anything glaring obvious I’ve missed ?
Thanks.
Last edited by gavsw20; 23rd March 2018 at 13:04.
Has it been rose jointed or re-bushed, if so your bill is going to be a bit bigger than that,
If you are looking to restore it there will be non standard bits all over the place
Is it road legal because it has a plate or does it come with a valid MoT?
Take a good look at the brakes. Often track cars have special brake pads as well. Let's call them 'colder' (I don't know the English term for it). These pads are used for heavy braking on the circuit but are too 'cold' to use on the road limiting the braking power when you try to reduce speed for a traffic light etc. In a lot of cases, the brake booster has been removed, it needs to be put in again. And (I don't know the 944's layout), sometimes owners of these Porsches change the brake master cylinder as well: the bore is different from the original.
Take a look at the clutch as well: is it a 'normal' clutch or a clutch for the circuit: as you can imagine, a normal clutch is a lot easier to use, where the race clutch is more like an on-off-switch.
Summed up: it's important that you know what has been done to the car; not only the visible changes but also the changes 'under the skin'.
I have a racing clutch and flywheel in my 964 and it's not an issue on the road. Ditto racing green brake pads. Lower and harder suspension makes life a bit more difficult, but it's still liveable.
Why not just get it MOT'ed and see what changes are required to make it legal. I would be more worried if its lights, indicators had been removed, plexy glass fitted and the cost of replacing the interior. Also just check that it had not visited the Armco at some point.
Personally I would pay more money and find a car that had not been messed about with, that said a friend bought a track prepared 993 about 5 years ago and still uses it as his daily commuter.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
This proposition sounds like it will cost you more time and effort than buying a good in to start with. Once a track car, always a track car... and Porsche bits (even trim etc) will be crazy money to get the car right.
Lots of factors not really even covered in the OP - for example, is the cage bolt in or weld in? You may need the floors and roof off to remove it. And even then you may find that the remaining shell has been structurally compromised in various ways - it’s amazing what you can jettison when you have a cage for rigidity.
EDIT: I now see that the car has Yellowstuff brakes; I think these can be used in a road going car as well.
Further: What Andyg says, especially the MoT suggestion. Apart from the fact that, it's best that the OP tries to find out if he can live with a race clutch/flywheel. And, what JGJG says! Perhaps things would have been different if the car had been in your possession (and was raced by you) from day one. That way you simply know its history!
Clicked on the listing. This is not the car for you.
To get it back to OEM won't be easy and will cost a fortune, there'll be holes all over the body where you've removed track components that will need to be plug welded, prepared and painted if you're going to do it properly. It would be far less pain and expense to buy an original one..
It depends on how much of a project you want, bodywork looks good and that probably the important thing, everything else is nuts and bolts and time.
Cheers..
Jase
According to the listing it has fibreglass panels etc. Thing is going to look like a dose in the metal (erm, fibre) or on the road.Originally Posted by JasonM
And the rest isn’t just nuts n bolts, there will be a lot of torch cutting and welding if that hoop is in right (and if it’s not, it doesn’t speak well to the rest of the car)
Keep an eye on Classic Car Auction's site. I regularly attend them and a variety of 944s appear. Next one is at the NEC next weekend. Happy to look at a car for you if you are interested.
Guys - thanks very much for the feedback, I am well and truly put off now and will look elsewhere.
I think £3/£4k more will get me where I want to be with much less stress and hassle.
Must’ve had a moment of madness yesterday !
It's called 'enthusiasm', not madness! If we all did was is considered 'sane' we'd driving small metallic-grey Korean cars with a grey interior and a coathanger at the back of the seat...
With Porsche, there's only two rules: 'buy the best car you can afford' and 'make sure that the guy who owned the car before you, took the financial blows'. Cars that come with a history (of repairs already done...) are usually preferable.
Menno
I don't that would necessarily be a horrendous job but it does depend on what you are starting with.
The dash, centre console and door cards are all stock. Even the speakers seem to be there! So you'd need a set of black seats and a set of carpets.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Porsche-9...UAAOSw5U9Zj1Ql front sports seats for 300
rears https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Porsche-9...cAAOSwfqFaqnJK
We all have remapped ecs although there isn't a lot you can do to an S2 motor really. You'd need a road map not a race map but it may have multiple maps already.
Ride height looks much like mine so ok and as they may well be adjustable spax you could play with that.
Fibreglass wings are not that uncommon on road cars. The bottom of the wings rust well so fibre glass makes sense. But they can be a real pita to fit so shut lines can be awful but acceptable for a race car. They could be refitted if necessary but that's hardly crucial.
D90s are stock wheels, ok toyo 888 aren't great but the kumhos would do to start with. 8 and 9 are wide for an S2 but should work ok. I think they should be 7 and 8 iirc.
Check the sills for rust and then check again. There's a vent in the b post, have a look in there with a camera phone or a endoscope for rust.
You might want to paint the rear valance red.
Its a J plate so the bridge spoiler will be original and it has an MOT to jan 19!!
J77BOW PORSCHE 944
Check another vehicle
Colour Red
Fuel type Petrol
Date registered 30 December 1992
MOT valid until 21 January 2019
You'd need to see what they mean by lightened. Might just be that they took out the sound deadening and the interior. Might be rather more.
New rear seat and carpets.
Cage - welded or bolt in?
AC will need replacing no doubt. Needs a new cigarette lighter as its missing!
Could be an ok project I think.
Oh and I drive a 90 944 turbo daily.
David
For what it’s worth it looks a good car, granted probably not the one to make fully original or concours, but as a fast-road car and at that price it’s great. Or you could buy this for huge amounts.
Personally I’d be inclined to make a project of it, take a view on how original you want to get to and take a punt and enjoy! Good luck either way.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
To much done to that 944 to convert it back to original at a sensible price. Would be interesting to know how usable it is on the road.
I’ve got a 981 Cayman already but really want to scratch a 944 itch as they are such good looking cars and we’re iconic when I was growing up. Recently moved house with a double garage and I said I’d treat myself to something when I moved for under £10k.
S2 seams like the sensible option for power but the standard model and S look good too. None of them are particularly fast unless I go for a Turbo but I don’t want to spend that much as I rarely use the Cayman as it is !
So this came up on eBay recently - Porsche 944 S 16v 1988 https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?m...2F152952671301
It actually sold last week but is now up for sale again. I’ve spoken to the seller and he said there is a tiny oil leak from the rear of the engine, one small crack to the dash and it needs tidying to a few dents (not a problem) in the body work. I did a HPI and it checks out, plus it has an MOT for another 6months.
Could be worth a punt at under £3,500 ?!?
Alarm bells would be ringing for me. Why has he put it back up for sale just a week after buying it?
Sorry should have been clearer. It’s the same seller who had it up for sale last week.
Assuming buyer bottled the sale or found issues.
I had a grey s that colour, even came from Bristol. They are the least loved of the range but I liked mine. Only sold it as I wanted more go. Running costs will be similar to an S 2. Check the cam chain and slipper as they weren't a service part but do stretch and break which is new engine time usually.
Oil pressure seems a tad high for a 944 engine that is warm and on tickover.
Crease on back of car has sprung the 9 off the 944, which could mean whatever hit it also hit the boot spoiler, look for misaligned boot pins(does it open and close smoothly).
"No rusty sills as they were repaired ( welded and painted) " if they haven't been replaced then check inside the sill from the B pillar with a mirror and torch.
"sadly handbrake cable snapped." has this been repaired they are a PITA to replace.
Check the popup headlight linkage, they wear and then stop working.
Check underneath at the jacking points they are usually rusty and will eventually rust through, see below, you can also see in the image the handbrake cable where it enters into the body of the car.
(You'll have realised by now that the handbrake is on the right of the seat?)
Last edited by K300; 22nd March 2018 at 01:16.
Also check the clutch hose, feel underneath just after the U bend, you cna see it in the image of the engine under the fuel pipes, the hose tends to char as it's above the exhaust and starts to seep clutch fluid.
Also check the brake master cylinder, the servo has fully rusted and sometimes that starts with a bit of a leak from the master cylinder causing bubbling of the paint.
Also check the steel fuel pipes underneath the car, they are exposed and can acquire pin holes of rust, causing tiny leaks. They run the length of the car and are hundreds for the parts.
He said the reason it wasn’t sold is the buyer wanted to pay via PayPal (auction stated cash), went home to do a xfer and never came back.
The seller has been pretty thorough will all my Qs, and has posted a couple of vids - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZt...FaJheOs-FLSeCA
Good spot re the oil pressure. He says there is a small leak from the rear of the engine so maybe a replacement OPRV will fix both issues (assuming it’s not a poor ground ). Will driving for an hour (journey home time) screw the engine up if it has high pressure?
It sold for £3,300 which doesn’t seam too bad as it has a heap of history but needs; handbrake cable, clock, OPRV, rear crease, badge, surface rust I think £3k cash would buy it. I actually want a bit of a winter project car with a few odd jobs to do and my mate is a sprayer so could sort the rust / creases.
Here’s what he’s come back with so far...
1) Any advisories on the last MOT - Initially failed MOT due to rusty sills.After fixing, there were no advisories.
2) Last time it was serviced - October 2017
3 Last time it had an oil change - 2000 miles ago - June 2017
4) Date of water pump replacement - September 2015 (including timing belt)
5) Any rattles on startup or smoke from the exhaust - minor rattle while engine cold, disappears when warm. When using the car on a daily basis, there is no indication of any rattle.There are no issues hot starting, and there is an oil leak under the car, not massive, but it is.There is no trace of oil around the head-gasket,I assume it comes from back side of the engine.There are no warning lights on, and I also managed to snap the handbrake cable.That's all in terms of issues.
6) Does the sunroof function correctly - yes, new drive gear wheels
7) Any tears in the seats- No,
8) Do all the dials function and illuminate - Yes
9) Do all the warning light illuminate and turn off when the engine is started -Not tested (but videos only show Handbrake light)
10) Rough idea of tyre tread - 8 mm
11) Do you have a clear photograph of any paperwork for the last couple of years- Complete service history since the car left the factory
12) Does the digital clock function correctly -No
13) Any rust present at all - Minor surface rust on left front wing
14) Has the car been used recently or stood for a while - Driven every weekend.
As soon as the ignition is switched on position 1, the oil gauge goes all the way to the high indication.In this time, the oil check light is on, and once engine started, it goes off.I asked a mechanic and I've been assured that there is no reason to get worried.While driving, the gauge is fixed in the same position as in the videos.
There is absolutely no rust on the shell and apart from the visible dent on the back, there is no issue around the hatch area.
Go for it! Sounds cheap, and they won't get any cheaper as time goes on.
Cheers..
Jase
I'd say the oil pressure sender has gone. They default to open circuit if they fail and just read max as that does.
That car is warm in the vid and the oil pressure should be about 3, so halfway down the gauge, at idle rising back to 4.5/5 when running
It doesn't mean there is a problem but I'd like to know what the real reading is.
It has been known for this to be done to hide issues by certina unscrupulous dealers (usually).
Thanks for that, hopefully a cheap fix.
Would you say what’s coming out the exhaust looks ok ? Looked a bit white to be.
I'll have a look. I tried to take a quick video when I pulled into the drive tonight of what my oil gauge does but it is far too dark to see very much. Once warm the gauge sits just under 5 and at idle its about 3.5
It certainly shouldn't sit above 5 all the time. But yes in the grand scheme of things its a cheap fix. I'm sure you know but 944 still aren't cheap things to keep running. They are getting really quite old now and need a fair bit of tlc.
I use mine 3 times a week or so to go to work but its pretty reliable on the whole.
David
So I test drove an S2 yesterday, very very impressed. It drove as tight as anything and great power delivery. I’d go so far as to say I preferred it to my 981 Cayman !!!
It was up for £5k but needed lots of paint, seals and a few internal knobs replacing which is OK for me. Worrying thing was the “total loss by insurance in 1992” which flagged up on the HPI check so I’ve walked away.
This has also put me off the grey 944S as I just don’t think I’m going to be as impressed when it comes to power.
An S2 it definitely is then.
A total loss in 92 would have been quite a thump as it would have been virtually brand new. They get written off now for a body panel here and there such are the repair costs.
Keep looking they are still out there.
That was my thoughts too, wouldn’t mind if it was recent as they are worth so little vs. repair.
Could you help me with a couple of Q’s please ?
1) - Are they quite sluggish starters? The one I saw took a while to turn which the seller said was normal ?
2) - Do they bottom-out a bit over bumps at speed? On the (very good) test drive said “it’s the jacking point and they all do it”
If it hadn’t had been for the HPI check I’d have bought it for £5k as it had heaps of paperwork and the paintwork and odd missing button didn’t bother me.
The guy was a (ex-dealer sprayer) Porsche salvage guy and said it could have been stolen / recovered which after 30days was a write-off back in the day. Weird as the HPI check included with the car from 2011 didn’t state total-loss. He also pointed out the OEM door seam folds, OEM stickers etc... which implied it hadn’t been tampered with.
I just had visions of coming to sell it in nn years and never being able to get rid of it.
Yes, slow to spin. Iirc it's the largest 4 cylinder engine? A good battery and starter make a difference but it's still slow.
Bottoming - not really. Mine is lowered a little and it's not a huge problem so not sure what was going on there. Did it look tght to the arches?
Got a link?
Last edited by DavidL; 25th March 2018 at 15:37.
Thanks for confirming startup, something else not to worry about when viewing in future. Not too low I didn’t think, although it did have 17” 996 wheels on.
It’s a shame as it was a solid car and recently had belts, water pump and a stack of other stuff done recently. I couldn’t believe how tight it was to drive.
One more question, is the gearbox quite noisy on these as put my ear to the right wheel arch and it sounded very “mechanical”. If that makes sense.
There are a few others a around for the £8k mark which I think I will go for.
This is the link to the one I saw that came back as “total loss”;
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?m...2F152956273684
Gearboxes are noisy. Sometimes new oil helps, swepco is popular. Mine needs a new pinon shaft bearing so has a noticeable whine at certain revs. They aren't that much work to replace as they are at the rear of the car. If you have to put your ear to it to hear it that doesn't sound too bad.
Cat cars will always be cheaper but running costs will be the same. Selling will be for less and slower but the market is still moving up slowly so maybe worth a punt.
I'm not familiar with the vendor. Make sure the wheels have the correct offset or the right spacers. D90 s look better to me.
David
So that car has sold which I thought it would do as long as someone took a punt.
Looks like I can defo get an S2 for under £9k so I way we’ll be bombarding you with PMs over the next couple of months. My first question is “where are we with Fuchs on a 944 as they look beautiful”?
Issue is I’m used to a modern Porsche so when it was sluggish to start I just though the worst.
Thanks for all the info so far, you’ve been a great help.
Last edited by gavsw20; 27th March 2018 at 23:23.
I see the Porsche 944 Turbo has quadrupled in value since selling mine
If you want an investment car, just buy whatever I sell next haha.
Its always the way! I bought and sold a 996 turbo at 25k and thought I'd done well to break even. That car is now worth 40+ of course. But I did keep the 944t which, as you say, has appreciated but you have to take into account the costs to keep it at a given value.I see the Porsche 944 Turbo has quadrupled in value since selling mine
If you want an investment car, just buy whatever I sell next haha.
No bother just ask away. I'm no mechanic but I've done a few bits over the years and run mine most days. Its sitting in the rain on the roof as we speak!
So I think I’m going to look at this at the weekend - https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?m...2F382424316933
Yes it has high mileage but I’m only going to be using this as a Sunday car with the odd Silverstone trip.
It seams to have pretty much everything replaced recently that’s needs sorting too; camchain, both tensioners, water pump, clutch, timing & balance belts, recent service, top-end skim and HG replaced.
The “bad points” look addressable too for a weekend garage tinkerer; heater clip or vacuum, upholstering (if bothered), surface rust strip & paint, new gear knob, sunroof seal, rear key rubber, rear load cover respray,
Could be worth a punt at under £4500.
Better, much better! And for that money, you can actually start improving the car other than buying parts to get it into an original car again (like the car you spotted first). The single pic of the cylinder head shows that the owner has invested in the car at some point. Try to find out how the g/box is doing after all those years and have a close look at the suspension - but that's not breaking the bank to replace if needed.
Upholstering: well, this car has a colour that invites you to go overboard on the interior. I'm thinking 'tartan'. The place to start searching for parts is here at Pelican Parts: https://www.pelicanparts.com/catalog...30_catalog.htm
Keep us posted!!
Menno
EDIT: forgot to mention! Apart from the fact that you'll check all dials and switches, it's also a good idea to check the fuses! Especially with these high milage, older cars. Try to figure out if a DPO (Dumb Previous Owner) has tried to hide an electrical glitch with a big *ss fuse. Like there's '16 - 16 - 40 - 16' on the back of the fuses. You need to know the correct configuration of course. But you can find that online. Don't ask me how I know, just thank me later...
Last edited by thieuster; 5th April 2018 at 06:12.
High mileage but looks like a genuine car, I like the fact that he has owned it for a few years as well, always a good sign.
Quite a car for the price of a watch!
One of my wall posters as a kid was the 924,944 and 928 in profile. I actually bought a 924 in the late 89s when I was 19, loved it, of course my mates in their GTIs were all much quicker than me but hay, I had a Porsche.
Then it was nicked and burned out a few years later. :-(
Cheers..
Jase
The easy bit about this is that there is a detailed list of the fuses and relays under the lid of the fuse box with fuse rating and what its for. There should also be a few spare ones and a little yellow applicator.
Does look ok and I wouldn't worry about the mileage especially at that price.
^^^ This ^^^
Last edited by thieuster; 6th April 2018 at 22:32.
Anglia Car Auctions have one in their April auction, no connection;
https://angliacarauctions.co.uk/clas...944-track-car/
Thanks for the comments above guys.
I called the guy this evening and had a chat for 45mins with him, very knowledgeable about cars and honest about the car.
Will go and see it tomorrow and report back.
I bought it - a cardboard folder absolutely full of paperwork since birth and a service manual with evidence of every oil/belt change. Lovely chap who was selling it who also had two Rileys (restoring) and an XK120.
The body work is exceptional with the only rust spot attended to during the week as “he was bored”. Just needs the area spraying.
Drove back 150miles without missing a beat and sat at 70 (ahem) on the M6 for 60miles. There was little liquid splattering in the engine bay in the LH side (looking in) so will investigate that. I did drive it hard for the last 15miles through the twisties.
Needs a few switches replacing, OEM steering wheel, £150’s worth of seals and it’ll look great. May trim the seats if I can source the material.
He gave me a box full of bits too (trim, afm, plugs) so they will be useful.
Result, well done looking forward to the updates.
Pictures, we need pictures
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