Reply With QuoteNever really understood why there were any in the first place.
Likewise Porsche/Lamborghini/Bentley SUVs...
They'll claim it's diversifying to satisfy demand, but I think it dilutes and degrades the brands longer term.
M
Last edited by andy tims; 23rd February 2018 at 11:28.
Andy
Wanted - Damasko DC57
Never really understood why there were any in the first place.
Likewise Porsche/Lamborghini/Bentley SUVs...
They'll claim it's diversifying to satisfy demand, but I think it dilutes and degrades the brands longer term.
M
Cayenne is their biggest selling car and makes them most of their revenue, the sports cars are just their for show now and marketing the brand.
I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't similar for Bentley and Bentayga or whatever it's called. Plus the demand for the Lambo SUV seems pretty high, so I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't sell more than their supercars.Originally Posted by Vanguard
Unfortunately SUVs seems the way forward...
The problem is, and I speak as someone who has both a sports car and a large new SUV 4x4 (VW Touareg), is that the SUV's are just so damned convenient for everyday use. Comfortable, stable, safe, loads of room, all the toys, great driving position, fast, powerful... the list goes on and on.
I can fully understand why they are so popular.
So clever my foot fell off.
Thet are all going to go away from diesels I've the next few years as the batteries used in electric cars will improve drastically.
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ISTR reading in Car mag last month that, for the first time in something like two decades, the average mpg for road vehicles has gone down (worse) and the reason given was the rush away from derv and to relatively inefficient SUVs. That, of course, leads to a commensurate increase in CO2. There are loads of innovative technology in the pipeline to produce diesel engines that are at least as clean as the petrol equivalent but still with the mpg/CO2 advantages but it looks like the bad press and blinkered public will end up with this technology being binned.
Now we just need to get 200 amp domestic electricity feeds then we'd have a chance of actually charging them up in a night!
The original shift to diesel in such cars helped brands lower their average CO2 outputs across the range. Others, such as Aston Martin, took a different approach by offering a branded smaller city car like the Aston Martin Cygnet (Toyota IQ in a £40,000 disguise) to achieve this. SUVs are not renowned for their economy in petrol guise and so, where the traditional players in this market were starting to sell far more diesels than petrols, Porsche had little choice but to follow suit if they were to achieve higher sales numbers and to compete with other luxury SUV brands, especially when the VAG group had such good offerings in diesel technology.
But are large SUVs truly any more practical than a traditional large estate car, many of which can also be supplied with four-wheel drive if truly needed? Is there really any more usable space in a Range Rover Sport (for instance) than an Audi A6 Avant Quattro (again, for instance)? The trend towards SUVs seems to have spread from the States where they have the larger roads and the parking infrastructure to cope with such behemoths. Sadly, in the UK, larger SUVs are almost considered de rigueur in the countryside where roads are typically smaller than any roads they have in the States. The large SUV also presents a moving blindspot for anyone unfortunate enough to be stuck behind one and in some of our older car parks, they barely fit inside a space, much to the detriment of everyone else that wishes to park there.
No we don’t!
A 70kwhr car (only Tesla make one that big at the moment) can be fully charged from empty in ten hours (overnight) on a currently available 32amp charger. It’s also not very likely that such a vehicle is going to need to be fully charged from empty on many occasions in its lifetime.
Exactly - The truth is, they're not and they drive like vans... They're less economical too.
A number of my friends have SUVS (Discoverys or Range Rovers, another an X3) - None have as much floor space as my Golf Estate (Seats up or down) - The X3 and RR especially have surprisingly tiny boots with the rear seats up.
Exactly, that's my point... Porsche still make great sportscars, but increasingly people think of them as premium SUV makers instead.
As part of VAG, do Porsche need to be making SUVs? I don't see why... Audi can do the premium and VW the regular, with SEAT or Skoda picking up the 'budget' end.
Same with Lamborghini - OK, the LM002 was bonkers, but the Ursus just likes like a pimped Q7...
M
Sorry I meant the next generations on the horizon with twice or higher capacity.
Does this mean there is now going to be a stampede to buy Porsche Diesels?
That still won’t require anything more than we have today.
So with twice the capacity of the 70KWH Tesla, you would looking at a 600-800 mile range. Charge it to full once and then pop it on charge overnight each night and you would never have a problem with insufficient range.
Less we forget that the original Porsche's were in fact diesel tractors, however lets ignore that and all bow down and thank God.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
It's like the Oysterquartz all over again.
In what alternative universe and its physics?
A tall heavy SUV on long travel suspension is never going to be as stable a platform as the equivalent saloon / estate.
They are a triumph of marketing over good sense, the only real benefit I can see is the improved visibility from being higher.
I really like estate cars and have had a few but prefer the higher driving position of a "SUV", getting in and out is so much easier. The footprint isn't much different either. One of the posters above compared a Range Rover Sport and an Audi A6 estate - the Audi is actually a little longer and there's not much in it, width-wise either. Plus the RRS has 2 extra seats in the rear, which adds to the flexibility.
We've had a Toyota Landcruiser in the family for 15 years/150k miles (it's 20 years old/190k miles total now) and whilst it is nowhere near a modern SUV in terms of dynamics, it is the most flexible and reliable vehicle I've ever owned. (TBH this generation of Landcruiser is really a utility vehicle with a modicum of luxury, rather than modern "SUV"s which are the other way round).
Whether it is transporting 8 adults (yes, it is an eight seater), or a large wardrobe/sofas what have you, can even get 2 full-size MTBs in the back (albeit rear and middle row seat folded) upright and without removing wheels etc. ...... yes, fuel consumption isn't great but given the other points hardly worth worrying about.
I keep waiting for it to die so I can try something different but it takes everything I chuck at it in its stride and just keeps going and going......
Last edited by vagabond; 23rd February 2018 at 20:50.
Only the ones with stickers still on.
Have to agree with practically and excellent driving position, my venerable Honda has a lovely engine and does everything I want of it.
Sorry; I’m not convinced that there is huge scope to improve battery performance. I spent a couple of years involved in this area of technology- albeit a number of years ago and looking at applications for submarines and not cars- so I have some background in this area.
There are some serious issues with current lithium ion batteries which the media seems intent on ignoring E.g.
1. Sourcing the raw materials - largely lithium and cobalt. Largely from nice places like Columbia and Democratic Republic of Congo respectively.
2. Recycling- the technology to do this is vestigial at best.
I think these guys have the right idea.
It also looks better than a Porsche!
https://www.lamborghini.com/en-en/br...erzo-millennio
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Absolutely!
Even so I’m still convinced that hydrogen is the way ahead. Feel free to come back to me in 20 years if I’m wrong
I'll put a note in the diary now.
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So where is all this electricity going to come from,
The sun, wind or frankly burning fossil fuels in power stations far more efficiently than a car engine can.
Well, I can say with some experience that my Touareg is extremely stable at high speed, and in pretty much all driving conditions.
I probably wouldn't say quite the same of my Maserati.
So clever my foot fell off.
That was Lamborghini. Some of the early Porsche’s were literally tanks. Running on petrol. They did make tractors but that was rather later on.
Last edited by Padders; 24th February 2018 at 09:02.
No, they are not more practical, IMHO. Especially not in our inner cities, where driving and parking any car is a challenge already.
Some people really try to drive them in Amsterdam, endangering pedestrians and cyclists while doing so. I personally can't see the fun of them.
Lack of communication being mistaken for stability regarding an SUV v a sports car.
I'm not a massive fan of the average urban SUV as I do find that they are generally less practical than a mid to large estate car and therefore I don't really see the purpose. First time I was ever in a RR sport I was amazed by the reverse tardis effect.
In my view its a good thing that diesel is being dropped. Its always been rubbish but has been backed by the government who only ever had 1 eye on co2 ignoring all the negatives. There was never a future for diesel as the engines just got more complex and expensive without getting cleaner. The only trouble is that they are now shifting the heavy backing to EVs which I see going the same way as diesel in 20 years when the impact of production, disposal and long term fueling starts to become apparent.
I'd like to see more backing being given to hydrogen.
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Agree.
Whilst I totally disagree; it’s the biggest white elephant ever!
Why is that? I think hydrogen is a lot more efficient way to take energy with you than batteries. And if you generate it via "green" electricity, I think the environmental impact is not worse than battery operated vehicles. That is, unless we find a better way to produce those batteries.
Because converting electricity to hydrogen and then back to electricity is about 20% efficient whereas putting it straight into a battery is about 98% efficient.
Hydrogen storage is also inefficient because there isn’t a material available that will prevent hydrogen atoms escaping through it.
Dynamic charging of EVs with smallish batteries is the way forward. Imagine a contactless scalectrix and you’ll not be far off!
Can you see that ever happening because I can't.
Full EVs are the final destination. Increasingly efficient petrol hybrids are the stepping stone.
Thank God diseas-el has had its day. Ghastly stuff.
I see it happening on motorways and A roads eventually with batteries of 20-30kwhr for “off grid” driving.
Probably not within the next twenty years but once most people are driving electric then I think it’s the obvious solution.
Agree, efficiency maths suggests electric power much better, however not sure the full life cycle costs are that much different at the moment.........and if other ways of producing hydrogen can be developed (biomass) I think it has a future.
Production of hydrogen from electricity is relatively expensive. Most hydrogen is produced from natural gas. Production from bio-fuels or other fermentation methods are also possible.
Hydrogen storage is not an issue either - can be stored liquefied under pressure or adsorbed on metals.
Hydrogen storage remains a big issue. Large O&G companies have looked at it, but there are many engineering challenges to its widespread adoption. The more fundamental problem is the low energy density of hydrogen (g) or (l).
That isn't true - the 911 comfortably outsold the Cayenne in Europe and is only slightly behind in the USA.
Porsche's big seller at the moment is the Macan : 2017 sales > 26,500 European Macan sales vs 15,000 for the 911, 12,000 for the Cayenne, 10,500 for the Panamera and 8,500 for the 718 Cayman/Boxster. Even with the high Macan figure, the sports/saloon cars still account for around 50% of the Porsche output.
Last edited by UKMike; 24th February 2018 at 13:09.
We’re in the same boat, need a big SUV to tow a horse box with 2 heavy horses. Currently use a 5.7 Hemi Jeep on LPG, but my wife would quite like a pickup.
As I absolutely refuse to buy a diesel, it looks like we’ll be struggling to find a petrol powered crew cab pickup..
Needs to be RHD and be able to tow 3000kg
And what are the Cayenne V 911 figures prior to the Macan being released?
Not cut and dried with hydrogen, especially if it is produced from fossil fuels.
https://www.afdc.energy.gov/fuels/hy...roduction.html
Not new or even close but the Landcruiser Amazon (100 series) with the 4.7V8 fits the bill. 8 seats too...
I find the trouble with EVs is that even now it's not a realistic option for so many people due to range and other charging issues around peoples residences/parking. The concept and the reality has been around for decades, Peugeot did an all electric 205 in the late 80s. And while the technology has improved massively it still just doesn't seem to be cracked for solving the transport and lifestyle issues of so many people. There's been talk of huge range increases and dynamic charging for many years now but the technology is really moving at a snails pace despite all manufacturers and many governments getting behind it.
Genuine question, what's the hold up?
New tax system will force it. Simple really
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The will to get it done.
Sorted!
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