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That old dilema which should i choose
Have an Explorer 1 and a Sub, always loved the look of the 116520
Do like the old 40mm VC Chrono white dial , they are rarer better made but not sure about long term investment
My logic is if I buy the watch rather then investing it's something i can enjoy which will appreciate...
Caveat : please don't reply saying buy it for love not investment as both criterion are equally important to me
Crypto currencies.
Okay, ignoring the what suits your tastes best and focusing on potential, the white dial Stainless steel Daytonas have been the better investment in recent years. As we are talking investment, I think you are looking at the worst of the three recent models, the Zenith 16520 is incredibly popular, the new Ceramic also, but the 116520 is the runt of the litter.
Money in an ISA is a bit boring and probably only returning a few percent at best, having the watch will enable you to either keep it in a safe and enjoy owning it or even better wear it. If it increases in value over time, then great - but no guarantees.
I would buy that black dial 16520 full set on SC at present - that has potential.
Thanks for the reply how much is the one on SC ? I can’t access it
Cheers
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It has £17.5k in the heading. Full sets are now appearing in London dealers for £20k+.Originally Posted by mhurley
If I had zero savings or investments and zero watches I’d be putting it in to S&S. Beyond that it’s hard to say as everyones circumstances differ.
I'd go for the watch
Probably been said before (check the search function) e.g. Zenith Daytona,,, vfm??
Personally I would never buy a watch as an investment - I would invest in S&S probably in a wrapper ISA or bung it in the pension fund to get the tax break while they are available. Then with any spare cash buy trinkets like watches. I avoid heavy losses by buying second hand (typically). It all depends on your priorities I suppose.
Martyn
Think financial.
The golden rule is to spread your bets. You need readily accessible cash of say 3 - 6 months wages, You can then spread the rest between stock and shares and physical commodities such as gold, watches, classic cars etc.
The good news for you is that Daytonas usually sell easily so it's something you can liquidate quickly. However always and I mean always have at least 3 months cash for that inevitable rainy day before you invest.
Bloody hell - I only paid £7750 for my 16520 less than two years ago. I am pleasantly surprised.
Words to live by.
That’s how I approached it as my earning power increased:
Cash first
Then S&S ISA
Then alternative investments
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If buying a Daytona, then 16520s seem to be a better 'investment' than 116520s, although starting prices are higher.
Spot On.
Well the runt of the litter seems to still be doing ok at the moment. WF are asking £18,950 for an unworn 2015 black dial 116520. I seem to recall they had another unworn 116520 a few months ago for a couple of £k less.
Apologies, didn't mean to totally dismiss it out of hand. Certainly on the white dial version the black Sub rings on the Zenith and the Ceramic give far better visibility at first glance than the steel coloured rings of the 116520. This is of course less of an issue with the Black Dial.
All three models have gone completely bonkers price wise, but I think the Zenith and Ceramic more so - which was the point I suppose I was trying to make.
Apologies not required Ken. I agree about the visibility of the Zenith/Ceramic white dial versions and was recently reminded of one that got away!Apologies, didn't mean to totally dismiss it out of hand. Certainly on the white dial version the black Sub rings on the Zenith and the Ceramic give far better visibility at first glance than the steel coloured rings of the 116520. This is of course less of an issue with the Black Dial.
All three models have gone completely bonkers price wise, but I think the Zenith and Ceramic more so - which was the point I suppose I was trying to make.
Found a business card from a dealer in a jacket that I hadn't worn for ages. On the reverse were the details of the white 16520 I had tried on at the time:
16/10/15 - Zenith Daytona 1994 £8,250.
I thought I am not paying that, it's more than the new 116520 I am on a waiting list for.......
Oh well timing is everything.
I bought a white dial Zenith from Watches of Distinction in Dec 2016 for £9k dead, sold it on here a few weeks later for the same price. By Aug 17 WF were asking £17k for the same watch - 8 months later.
I think Mick is in the same boat, only he still has his. That will pay for many a night in the ex-pat bar
Thanks for all the input
Prefer white dial to black
Zenith is out of my price range so would have to be an in house although lookswise the black subdials look better
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Don't forget that if the Daytona increases in value by a lot, then there may be a capital gains charge when you dispose of it, so there is a tax advantage to the ISA. You can't ISA a watch, but it would be nice if you could.
I'd still have the Daytona and sod the investment.
I dithered on the watch Mick P bought. £7750 for a ‘proper’ P Series 2000 16520 boxed but no papers. Gut feel is he’d sell that on here, with the benefit of the service he had done for £13-15k
I managed to pick myself up a boxed 1996 mk4 dial in the end.
The 16520 looks a stellar investment from where I am sitting with the additional bonus of being a great watch to wear.
CGT does not apply to ‘wasting assets’ which watches are classed as. You would have have a tax liability if you speculated in a watch as an investment, however if you bought it because you liked it and it just happened to rise in value then you are ok....
When watches become about 'investment' everything gets distorted. The fun of the hobby is corrupted.
In all fairness, that statement is a two edged sword.
Some people will buy a Rolex at the drop of a hat because it is not really spending money. You can buy it, wear it and when you tire of it, sell it on, hopefully at break even or at a profit if you are lucky. It becomes, therefore, a non cost hobby.
Other people see it as distorting the hobby because genuine enthusiasts tend to get pushed out due to the "investors" moving in.
It is, of course, debatable as to which group are right.
I personally like my white 116520 though I seldom wear it.
I just went on WatchFinder to check the latest price on the aforementioned watch. A full set white is listed for £14,950, astonishing! I bought mine a shade under 7k about 20 months ago. I was thinking they were around 10k at the moment!!!
EDIT - looking through what is available, WF don't actually have that much once you filter out the gold/bi metal stuff. Only one white 116520. So clearly they are hard to come by.
Last edited by crazyp; 24th February 2018 at 12:17.
I get the impression the OP wants it as an enjoyable investment with some spare cash, whereas some of the replies are talking like its a pension..
I asked a similar question about 18 months ago about a 5513 as I had a small pension payout, since then the prices have continued to climb so it would have been a sound enjoyable investment, the key though is that this was spare/fun/punt cash not something that will be 100% needed for my retirement, thats a big differnce to money that will be needed for retirement.
A rise as rapid as that does rather make me concerned that this might be a bubble. It's always difficult to rationalise the market for things like this, The question is, what has changed in two years to more than double (nearly treble?) the price? Or more importantly for a prospective buyer, what's to stop the current price falling?
The real price is that you get locked into a narrow group of very 'samey' watches. The wider, and interesting , world of watches is lost to you. That's too high a hidden cost to me. No real fun at all.
And if I want a cost free hobby i'l go out walking in the countryside. Mind you, then you go to the pub, and......
Last edited by paskinner; 24th February 2018 at 13:16.
Yes I agree, prices have been on a roller lately and it is just not sustainable. It's either going to end in a stabalisation or even a crash for a year or two. However long term, the prices seem to be drifting upwards.
Over the last couple of years there have been some spectacular auction results not least the Newman which immediately dragged up the price of all Daytona’s, as long as interest rates stay low the clever money will still get pumped into rare commodities and those guys don’t speculate to lose money.
Interest rates go up mainly to control inflation and collectible commodities usually do well during inflation. I think there just comes a time when the market says enough is enough.
The market for mass produced steel chrono's by Rolex seems like a risky business to me.
I strongly feel the current price is heavily inflated.
These watches seem to be going up in price at enormous speed although: 1) they are not that old and; 2) they are not that rare.
Basically, we aren't talking about a 1965 105.003 Speedmaster, of which only a much smaller number was ever produced.
I'm afraid that as soon as the market changes (interest goes up), the prices of these pieces might go down fast.
Just my feeling...
If you are buying not just the Daytona but some of the other Rolex sports at the top end prices that most dealers are asking for, then you may take a big hit when market drop offs. There are some eye watering prices being asked out in the market for what are mass produced in the tens to hundreds of thousands, WF are asking £19k for an unworn 116520, watch club asking nearly £8k for a 114270 or £13k for a fat lady gmt.
In the short term you are lossing big money on these and even the long game, which will have to be long I believe to make that spend justified if you are looking to get your money back and some.
The 116520 I believe is overpriced in the current market and like some other sports could well take a downward hit before it levels out at a reduced price.
The chance of a quick buck always lowers the tone in any endeavour...
Last edited by Montello; 25th February 2018 at 11:13.
It's great all talking about watchfinder prices of watches etc what they list for .... 18950 for unworn 116520 on 2015
They just bid me 8350 to 8550 for 2015 fullset 5 year warranty !!! They said was correct figure as they have 13 steel Daytona in stock.
So in reality means bugger all
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Which others are you referring to that took downward turns? Maybe the BLNR? But I can't really think of SS Rolex that have had a correction downward, especially with discontinued models.
Interesting. We know they try some market manipulation, but this is a very good example of it. Also on how they list on their site, probably holding back stock to drum up interest and price.
Nobody seems interested in how Daytonas Vs Stocks have done historically...
You could have bought a Zenith Daytona for about USD $2,300 in 1988. I know nothing about Rolex prices but let's say you could sell that comfortable for, say.... $25,300 = £18,000 apx?
So you would have made 11x your money buying a Rolex 30 years ago. Don't forget to subtract service costs.
If you put your money in stocks, (say, the S&P500 index), you would have made more. The S&P500 is at 2750 today, Vs 250 in Jan 1988, but you would have also earned on average 2% a year in Dividends.
Assuming you reinvested these into the index you would have a total return of 19x your money.
In conclusion, buy real estate.
Interesting. To take the starting point (1988), I suspect the first fifteen years of that time period had much higher growth in property and stocks than the second half ('03-'18). Happy to be corrected. So is there a long-term slow down in these traditionally high return investments?
Property tends to require a much bigger outlay so not so easy to incrementally invest, in contrast with watches or stocks. This is a prime example of money going to money i.e. the rich can take advantage of the more lucrative investment opportunities.
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If you have investment property and a reasonable portfolio of shares then why not hold 5% in watches. Seems reasonable and a bit of fun.
What would be stupid would be to hold 10 to100% of your investment in watches.
I think recent history is tempting younger buyers on the investment ticket which may not work out.
Just had another Daytona thought.
Zenith bi colours appear to be selling for less on eBay than 116520s
So which makes the better long term investment?
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No one knows the answer to that. A lot of people think TT is plain bloody cheap looking and others like it. At the moment the former out number the latter by a significant degree. However it could change overnight. I suspect that the prejudice against TT is very deeply rooted and it will always be regarded as a bit iffy.
The 16520 & the 116520 will still increase in value simply due the fact that they are no longer on production.
The Daytona-C 116500 will prob not increase in value by much more, the only real increase will directly correlate to increase/adjustments in the retail price. I can also see the premium % dropping a little on the Daytona-C.
If the trend of upwards value continues I can see the PM Daytonas holding their values much better as many buyer will begin to see the bang the buck so to speak in PM
I was faced with a similar decision back when I bought my first Sub many years ago. I wasn't drowning in spare cash but was faced with either dropping £3k into a small savings/investment fund or buying a Sub. I'm very glad I did. There are very few opportunities in life where you can buy something which might give you a small return AND give you pleasure in its ownership and I think one would be silly not to jump at the chance. If only I could make similar decisions with cars :(
There's always the chance to to some mental gymnastics when it comes to selling it a few years down the line which makes it easier justifying it: lost a little money on it? - who cares, you bought it for the enjoyment and had many £££s worth of pleasure through owning and wearing it; had some capital appreciation? You're an investment genius.
Bought my Daytona brand new from an AD after being on the waiting list , paid £3670 which was list price at the time , had to justify the purchase to both myself and the dragon at the time .
As you said timing is everything....
I think a lot of people will be looking at the Two-Tone as they look good value for money currently and are not as unfashionable as they once were.
Cannot believe the current prices asked for the SS Zeniths !
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