What about the Froome case?

[Huertecilla]

Oh so beautiful the last stage of de Andalucian round. An ITT over largely dirt road through Pinzapo forest in Huelva on a wonderfully clear sunny day.
Realy special to see the pros race their time trials machines over the ever so typical local dirt roads.

The fight was between e Belgian and Dutchman which the former won with 8 seconds to spare.
Froome only 11th in the time trial. He was fast enough but lost his time by visibly (and sensibly) taking nóóó riscs trough the dirt corners.

[Huertecilla]

Still no progress with the Froome ´case´.

At the moment the classic Paris-Nice is in day 2 and obviously Froome is a talking point. Speculation is that is may take all season to reach a decision.
The Sky depth of pocket and thus and lawyers backing are mentioned as the hold up.
The concensus is not very positive as it shines such a negative light on the sport and it´s efforts to have a clean image.

Around the Andalucian round the security risk, fans throwing things at Froome, was mentioned.
It was a non issue here with Froome just about invisible but how about it in the Giro or Tour when Froome is more than a mere also ran?!

Would it be possible for an organiser to refuse an entry?

[MakeColdplayHistory]

Would it be possible for an organiser to refuse an entry?

On the basis that they can't provide rider safety at their own event?

[Huertecilla]

On the basis that they can't provide rider safety at their own event?

Yes.

[Huertecilla]

With the verdict about Wiggins in, it seems likely that Sky lawyers will ´win´ their case again.

This cannot be good for cycling. So. What to do?
Accept it because the law is the law however wrong the outcome, or have organisers any say in who attends their events?

[Omegamanic]

If there is no ‘cheating’ then they simply need to reflect on the rules which are allowing the cyclists to do what they are doing.

Reform is coming.

[Huertecilla]

If there is no ‘cheating’ then they simply need to reflect on the rules which are allowing the cyclists to do what they are doing.

I could not agree more!

Reform is coming.

I só hope.

[Martylaa]

Shame to say but he whole thing is tainted now...

[aldfort]

It's professional sport and operates at a level of human performance most of us ordinary souls cannot possibly understand.

Watch any pro-cyclist at the end of a stage to see the breathing difficulty they all endure.

[MrSmith]

very odd they have a group of MP’s investigating?? sounds like a witch hunt to me. i would like to see a group of sports people investigate MP’s morals/ethics/cheating/gerrymandering/tax dodging.
nobody is questioning the amount of Hydomorphone/Oxycodone/Prednisone that Venus/Serena Williams took out of competition which pales into insignificance compared to the ‘rule bending’ of Froome and Wiggins.
Cyclists are tested in and out of completion more than any other sports, its Tennis/rugby/athletics/boxingweightlifting that really need to clean their act up, they are still in the denial phase and shoot the messenger thinking of the doping problem in their sport.

i’m not a Sky apologist/enabler but the reality is the team pushed into a grey area of what is/is not allowed in competition. the likes of Landis and Michael Rasmussen who were part of team organised doping programs are now throwing their weight around asking for bans which is like saying that Sky (and others)are operating on the same moral/ethical standpoint as them. they obviously are not.
what should happen is WADA/UCI need to be clearer on what is/is-not allowed and how to legislate for anomalies (like Froomes levels of asthma drug).

[Omegamanic]

It's professional sport and operates at a level of human performance most of us ordinary souls cannot possibly understand.

Watch any pro-cyclist at the end of a stage to see the breathing difficulty they all endure.

Oh come on! That’s just the most ridiculous sentence. Watch any person exert themselves to their maximum and guess what - you will see “the breathing difficulty they all endure”.

[Omegamanic]

very odd they have a group of MP’s investigating?? sounds like a witch hunt to me. i would like to see a group of sports people investigate MP’s morals/ethics/cheating/gerrymandering/tax dodging.
nobody is questioning the amount of Hydomorphone/Oxycodone/Prednisone that Venus/Serena Williams took out of competition which pales into insignificance compared to the ‘rule bending’ of Froome and Wiggins.
Cyclists are tested in and out of completion more than any other sports, its Tennis/rugby/athletics/boxingweightlifting that really need to clean their act up, they are still in the denial phase and shoot the messenger thinking of the doping problem in their sport.

i’m not a Sky apologist/enabler but the reality is the team pushed into a grey area of what is/is not allowed in competition. the likes of Landis and Michael Rasmussen who were part of team organised doping programs are now throwing their weight around asking for bans which is like saying that Sky (and others)are operating on the same moral/ethical standpoint as them. they obviously are not.
what should happen is WADA/UCI need to be clearer on what is/is-not allowed and how to legislate for anomalies (like Froomes levels of asthma drug).

Anomolies lol - do you know what a usual level of Froomes asthma drug would normally look like? Do you know what Froomes usual levels used to look like? I guess anomolies is a good word. F’n cheat might be a good word too, or very very unfortunate, and unable to possibly repeat the same result might be. Hopefully the investigation will be very clear and pass the ban soon (as he surpassed the, very high, allowable level), and then they can amend the rules and provide guidance to try and stamp out the exceptionally wide spread use of ALL drugs that are solely used for performance advantage - that’s the more tricky part - if they want to stamp it out, then give lifetime bans for anyone involved or who bring their sports into disrepute.

I have no sympathy - they all know what they are doing and why!

[MrSmith]

Anomolies lol - do you know what a usual level of Froomes asthma drug would normally look like? Do you know what Froomes usual levels used to look like? I guess anomolies is a good word. cheat might be a good word too, or very very unfortunate, and unable to possibly repeat the same result might be. Hopefully the investigation will be very clear and pass the ban soon (as he surpassed the, very high, allowable level), and then they can amend the rules and provide guidance to try and stamp out the exceptionally wide spread use of ALL drugs that are solely used for performance advantage - that’s the more tricky part - if they want to stamp it out, then give lifetime bans for anyone involved or who bring their sports into disrepute.

I have no sympathy - they all know what they are doing and why!

I dont have sympathy either.
But the team should/would be aware of what level is legal, it got me thinking about dosage levels from an inhaler and how they vary (one of my clients makes a respiratory drug that is given through a nebuliser or inhaler, they have issues with dosage levels).
the facts are, he’s asthmatic, has a TUE but used his inhaler too much.
there is a level that is permitted and he was over it.

a banning offence? thats up to WADA/UCI (AND MAYBE ASO?)

are Froome/Sky another US Postal/Armstrong? No, they just cocked up.

personally i don't think he should be banned but i do expect some sanction to save face and to be seen doing something. a dirty doper? no, there is along list of miscreants who deserve that label more than Froome or Wiggins, plenty of them are still racing.

[Omegamanic]

I dont have sympathy either.
But the team should/would be aware of what level is legal, it got me thinking about dosage levels from an inhaler and how they vary (one of my clients makes a respiratory drug that is given through a nebuliser or inhaler, they have issues with dosage levels).
the facts are, he’s asthmatic, has a TUE but used his inhaler too much.
there is a level that is permitted and he was over it.

a banning offence? thats up to WADA/UCI (AND MAYBE ASO?)

are Froome/Sky another US Postal/Armstrong? No, they just cocked up.

personally i don't think he should be banned but i do expect some sanction to save face and to be seen doing something. a dirty doper? no, there is along list of miscreants who deserve that label more than Froome or Wiggins, plenty of them are still racing.

Could you edit my F in your quoted post for me please - I thought we were in the pit?

He was over the limit. The limit is seen as being quite bloody high. Very very few people get anywhere close to it on testing, and the testing from what I understand is reasonably consistent and repeatable with each person. I.E. they get very similar results from the same doses, not 4 or 5, or even 20 times higher! But hey, I’m sure they will look at all that before they ban him.

In my eyes the name or type of the drug shouldn’t matter. I know that there are many many athletes registered with conditions for convenience. They are, for the most part, not addressing life threatening conditions with therapeutic use - imho, not even close. It’s very convenient.

Until there is a central team of people with very very strict guidelines being the ones who determine that any proposed underlying condition can be part of a TUE, then it’s a farce, and far too easy to abuse. Additionally, there should be consideration on whether even if taken under a TUE if a substance provides a benefit or enhancement - because anything (that is taken and only available to some) that makes some competitors more competitive than others is just not on in my book.

[Meesterbond]

A whole load of issues here...

The Froome case - as I've said before, Sky / Froome would have to had be monumentally stupid to try and enhance his performance with Salbutamol. It's glows like hell and the benefits are questionable. That said, he was massively over the limit and unless he can come up with something cast iron to prove why he should get a ban.

The whole Sky / Wiggins thing is a bit of a mess... if Brailsford / Wiggins had come out and given their side of things early on, then they could have managed the whole situation a lot better. The Select Committee don't seem to have concluded that they've done anything illegal, just that they've been unethical - they've used the rules right up to the line. If this were Continental Europe, or if it were 10 years ago, it wouldn't have even got a mention, it's just that in the UK we look at doping far more as an ethical issue rather than a legal one. Unfortunately it will have tainted Bradley's Tour win amongst the British public and it will now be seen as similar to Lance in his US Postal days when really it's not even in the same ballpark as that. Sky's real problem was that they set themselves up to be whiter than white... something that it seems they eventually worked out was incompatible with cycling and winning Grand Tours. Claiming that they weren't going to employ anyone with an association to doping given the sport's recent history is an impossibility if you want anyone with any experience in pro-cycling.

The real shame will be if Sky (or 20th C. Fox or whoever finally owns the team) decide to cut their losses... with Wiggins, Hoy, Trott, Cav (almost) and the rest of this golden generation departing the sport it could set the growth of cycling in the UK as a whole back considerably.

[Huertecilla]

... with Wiggins, Hoy, Trott, Cav (almost) and the rest of this golden generation departing the sport

and Froome receiving a ban.

It is a mess Sky made.
The saddest of all is that they are making it worse still for themselves, Froome and the sport with the lawyers paid from their deep pockets.
There is a Dutch saying; zachte heelmeesters maken stinkende wonden and this totally applies to the way they are not grabbing this self bred bull by the horns.

[MrSmith]

If this were Continental Europe, or if it were 10 years ago, it wouldn't have even got a mention

Exactly. There are some seriously questionable riders still in the peloton and a lot of them would give you a Spanish or Italian style shrug with upturned palms and a nonchalant frown when it comes to 'pot belge'.
To them it’s just what you do and not 'cheating'.

[Saint-Just]

Apart from the fact that the pot belge was a rather crude way (and was legal at the time), no Spanish or Italian team took the sort of whiter-than-white commitment that Sky took.
But it implies not losing paperwork.

[aldfort]

Oh come on! That’s just the most ridiculous sentence. Watch any person exert themselves to their maximum and guess what - you will see “the breathing difficulty they all endure”.

Read what I wrote. This is way beyond just panting. The body position, particularly in a time trial puts real stress on the respiratory system. How many times have you pushed yourself to that level? If you haven't how can you possibly know?

[catch21]

Read what I wrote. This is way beyond just panting. The body position, particularly in a time trial puts real stress on the respiratory system. How many times have you pushed yourself to that level? If you haven't how can you possibly know?

So why cycling? If it is this injurious to health maybe the whole sport should be banned? Maybe, just maybe, some of us might be a tiny bit sceptical that there is actually anything really wrong with a lot of these guys, and that the drugs might be being used to gain an advantage. "It's not illegal" doesn't seem much comfort to the youngsters who want to enter the sport clean and frankly can't compete with the dopers.

[skmark]

Oh dear......too many 'armchair experts' being whipped up by media manipulation, oh so quick to vent their historic prejudices and unfounded viewpoints.

It's like Brexit all over again! I hope that such 'experts' don't get to have any input into this issue to protect our sportsmen/women ending up in a similar mess that our country now finds itself in.

[MrSmith]

Are you Dr Michael Ashenden? or just another armchair expert?

[aldfort]

So why cycling? If it is this injurious to health maybe the whole sport should be banned? Maybe, just maybe, some of us might be a tiny bit sceptical that there is actually anything really wrong with a lot of these guys, and that the drugs might be being used to gain an advantage. "It's not illegal" doesn't seem much comfort to the youngsters who want to enter the sport clean and frankly can't compete with the dopers.

Good idea. The UK should make it illegal for their citizens to enter any sort of cycling championship. We can lead the world by showing them we know better about these things because it's written in the British Press in black and white that UK team and UK athletes "cheat" but nobody else does it.
MP's are of course experts, unlike the people who actually write the rules, carry out the dope tests, do the training so they can compete at international level.

Media manipulation pure and simple - why is the question, what else is going on that they don't want on the front page?

[catch21]

Good idea. The UK should make it illegal for their citizens to enter any sort of cycling championship. We can lead the world by showing them we know better about these things because it's written in the British Press in black and white that UK team and UK athletes "cheat" but nobody else does it.
MP's are of course experts, unlike the people who actually write the rules, carry out the dope tests, do the training so they can compete at international level.

Media manipulation pure and simple - why is the question, what else is going on that they don't want on the front page?

Bit of a sense of humour failure but there you are. Question is, if you (or one of your children) didn't have asthma would you want to take part in a sport either proven to give you asthma and requiring drugs or didn't give you asthma but required you to take unnecessary drugs to compete with the rest? And your logic "it's ok because everyone else does it" is bizarre.

If you wouldn't be prepared to take part, or be happy that your children take part, then it's an odd stance to take to think it's acceptable for others to muck up their bodies for your entertainment.

I don't get it and with that, I'm out.

[Huertecilla]

Apart from the fact that the pot belge was a rather crude way (and was legal at the time), no Spanish or Italian team took the sort of whiter-than-white commitment that Sky took.
But it implies not losing paperwork.

You nailed it.

My son is an avid sporter, both rock climbing and cycling. Het does not have the build, the talent or whatever else it takes but he is serious, pushes himsélf. He was súch a fan of Sky with their above board honourable approach and perfectionism. He was a HÚGE Froome fan.
He is disappointed beyond measure.
About losing the records he says that losing his project map gets him a zero for that trimester; that the proof that he has done it all lies with hím.
About Froome he is with OmegaM and SJ.
All in all there is nó wáy he would never ever enter in a cycling competition anymore. Ok, mtb together with me excepted but that is not competing but taking part.

Sky dropped the ball.
If I would allow it, I would find it reallyREALLY galling to see them in the Paris - Nice. I have to bock them/that out to enjoy the event. Froome at the front of the Giro or TdF, well, rather hard to ignore so more time still for other fun things.

[Meesterbond]

Bit of a sense of humour failure but there you are. Question is, if you (or one of your children) didn't have asthma would you want to take part in a sport either proven to give you asthma and requiring drugs or didn't give you asthma but required you to take unnecessary drugs to compete with the rest? And your logic "it's ok because everyone else does it" is bizarre.

If you wouldn't be prepared to take part, or be happy that your children take part, then it's an odd stance to take to think it's acceptable for others to muck up their bodies for your entertainment.

I don't get it and with that, I'm out.

I think you probably need to read up on exercise-induced asthma before making such comments... firstly, exercise doesn't 'give you asthma' it restricts the airways in the same way that asthma does. Secondly, there's nothing particularly special about cycling - any strenuous exercise, particularly those in cold air or with a high pollen count... such as, for example, the French Alps in July can cause it... but it could just as well be Hackney Marshes in February.

If the option was that my kids risk exercise-induced asthma by taking part in sports they enjoy or sit around on the x-box all day, then bring on the Ventolin.

[Huertecilla]

If the option was that my kids risk exercise-induced asthma by taking part in sports they enjoy or sit around on the x-box all day, then bring on the Ventolin.

Participating in sports activities and sport as a profession are rather different, please do not mix them up. Never mind doubling a for asthma already silly high max level at the sharp end of the pro sport.

[Meesterbond]

Participating in sports activities and sport as a profession are rather different, please do not mix them up. Never mind doubling a for asthma already silly high max level at the sharp end of the pro sport.

Are they?
If I beast myself climbing Alp d'Huez then I'm working my body just as hard as a pro... I'll just get to the top 20 minutes later at 200 fewer watts. If I'm predetermined to exercise-induced bronchoconstriction, I'll still get it, even if I'm not in a pro-peloton, particularly if it's cold.

[Huertecilla]

Are they?
If I beast myself climbing Alp d'Huez then I'm working my body just as hard as a pro... I'll just get to the top 20 minutes later at 200 fewer watts. If I'm predetermined to exercise-induced bronchoconstriction, I'll still get it, even if I'm not in a pro-peloton, particularly if it's cold.

Ah well, where there is no will, there is no way.
By all means use it.
By all means let it be used for TUE.
Automatic ban of the rider for exceeding the limit.
Automatic ban of the team for any lack of documentation or alike.

Medical use should not be a whitewash for drug abuse.

Oh and don´t play the victim. I live on meds and pain killer for an arm long list of things I busted. I take double dose when sporting. Still right that pros with such levels of crap will receive a ban.
When entering any competition I don´t take any btw. Yes, that lowers my everything and performance, also keeps me from going over limits of my body.
Pro sport adds a monetary motivation and as such med levels should be moderate. Imo the permitted salbutamol level is too high. Doubling the current silly high max means exit imo.

[Meesterbond]

Ah well, where there is no will, there is no way.
By all means use it.
By all means let it be used for TUE.
Automatic ban of the rider for exceeding the limit.
Automatic ban of the team for any lack of documentation or alike.

Medical use should not be a whitewash for drug abuse.

Oh and don´t play the victim. I live on meds and pain killer for an arm long list of things I busted. I take double dose when sporting. Still right that pros with such levels of crap will receive a ban.
When entering any competition I don´t take any btw. Yes, that lowers my everything and performance, also keeps me from going over limits of my body.
Pro sport adds a monetary motivation and as such med levels should be moderate. Imo the permitted salbutamol level is too high. Doubling the current silly high max means exit imo.

I think we're talking at cross purposes.
I was referring to an earlier point which seemed to imply that cycling gave you asthma which is complete nonsense. I'm certainly not playing the victim, I've no idea where you got that idea from.

I guess you could think that the fact that people are getting so wound up about what is, in the history of the sport, a couple of pretty minor infractions is quite positive. Show's how far things have come from the 90's and 2000's when each Grand Tour would start with a series of revelations about who's blood bags had been found in which doctor's fridge and on each rest day you'd find out who'd been popped in the previous week.

[Saint-Just]

Question: can anyone become a top athlete?
Answer: no. Mother Nature is not very egalitarian

Question: do all cyclists have asthma, or “exercise induced asthma”?
Answer: no. That Mother Nature can be a bitch sometimes.

So, if you need drugs to compete allegedly “on a levelled playing field”, you are cheating yourself as the playing field is not levelled, never was, never will.

[MrSmith]

I guess you could think that the fact that people are getting so wound up about what is, in the history of the sport, a couple of pretty minor infractions is quite positive. Show's how far things have come from the 90's and 2000's when each Grand Tour would start with a series of revelations about who's blood bags had been found in which doctor's fridge and on each rest day you'd find out who'd been popped in the previous week.

i remember watching Vino storming that climb in the alps the day after having a big crash, it was nuts, like a big charade that everyone was in on except the general public.

here is a news extract from 2007:

"THE Tour de France was plunged into its biggest crisis on Tuesday when it was revealed that Alexandre Vinokourov, the pre-race favourite and winner of two of the last three stages, had failed a dope test after Saturday's time trial in Albi which he won by more than a minute.

In a tour that was meant to be beyond suspicion, the Kazakh is facing a two-year ban and the overall leader, Michael Rasmussen, is under suspicion for missing two out-of-competition tests and faces allegations of drug use.

Vinokourov's Astana team — which he founded by bringing together sponsors in Kazakhstan — immediately announced its withdrawal from the tour, sparking further speculation that others in the squad were under suspicion.

An Astana spokesman said that two distinct types of red blood cells were found in Vinokourov's sample, indicating he had had a blood transfusion from a compatible donor shortly before Saturday's time trial.”


yes the sport has come a long way and is head and shoulders above other sports (athletics/tennis/rugby in particular) in trying to eradicate doping, still room for improvement though.

[Huertecilla]

Getting to be ludicrous now:
Still an open case and Froome is set to compete in the Tour des Alpes.

I do wonder what the issue is.
The infraction seems clear.
Is it ´just´ Sky´s legal team stretching it for as long as they can? That is their right ofcourse but is that in anyone´s interest? Cannot see it being in their´s either.

[Andyg]

Good idea. The UK should make it illegal for their citizens to enter any sort of cycling championship. We can lead the world by showing them we know better about these things because it's written in the British Press in black and white that UK team and UK athletes "cheat" but nobody else does it.
MP's are of course experts, unlike the people who actually write the rules, carry out the dope tests, do the training so they can compete at international level.

Media manipulation pure and simple - why is the question, what else is going on that they don't want on the front page?

Well said.

[MakeColdplayHistory]

Still an open case and Froome is set to compete in the Tour des Alpes and anything else. That is their right of course.

Once again, we agree.

[cmcm3]

Had a weird dream last night that I worked in an office with Froome. He kept accusing me of shagging his missus and was trying to turn people against me so I knocked him out. Weird.

[BadgerUK]

Question: can anyone become a top athlete?
Answer: no. Mother Nature is not very egalitarian

Question: do all cyclists have asthma, or “exercise induced asthma”?
Answer: no. That Mother Nature can be a bitch sometimes.

So, if you need drugs to compete allegedly “on a levelled playing field”, you are cheating yourself as the playing field is not levelled, never was, never will.

I don't think it is right that people can take drugs for asthma (cycling) or heart conditions (tennis) to allow them to compete in professional sport. Or any other drug for other medical condition.

People should compete drug free and that means any drug, including pain killers, cortisone injections etc.

Otherwise you let people take whatever they like, no restrictions. Sport is either clean or not clean.

If asthma means you cannot compete as a professional cyclist - tough luck.

[Omegamanic]

Had a weird dream last night that I worked in an office with Froome. He kept accusing me of shagging his missus and was trying to turn people against me so I knocked him out. Weird.

Ah but did you enjoy it?

[Huertecilla]

If asthma means you cannot compete as a professional cyclist - tough luck.

The keyword being ´professional´.

[Argon]

I don't think it is right that people can take drugs for asthma (cycling) or heart conditions (tennis) to allow them to compete in professional sport. Or any other drug for other medical condition.

People should compete drug free and that means any drug, including pain killers, cortisone injections etc.

Otherwise you let people take whatever they like, no restrictions. Sport is either clean or not clean.

If asthma means you cannot compete as a professional cyclist - tough luck.

I agree.

[MakeColdplayHistory]

ASO block Froome's registration for the TdF. Sky to appeal (hearing on Tuesday).

[thieuster]

Great! That's a good call from ASO. Now... that makes Dumoulin's position as being the correct & moral winner of the Giro even stronger.

[MrSmith]

I don't think it is right that people can take drugs for asthma (cycling) or heart conditions (tennis) to allow them to compete in professional sport. Or any other drug for other medical condition.

People should compete drug free and that means any drug, including pain killers, cortisone injections etc.

Otherwise you let people take whatever they like, no restrictions. Sport is either clean or not clean.

If asthma means you cannot compete as a professional cyclist - tough luck.

i totally disagree, i support this team and what they are doing for sportspeople with diabetes

https://www.teamnovonordisk.com

[josep]

Case dropped:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/44679483

[MakeColdplayHistory]

Case dropped:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/44679483

So I guess he's now free to ride in the TdF and also the the correct & moral winner of the Giro.

[ptcoll]

Case dropped:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/44679483

They are going to have to say why at some point soon.

Pete

[benny.c]

The ASO and The Badger wont be happy!

[PickleB]

The ASO and The Badger wont be happy!

Twas but yesterday...Organisers want Chris Froome out of the Tour de France:

Christopher Froome, a four-time winner of the Tour de France, might not be able to compete for a fifth title this year. The organisers do not want him to be part of the race due to depart on July 7.

Le Monde has learnt that the race’s owner, Amaury Sport Organisation (ASO), is trying to prevent Froome from taking part in the Tour. They have forbidden Team Sky to sign Froome in, in an attempt to protect their own image, as his doping procedure is still pending.

[farquare]

Drama!

[benny.c]

Twas but yesterday...Organisers want Chris Froome out of the Tour de France:

Christopher Froome, a four-time winner of the Tour de France, might not be able to compete for a fifth title this year. The organisers do not want him to be part of the race due to depart on July 7.

Le Monde has learnt that the race’s owner, Amaury Sport Organisation (ASO), is trying to prevent Froome from taking part in the Tour. They have forbidden Team Sky to sign Froome in, in an attempt to protect their own image, as his doping procedure is still pending.

Yeah, CF may have a few more TdF wins in him and the ASO will do all they can to see he doesn’t surpass The Badger.