A question for real world viewers (rather than AV enthusiasts) . I'm looking at getting a new TV. My research suggests all TV's in the mid price range are 4k so it appears the quality of the way they output HDR is the defining factor ?
I'm looking for real world experience on whether having better quality HDR on the TV has much of an impact on sources such as Bluray & Freeview HD.
I've been recommended the Sony XE range as that apparently handles sports motion well but would be particularly keen to hear where TZ'er chose to under buy. That is went for a cheaper model in a range and whether they subsequently were pleased or regretted their decision
Any advice appreciated
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Hi. Only Netflix and YouTube stream UHD at the moment. All other channels are at best HD. The 4K (UHD) are quite amazing - I would guess Blu-ray are UHD too. I have a Sony 4K and very happy - cost me about £700 for a 42” screen. Unless you want OLED and super large screens (costing you 2-3K) I can’t see why you want to spend more than that.
I have a budget Samsung in the bedroom which has 4K and HDR, the 4K is brilliant and the HDR does help the 'cheap' panel perform with an improved contrast ratio.
If I had a choice between HDR and OLED I would go for OLED if possible, there is more technology behind that and will bring better image quality.
You'll get an LG 55" OLED for c£1,500 (I'm pretty sure) especially now as retailers clear 2017 stock for the 2018 models.Originally Posted by MartynJC (UK)
Thanks for that but my budget is £800 so an OLED is not an option for me
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I have the 55 inch version of this and it’s great, the 49 inch is in your budget
https://m.johnlewis.com/samsung-ue49...ilver/p3194310
Thanks for that. Did you consider any other models either cheaper or more expensive before making your choice
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What is the actual difference between this model and an OLED model at three times the price? Is the latter really three times better? I have an old 50" Panny plasma that's maybe a little tired now so am looking.
Yes :D
OLED is 3 times better for sure
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I bought a Sony X83C 49" for £500 a few months back and have been very happy with it.
If TV is incredibly important to you then I could see an argument for spending a couple of thousand on an OLED, but for 99% of things a 4K HDR LCD for £500 will be perfect.
My understanding is that Freeview HD and Blu-ray do not support HDR, so unlikely you will notice difference from those sources from a HDR perspective.
That said, TVs in your price range would come with support for on-line streaming services such as Netflix, BT sport and Prime etc that do output some content in HDR.
I have a mid level LG tv that supports HDR and the pictures look great when I view HDR content on Amazon Prime. It’s not as good when compared to my higher end Samsung HDR tv, but you need them side by side to notice and mostly then it’s in certain scenes more than others.
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wait a bit and they will be falling out of the trees now 8k is launched and soon to be in the shops
Not all HDR tv's are equal.
HDR pushes a TV to the absolute limits in terms of brightness - measured in NITS - try to get a TV with as much NITS capacity as possible.
HDR and WCG (Colour Gamut) also introduces a much wider colour palette - try to get a TV that has at least over 80%, some HDR tvs only manage 60%.
Make sure you get a TV with a 10 bit panel, and not 8 bit
Thanks for that. You are helping to confirm my thinking that I may get away with a mid price TV.
The online reviews are quite helpful to a point but like car reviews you are not certain of the baseline for the reviewer. it can sometimes be difficult to see how much of a problem the issues they identify are
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Thanks for that. Is there a minimum no of nits I shouldn't go below and is the scale straight line ? For example is there much difference between say 450 and 500 or would I need to double to 900 to notice any real difference
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Peak brightness
Native contrast
Contrast with local dimming
Grey uniformity
Black uniformity
Colour gamut
Gradient
Colour volume
So many things to look at/rate.
Then you have viewing angle/screen type (VA vs IPS). Then the differences between oled, qled and standard led lcd (oled has fantastic black reproduction, and localised dimming as each pixel has its own light, qled for peak brightness due having a backlight, and contrast ratio due to the quantum dot tech).
Hi Martyn
Sky also broadcasts some PL football and "recorded" movies on Sky Q 2TB (but not Q mini boxes)in UHD.
I have an LG Oled and believe I can tell the difference!
I did and read a lot of reviews and this one seemed like the best value to me in terms of features versus price
Don't forget to check for Dirty Screen Effect i had to return to separate LG 4K UHD sets its a problem with the screen that can be noticed when watching Football,cricket or any kind of programming that has bright imagery its caused by uneven screen coating of the anti reflective material that gives a clouding or dirty appearance very noticeable when watching football and other sports i literally had to force Currys/PC World into letting Me exchange TV sets as they acknowledge its a problem but they are not obliged to accept the tv set as being faulty.This was also well within the first 7 days of purchase i even wrote to two of the major technology magazines ,Stuff and T3 to start a debate as it is quite prevalent in many lower end ranges of known brands and also can afflict some high/mid end OLED screens,the magazines still to this haven't had the courtesy to issue a reply.A lot of Our forum contributors consider forking out over £500 for a television,a major expense and they deserve to have a nice fault free set.Just check the various Home entertainment forums.
For the actual HDR standards it is up past 1000 odd iirc. But tbh my Sony probably only does 400 tops and I can see the effect with my Xbox One X. Even 400 is pretty bright tbh though the effect will not be so pronounced. VA panels give better blacks hence why a lot of HDR TVs use those panel types but you then need to sit straight on to the tv as the viewing angle washes out the picture the more at an angle you are. IPS panels have better angles but less with the blackness.
Forgot to mention what reecie bought up a very important point.
Samsung’s 7000 series are pretty good imo (I’ve got a 43ks7500). They do proper HDR1000, unlike some of the cheaper “HDR” ones - as has been said, to get proper HDR, you need to have deep blacks and bright whites - certainly when I was looking in 2016/17 many of the cheaper HDR panels suffered from poor blacks, dim whites, and poor viewing angles. You got none of the benefits of HDR - in fact it looks worse if not done properly.
OLEDs have by far the best blacks and viewing angles, but aren’t as bright as some of the newest LED lit panels. In regular viewing conditions, they are plenty bright enough though.
Whether they’re worth 2/3 times a basic set is anybody’s guess, but there’s absolutely no doubt they look better the the vast majority of LED panels.
As far as I can see - Sky Q does not use HDR. Something can be UHD but not HDR - one is about resolution, the other is about colour and brightness.
OP - for reference I bought a Sony KD-49XD8305 last year (or was it the year before now?) - very happy. I think there is now an updated version available for around £500-600 on amazon. I like Sony for the realism and colours - there a some audio-visual forums you can get advise on the 'best' settings as the out-of-the-box may not be to your taste.
- reviewed here - http://www.techradar.com/reviews/aud...06159/review/3
Martyn
Last edited by MartynJC (UK); 8th February 2018 at 10:10.
My Panasonic plasma, nearly ten years old, faces south, and in the slanting winter sun I can't watch it in the afternoon. The picture is flooded out. In fact the sun stops the remote signal from working.
I’m not convinced even 1000nit+ LED-lit panels will look any good in direct sunlight.
OLED are definitely best in typical (ie cloudy or dark) UK lighting - where some of the newer non-OLEDs must seem insanely bright.
Thanks for that. I'll do some research
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Thanks for this. You have highlighted one of my concerns in the bulk of my source material will be non HDR I.e Freeview HD, BT sport, Bluray DVDs so getting it right for these is more important for me than outright ultimate quality. Hence the title for the thread. Hopefully I should be able to do this for around half the price of an OLED ?
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I’m buying a new 49” 4K TV today to replace an 8 year old Panny that has served us well.
Every TV I have viewed in John Lewis is an order of magnitude better than our old Panny.
But, the difference between a new cheap and expensive 4K TV is minimal to my eyes.
So my hard earned went on a 4K Toshiba 49” from John Lewis for £349 with the obligatory 5 year guarantee.
Made by Vestel in Turkey (as a lot of the peripheral brands are these days), but that hasn’t put me off, as I get 5 years warranty.
The jump from my old TV is so large, that it makes no sense to pay 2 or 3 times the price of the Toshiba for a small incremental improvement that the better brands may offer.
HDR1000 is a Samsung marketing term, and has to do with how bright the TV gets, and not necessarily the way HDR works. There are two competing standards for HDR right now, Dolby Vision and HDR10 (four if you count the not yet released HLG and HDR10+). Yes, the HDR TV you may be considering or already bought may already be out of date. HDR10 is in all of the HDR sets, its the baseline format, Dolby Vision is in a smaller subset. Samsung and Panasonic have decided not to support it, and are working on HDR10+, which will be similar but without the licensing fees Dolby adds. Apple, Sony, and LG all support Dolby Vision.
HLG is a planned backward compatible standard, that may be able to be added to exiting HDR sets via firmware to support some of the expanded feature set as well. Nobody knows for sure, its still being developed.
What this means in reality is that I wouldn't make strong decisions of value just on HDR alone. Get a set that fills your needs first, then consider how HDR fits in, if at all. Certainly don't plan that it will be the best and brightest forever.
When I was looking last year, the issue was that although quite a few sets were compatible with HDR10 (confused my terms before) and DV, the panels didn’t have deep enough blacks and bright enough whites to actually produce proper HDR. I also think some had a narrower range of colours. A good example was an LG set I had originally - nominally, it had DV, but it looked absolutely awful (no matter how I tweaked it). I meant you had to be careful not to buy a HDR set that wasn’t really “proper” HDR.
Unless I’ve misread the recent reviews, I think there are still a lot of cheaper sets that don’t really achieve HDR standards.
This bit is tricky. Partly because HDR is so new there isn't an accepted measure of performance. The idea is to have a greater range from dark content to bright content in the image. One way to do that is to make the dark stuff darker, ie OLED. Another way is to make the bright content brighter, ie high output LED. But, how do you measure the two, is it a better thing to have a really super level of brightness, but not be able to get really black? Or is it better to get really great black, and high brightness, but not to that super high level? Right now you really cant have both.
My favorite of the HDR TVs, the one I think looks the best, is the Sony A1E. It (and the LG TV its based on, the B7) has exceptionally deep and detailed black, and carries a peak brightness just under 700 cd/m2. The Samsung Q9F QLED sets can get peak brightness levels over 1100 cd/m2, but the detail in dark images is lacking. And then you have mid level sets, like the Vizio M series, around 400 cd/m2 of peak brightness and with the same darkness limitations as the Samsung.
All of these TVs will display HDR content, and the result will be a picture with broader differences from light to dark; but they all won't look the same, that's not how it works.
To be fair, it’s not that tricky. The dynamic range is the difference between the darkest and lightest parts of the picture (broadly the contrast ratio, but zero black OLEDs make this measure slightly problematic). You can do it either with darker darks or lighter lights! (Ideally with a smooth gradation). Similarly the colour gamut can be measured.
The issue is that some sets labelled HDR don’t achieve anywhere near the required levels of contrast or colour depth to make the image “pop”. Certainly last year, there were quite a few of these sets, the cheaper LG IPS-based panels being a good (bad) example.
Admittedly, the OLED approach and QLED approach produce a different look, as one is based on bright whites, and the other on dark blacks, but it just means OLED tend to look better into darker rooms, and QLED (or similar) in lighter.
They said that 5 years ago!
I'm using the Panasonic TX50CX802b, which is a couple of years old and available for good prices. For HDR 4K you need an external box like the Apple TV 4K (on this particular 'internet ready' TV the apps on the TV won't give you HDR, a flaw that makes it relatively cheap for what it is if you have the Apple box). Amazon Prime Video and Netflix in 4K HDR can look pretty spectacular. I believe the more expensive of the two SkyQ boxes also offers some 4K but it's pricey pay per view stuff. Given a 4K blu-ray player and discs you can also use that as a source but that's quite an expensive way to go about it, the discs are twice the price of HD ones. You can rent and buy 4K movies from iTunes for less, which won't be quite the same quality but is still likely to impress given the quality of normal UHD HDR streaming.
Set up really is everything. You will get into all kinds of trouble if you have the wrong HDMI leads, they need to be rated for this kind of speed, preferably Dolby Vision capable, don't just use your old ones. You'll also need fast broadband for streaming. The TV itself needs to be expertly set up too, consult online guides. Out of the box all TVs look terrible as they have loads of stupid 'Ultra Auto AI Super Intelligent Colour Boost Picture Remaster Pro' type settings turned on, all of which need to be turned off it you want to see the film as intended by its creators. Backlight, contrast etc. also need to be carefully adjusted. Why they don't just supply them with the settings adjusted correctly is anyone's guess! (NB I've worked in the film and TV industry for many years so I'm not just making this stuff up, the idea is that the TV should exactly match what the director and colourist were looking at in the colour grading suite, 'improving' the picture does not generally improve it!)
The use of HDR is really in the experimental stage, as film makers work out what they want to do with it creatively. Its use can sometimes be a bit gimmicky and you do not always want to be blinded by the super bright light from a window, or a door opening to reveal the outside sunlight. Setting up the TV so it's comfortable helps with this, and keeps the scene natural while still taking advantage of the increased range. I've been impressed by Goliath on Prime, and (nerd alert) Star Trek Discovery on Netflix where the spaceship is essentially art directed to be an HDR environment, full of moody spaces lit by glowing lights. For me though not every scene in every film has to be an HDR showcase, it's a useful tool but if it's overused it becomes a restrictive high contrast look that isn't always what the scene requires.
Thanks for taking the time to provide a detailed response. Its much appreciated. Can I please ask how does this TV cope with motion on sports e.g. any blurring or haloing with football ?
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I’ve been following the thread…. I am a lot more conscious of sound when telly watching, so, have invested far more on that aspect, but, am considering a switch to Sky Q and have Netflix also….
My question… I have one HDMI into my chosen panel leading from my AV Amp…. Will the 4K input pass through the AV in that format and output a 4K signal to the telly?
Ben
Down to the receiver inputs. They need to be hdmi 2.0 (2.0a for hdr) and support hdcp 2.2
Thanks... will have a look... not sure I can justify upgrading the Yamaha amp if they’re not! (It’s about 6 years old, but, still sounds great)
Depends on what receiver you have. Newer models will have it, older ones may not.
But you could always connect the Sky Q directly to the TV with HDMI and use the HDMI ARC from the TV to the receiver, that way the receiver only receives the audio. But your TV would need to have an ARC enabled HDMI out port.
Yeah... I had considered this option too, but, put other things other than the Sky q through the receiver and can only run one cable
The other thing is that i considered is that I’m fixed with my HDMI cable (buried in wall), but i hear that older HDMI cables will support 4K anyway - it’s just marketing relating to ones that are “4K ready”
Not necessarily, some of the lesser quality and possibly older cables cannot handle the 18GBps bandwidth that is required for 4k/HDR/Dolby Atmos type information. Its best to get a certified high speed cable (that doesn't mean expensive - the Omars cables from Amazon are fine)
I don’t see any motion artefacts on sports as I have all the daft ‘picture improvement’ settings turned off. It’s amazing how well TV’s work these days if you turn off junk like ‘intelligent frame creation’.
One solution is to go the other way round, send the HDMI direct to the TV and if your TV has an optical out send that to the amp. If that doesn’t work, buy an HDMI matrix switcher from Amazon, one with an optical out. You have to find one that works ok but I’ve been able to send the audio to the amp which plays Dolby digital ex and other good surround formats, and you can also then switch between more sources than you have inputs on the tv.
Sorry you can get prime in hdr on this, my mistake thought this was the 55” which does hdr
Yes but only using an external streaming box, not the app on the tv itself. You have to have recent firmware and enable HDR for the relavant input in the settings menu. I think there are TVs with brighter maximum levels but for me this has easily enough. The generation after probably can do it from the app on the tv, but I think an external box of whatever flavour makes more sense in the end.
I didn’t pay a lot for my cable, I worked on the principle that a digital signal is a digital signal... I’m commited now as it’s buried in the wall! I have no idea how high the quality is...!
It means an additional cable between the TV and the box... my box is hidden in a widow box seat and I have a 5m cable buried in the wall going to the telly, so, I’m a bit restricted without major engineering
I always like a project though!
That would have saved me a few quid if I’d seen it earlier!
Have to say Altered Carbon in Netflix is looks pretty sweet in 4K HDR.
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