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Thread: Carillion ?

  1. #1
    Craftsman
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    Carillion ?

    Will they get the bank treatment with a bale out or will their 17,000 staff be in the employment exchange next week. Not a good situation whatever the outcome

  2. #2
    Grand Master Andyg's Avatar
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    Highly unlikely any of the 17000 will lose their jobs, unless the Gov want to close prisons, operating theatres, etc - so their jobs will TUPE over to whoever takes over responsibility.

    Those much more likely to lose their jobs are the senior management and those in marketing and tresuary departments. Shame!

    The company is a cash cow with lots of assets and guaranteed income,so once the pension issue is resolved (I.e. By the tax payer), then other companies will come knocking.

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
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  3. #3
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    I sincerely hope those in the accounts dept donít get paid and see how they like it, we used to do a lot of contracts for Carrilion and not once did they pay on time ever. They also had the unwritten rule that if you took them to court for late payment you would never do work for them again, finally pushed me too far and I severed all ties couldnít happen to a nicer mob imo.

  4. #4
    Grand Master JasonM's Avatar
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    Iím on a trade type Facebook group and there are loads of guys with the same story ^
    Cheers..
    Jase

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonM View Post
    Iím on a trade type Facebook group and there are loads of guys with the same story ^
    Theyíre famous for it, I ended up cutting power to a building and starting to take all our equipment back to get paid then severed all ties because this isnít the pit I wonít say exactly what they are but c u next Tuesdays sums it up nicely

  6. #6
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    More often not will be getting screwed by the end client. Agree this shouldn't be passed on to subcontractors though.

  7. #7
    Considering that a large part of their work is for the government in one form or another ,it defies belief that no one from the clients management team has conducted "Due diligence tests" on their financial affairs and standing before awarding any contracts.

  8. #8
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    Did they blame Brexit yet? ;)
    AVDACES FORTVNA IVVAT

  9. #9
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    As an ex-Carillion shareholder, they can go bust for all I care.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by JPCain86 View Post
    More often not will be getting screwed by the end client. Agree this shouldn't be passed on to subcontractors though.
    Wrong (in at least one instance, that I know of).
    They also screw some of their richer clients and still end up in this mess - through poor management.

  11. #11
    As someone who has run a small business for 12 years now without going into debt and always paying our customers on time etc, it always amazes me how such big businesses can get into such a financial mess. Clearly something has not been right there for a very long time.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by bootneck View Post
    I sincerely hope those in the accounts dept donít get paid and see how they like it, we used to do a lot of contracts for Carrilion and not once did they pay on time ever. They also had the unwritten rule that if you took them to court for late payment you would never do work for them again, finally pushed me too far and I severed all ties couldnít happen to a nicer mob imo.
    Having had more than enough dealings with Facilities Management companies such as Carillion and G4S, I couldn't agree more. These Companies are nothing more than blood-sucking leeches, and poorly-managed blood-sucking leeches at that.
    Although no trees were harmed during the creation of this post, a large number of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.

  13. #13
    One problem with facilities management I perceive is that measuring performance against a contract is very difficult.

    You can pay low, pay right or pay high and the performance could be poor, adequate or superb and it can be exceptionally difficult to know whereabouts in that matrix you are.

    Some companies bid high with no real intention of performing high.

    Some companies bid low with no ability after that of performing anything other than low.

    It’s a nightmare tendering these contracts especially when the performance at the end of the day more comes down to the ability, experience, motivation and diligence of the people on the ground rather than the suits discussing and deciding the price and cost.

  14. #14
    Craftsman Seiko7A38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backward point View Post
    Having had more than enough dealings with Facilities Management companies such as Carillion and G4S, I couldn't agree more. These Companies are nothing more than blood-sucking leeches, and poorly-managed blood-sucking leeches at that.
    Agreed - wholeheartedly !

  15. #15
    Grand Master Carlton-Browne's Avatar
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    I have only worked on one project that involved Carillion and they were spectacularly crap so none of this surprises me.
    Die Zeit verwandelt uns nicht, sie entfaltet uns nur.

  16. #16
    Mrs Goat let a lot of work to them over the years (local govt)
    None of this is surprising her!

  17. #17
    Master chrisb's Avatar
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    They've never been the same since they changed their name. The construction arm of the company was professional in all respects except for their accounts dept.
    It looks like a lot of its woes stem from the acquisition of Sir Alfred McAlpine.
    Last edited by chrisb; 14th January 2018 at 11:24.

  18. #18
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    My step son is a Quantity surveyor and project manager who worked for Carillion until about 6 years ago. he got sick of the hassle and time he had to waste trying to keep suppliers and contractors on board when they weren't getting paid. As I say, he left them and hasn't looked back.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by catch21 View Post
    One problem with facilities management I perceive is that measuring performance against a contract is very difficult.

    You can pay low, pay right or pay high and the performance could be poor, adequate or superb and it can be exceptionally difficult to know whereabouts in that matrix you are.

    Some companies bid high with no real intention of performing high.

    Some companies bid low with no ability after that of performing anything other than low.

    Itís a nightmare tendering these contracts especially when the performance at the end of the day more comes down to the ability, experience, motivation and diligence of the people on the ground rather than the suits discussing and deciding the price and cost.
    This, recently involved in a Carillion project in central London. Absolutely rubbish, naff management with no practical knowledge of how trades work.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisb View Post
    They've never been the same since they changed their name. The construction arm of the company was professional in all respects except for their accounts dept.
    It looks like a lot of its woes stem from the acquisition of Sir Alfred McAlpine.
    It was Alfred macalpines we originally worked for until carrilion bought them out, in 5 years working for macalpines we where paid late once due to an admin error and they did all they could to rectify it we got paid within the same week. As soon as carillion took over the problems started as I said earlier theyíre famous for doing it but so big itís hard to not do work for them some times. I just hope those working in accounts get shafted for their wages and lose all their pension etc couldnít happen to a nicer bunch of people.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by bootneck View Post
    I sincerely hope those in the accounts dept donít get paid and see how they like it, we used to do a lot of contracts for Carrilion and not once did they pay on time ever. They also had the unwritten rule that if you took them to court for late payment you would never do work for them again, finally pushed me too far and I severed all ties couldnít happen to a nicer mob imo.
    Sounds like Tesco. They have a similar attitude

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by awright101 View Post
    Sounds like Tesco. They have a similar attitude
    Ive never had the displeasure of working for Tescoís but again their name is terrible for payments etc

  23. #23
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    Oops double post

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by bootneck View Post
    Ive never had the displeasure of working for Tescoís but again their name is terrible for payments etc
    I have a friend that works for a supplier to Tesco and it seems like they are bullies.
    When you hear about their attitude itís really hard to give them your custom

  25. #25
    With one notable exception, all supermarkets (and sheds - the DIY stores) treat their suppliers appallingly.

    The exception is the John Lewis Partnership.
    Although no trees were harmed during the creation of this post, a large number of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.

  26. #26
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    Carillion ?

    ^ This. And not just here. They are the same across Europe, and Wal-Mart is even worse.
    Well, everybody in Casablanca has problems. Yours may work out.

  27. #27
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    I have always kept clear of Carrilion as they are the worst payers ever. Most contractors I know used to tell me it was not unusual for them to get paid only twice in a year. I work for two of the major construction firms in the UK and my payment terms are 4O days and they stick to it.

    One thing that might swing the Government into a bail out is, with the amount of new NHS and other Public Sector contracts that are ongoing they would be Novated to other Contractors who would charge mega amounts to get the projects over the line.
    Last edited by hilly10; 14th January 2018 at 15:24.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by bootneck View Post
    I sincerely hope those in the accounts dept donít get paid and see how they like it, we used to do a lot of contracts for Carrilion and not once did they pay on time ever. They also had the unwritten rule that if you took them to court for late payment you would never do work for them again, finally pushed me too far and I severed all ties couldnít happen to a nicer mob imo.
    Can't stand that kind of thing - big companies abusing the position they have. Especially when working for the government, should be setting an example.

  29. #29

    Carillion ?

    Carillion will have signed the Prompt Payment Code. They will expect to be payed on time and pay their sub-suppliers on time and SMEs within 30 days. Industry self-regulation and codes donít have teeth do they.

    I guess they just got too big for their capabilities. These big projects and outsourcing deals are hard to specify and tender, hard to bid in the time given, hard to evaluate and select, end up with overly complex contracts and are hard to contract manage. Lots of opportunities for things to go wrong.


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  30. #30
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    Private profits, public debt. Tax avoidance. Management paid huge sums "because we need to recruit the best" but seemingly never responsible when things go bad. Is it any surprise that we end up with Carillion / G4S / Crapita / Virgin / Stagecoach / Southern / etc.

  31. #31
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    All these type of companies are turds my Mrs has had experience of them in the nhs they take over parts of the public sector cut all the staffs pay and conditions treat them like sh-t then then fu-- up what ever they take over then walk away laughing, then an even worse one takes over where they left off, but it's privately run so must be better.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillyCasper View Post
    Carillion will have signed the Prompt Payment Code. They will expect to be payed on time and pay their sub-suppliers on time and SMEs within 30 days. Industry self-regulation and codes donít have teeth do they.

    I guess they just got too big for their capabilities. These big projects and outsourcing deals are hard to specify and tender, hard to bid in the time given, hard to evaluate and select, end up with overly complex contracts and are hard to contract manage. Lots of opportunities for things to go wrong.


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    One of the contracts we did for them was HMRC try paying that lot late lol

  33. #33
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    Loved "Kayleigh" and "Lavender", but otherwise.............

    Not my favourites

  34. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by blackal View Post
    Loved "Kayleigh" and "Lavender", but otherwise.............

    Not my favourites
    Thatís another death knell for these conglomerates when they come up with stupid Ďcorporate affairsí or computer generated names. Carillion! British engineering and construction companies used to have proper names: Fairclough, McAlpine, Mowlem, Tarmac, Balfour Beatty, Babcock not poncey French sounding names like Carillion. Skanska? Vinci?


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  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillyCasper View Post
    Thatís another death knell for these conglomerates when they come up with stupid Ďcorporate affairsí or computer generated names. Carillion! British engineering and construction companies used to have proper names: Fairclough, McAlpine, Mowlem, Tarmac, Balfour Beatty, Babcock not poncey French sounding names like Carillion. Skanska? Vinci?


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    Not to mention Shephard Hill, Murphy, Public Works, Henry Boot, Nuttalls, Cubitts, Reed and Mallik, French, Norwest Holst, Cementation, Gleeson, Birse, Monk, Mears, Sir Lindsay Parkinson, R M Douglas, Cleveland Bridge

  36. #36
    Master Mr Curta's Avatar
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    Carillion up the Khyber

  37. #37
    Craftsman Seiko7A38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillyCasper View Post
    .... when they come up with stupid Ďcorporate affairsí or computer generated names. Carillion!
    Their naff corporate logo always made me think of a dripping tap !


  38. #38
    Curta & Seiko


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  39. #39
    Breaking news, and the BBC are getting over-excited and confused between Liquidation and Administration. But it's one of those two.

    It's early in the morning.
    Although no trees were harmed during the creation of this post, a large number of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.

  40. #40
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    Liquidation it seems to be and it is unsurprising!

    Listen carefully, listen and you will hear the distant thunder of the feet of grotesquely overpaid and consistently underperforming Carillion senior management stampeding for cover.

    It is the unpaid small suppliers and the workers at the sharp end I feel sorry for, not to mention the taxpayers! Cesspits are too good for the Carillion directors and the HMG civil servants who have recently awarded major contracts to Carillion. Due diligence? Don’t make me laugh!
    Last edited by KavKav; 15th January 2018 at 08:41.

  41. #41
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    The accountants have been called in, so we can all relax.

  42. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by bootneck View Post
    I sincerely hope those in the accounts dept donít get paid and see how they like it, we used to do a lot of contracts for Carrilion and not once did they pay on time ever. They also had the unwritten rule that if you took them to court for late payment you would never do work for them again, finally pushed me too far and I severed all ties couldnít happen to a nicer mob imo.
    have heard that from a fair few companies that worked with Carillion.

  43. #43
    Craftsman Seiko7A38's Avatar
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    Not a great surprise ....

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42687032

    Carillion to go into liquidation ....

  44. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by KavKav View Post
    Liquidation it seems to be and it is unsurprising!

    Listen carefully, listen and you will hear the distant thunder of the feet of grotesquely overpaid and consistently underperforming Carillion senior management stampeding for cover.

    It is the unpaid small suppliers and the workers at the sharp end I feel sorry for, not to mention the taxpayers! Cesspits are too good for the Carillion directors and the HMG civil servants who have recently awarded major contracts to Carillion. Due diligence? Donít make me laugh!
    Indeed. Does anybody think that some senior Ministers of State might be spending more time with their families as a result of this omnishambles?

    I feel genuinely sorry for the accountants who will have to fight their way through the smoke and mirrors to get to the bottom of this.
    Although no trees were harmed during the creation of this post, a large number of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.

  45. #45
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    I had an interview for a procurement job with Carillion just over a year ago. The woman interviewing me was possibly the nastiest person I have ever come across during an interview and I walked away thinking "how does a company like that survive with people like her in charge"? Looks like I have my answer.

  46. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Seiko7A38 View Post
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42687032

    Carillion to go into liquidation ....
    Liquidation rather than administration because the have no assets.

    20,000 people and no assets whatsoever. Effectively a glorified management company.

  47. #47
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    I donít. Fees from the likes of PwC, EY etc will be enormous. A very lucrative contract for one of the big firms.


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  48. #48
    Craftsman Zigster's Avatar
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    I don't know Carillion but I know a few big companies that have a lot of Government contracts - "public sector outsourcing". The trouble for them starts with the Government - the Government behaves like the big supermarkets in that it gives the contract but then insists on cheaper and cheaper renewal terms until it becomes unprofitable but the supplier is then reliant on that contract.

    The irony for one of the companies I know is that the only way it is keeping its head above water on these Government contracts is to offshore as much as possible to India and make large number of UK employees redundant. I'm sure it isn't the only company in that position and it doesn't feel like a sustainable business model for the UK as a whole.

  49. #49
    Administrator swanbourne's Avatar
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    I don't understand how any company can continue to trade with debts/liabilities of £1.5 billion. I suppose a decent wedge of liabilities will be to HMRC but how do they get bank loans if they have no assets?

    Eddie
    Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by swanbourne View Post
    I don't understand how any company can continue to trade with debts/liabilities of £1.5 billion. I suppose a decent wedge of liabilities will be to HMRC but how do they get bank loans if they have no assets?

    Eddie
    Many companies are over indebted including BT.

    At its last financial update BTís net debt stood at £9.6bn and it's pension debt is even worse.

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