Will they get the bank treatment with a bale out or will their 17,000 staff be in the employment exchange next week. Not a good situation whatever the outcome
Will they get the bank treatment with a bale out or will their 17,000 staff be in the employment exchange next week. Not a good situation whatever the outcome
Highly unlikely any of the 17000 will lose their jobs, unless the Gov want to close prisons, operating theatres, etc - so their jobs will TUPE over to whoever takes over responsibility.
Those much more likely to lose their jobs are the senior management and those in marketing and tresuary departments. Shame!
The company is a cash cow with lots of assets and guaranteed income,so once the pension issue is resolved (I.e. By the tax payer), then other companies will come knocking.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
I sincerely hope those in the accounts dept don’t get paid and see how they like it, we used to do a lot of contracts for Carrilion and not once did they pay on time ever. They also had the unwritten rule that if you took them to court for late payment you would never do work for them again, finally pushed me too far and I severed all ties couldn’t happen to a nicer mob imo.
I’m on a trade type Facebook group and there are loads of guys with the same story ^
Cheers..
Jase
They’re famous for it, I ended up cutting power to a building and starting to take all our equipment back to get paid then severed all ties because this isn’t the pit I won’t say exactly what they are but c u next Tuesdays sums it up nicelyOriginally Posted by JasonM
More often not will be getting screwed by the end client. Agree this shouldn't be passed on to subcontractors though.
Having had more than enough dealings with Facilities Management companies such as Carillion and G4S, I couldn't agree more. These Companies are nothing more than blood-sucking leeches, and poorly-managed blood-sucking leeches at that.
Although no trees were harmed during the creation of this post, a large number of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.
One problem with facilities management I perceive is that measuring performance against a contract is very difficult.
You can pay low, pay right or pay high and the performance could be poor, adequate or superb and it can be exceptionally difficult to know whereabouts in that matrix you are.
Some companies bid high with no real intention of performing high.
Some companies bid low with no ability after that of performing anything other than low.
It’s a nightmare tendering these contracts especially when the performance at the end of the day more comes down to the ability, experience, motivation and diligence of the people on the ground rather than the suits discussing and deciding the price and cost.
This, recently involved in a Carillion project in central London. Absolutely rubbish, naff management with no practical knowledge of how trades work.
Agreed - wholeheartedly !
I have only worked on one project that involved Carillion and they were spectacularly crap so none of this surprises me.
In the Sotadic Zone, apparently.
Sounds like Tesco. They have a similar attitude
Ive never had the displeasure of working for Tesco’s but again their name is terrible for payments etc
I have a friend that works for a supplier to Tesco and it seems like they are bullies.
When you hear about their attitude it’s really hard to give them your custom
Oops double post
Can't stand that kind of thing - big companies abusing the position they have. Especially when working for the government, should be setting an example.
Private profits, public debt. Tax avoidance. Management paid huge sums "because we need to recruit the best" but seemingly never responsible when things go bad. Is it any surprise that we end up with Carillion / G4S / Crapita / Virgin / Stagecoach / Southern / etc.
have heard that from a fair few companies that worked with Carillion.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42687032
Carillion to go into liquidation ....
I had an interview for a procurement job with Carillion just over a year ago. The woman interviewing me was possibly the nastiest person I have ever come across during an interview and I walked away thinking "how does a company like that survive with people like her in charge"? Looks like I have my answer.
Liquidation rather than administration because the have no assets.
20,000 people and no assets whatsoever. Effectively a glorified management company.
As an ex-Carillion shareholder, they can go bust for all I care.
^ This. And not just here. They are the same across Europe, and Wal-Mart is even worse.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
I have always kept clear of Carrilion as they are the worst payers ever. Most contractors I know used to tell me it was not unusual for them to get paid only twice in a year. I work for two of the major construction firms in the UK and my payment terms are 4O days and they stick to it.
One thing that might swing the Government into a bail out is, with the amount of new NHS and other Public Sector contracts that are ongoing they would be Novated to other Contractors who would charge mega amounts to get the projects over the line.
Last edited by hilly10; 14th January 2018 at 15:24.
Carillion will have signed the Prompt Payment Code. They will expect to be payed on time and pay their sub-suppliers on time and SMEs within 30 days. Industry self-regulation and codes don’t have teeth do they.
I guess they just got too big for their capabilities. These big projects and outsourcing deals are hard to specify and tender, hard to bid in the time given, hard to evaluate and select, end up with overly complex contracts and are hard to contract manage. Lots of opportunities for things to go wrong.
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One of the contracts we did for them was HMRC try paying that lot late lol
Loved "Kayleigh" and "Lavender", but otherwise.............
Not my favourites
That’s another death knell for these conglomerates when they come up with stupid ‘corporate affairs’ or computer generated names. Carillion! British engineering and construction companies used to have proper names: Fairclough, McAlpine, Mowlem, Tarmac, Balfour Beatty, Babcock not poncey French sounding names like Carillion. Skanska? Vinci?Loved "Kayleigh" and "Lavender", but otherwise.............
Not my favourites
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Not to mention Shephard Hill, Murphy, Public Works, Henry Boot, Nuttalls, Cubitts, Reed and Mallik, French, Norwest Holst, Cementation, Gleeson, Birse, Monk, Mears, Sir Lindsay Parkinson, R M Douglas, Cleveland Bridge
Their naff corporate logo always made me think of a dripping tap !
All these type of companies are turds my Mrs has had experience of them in the nhs they take over parts of the public sector cut all the staffs pay and conditions treat them like sh-t then then fu-- up what ever they take over then walk away laughing, then an even worse one takes over where they left off, but it's privately run so must be better.
Wonder how much the Tesco fiasco has cost the tax payer so far for no result?
Where's the public accountability for that?
Carillion up the Khyber
Curta & Seiko
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Breaking news, and the BBC are getting over-excited and confused between Liquidation and Administration. But it's one of those two.
It's early in the morning.
Although no trees were harmed during the creation of this post, a large number of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.
Liquidation it seems to be and it is unsurprising!
Listen carefully, listen and you will hear the distant thunder of the feet of grotesquely overpaid and consistently underperforming Carillion senior management stampeding for cover.
It is the unpaid small suppliers and the workers at the sharp end I feel sorry for, not to mention the taxpayers! Cesspits are too good for the Carillion directors and the HMG civil servants who have recently awarded major contracts to Carillion. Due diligence? Don’t make me laugh!
Last edited by KavKav; 15th January 2018 at 08:41.
The accountants have been called in, so we can all relax.
Indeed. Does anybody think that some senior Ministers of State might be spending more time with their families as a result of this omnishambles?Liquidation it seems to be and it is unsurprising!
Listen carefully, listen and you will hear the distant thunder of the feet of grotesquely overpaid and consistently underperforming Carillion senior management stampeding for cover.
It is the unpaid small suppliers and the workers at the sharp end I feel sorry for, not to mention the taxpayers! Cesspits are too good for the Carillion directors and the HMG civil servants who have recently awarded major contracts to Carillion. Due diligence? Don’t make me laugh!
I feel genuinely sorry for the accountants who will have to fight their way through the smoke and mirrors to get to the bottom of this.
Although no trees were harmed during the creation of this post, a large number of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.
Unfortunately Carillion our not alone in their practices. A lot of the large main contractors notoriously hang there subcontractors out to dry and use them to finance the projects whilst stripping out client, payments on account, to large wage bills and expenses.
I’ve been at the receiving end of this several times in the past and nearly lost my business through these companies.
Hopefully the ethics of this kind of business will be addressed and something good will come out of this but I’m not holding my breath.
Laughable to see them all on TV yesterday, taking a telling off for being not very good
All get to keep their bonuses of course, while the pension fund goes short
Disgusting
I don’t. Fees from the likes of PwC, EY etc will be enormous. A very lucrative contract for one of the big firms.
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I don't know Carillion but I know a few big companies that have a lot of Government contracts - "public sector outsourcing". The trouble for them starts with the Government - the Government behaves like the big supermarkets in that it gives the contract but then insists on cheaper and cheaper renewal terms until it becomes unprofitable but the supplier is then reliant on that contract.
The irony for one of the companies I know is that the only way it is keeping its head above water on these Government contracts is to offshore as much as possible to India and make large number of UK employees redundant. I'm sure it isn't the only company in that position and it doesn't feel like a sustainable business model for the UK as a whole.
I don't understand how any company can continue to trade with debts/liabilities of £1.5 billion. I suppose a decent wedge of liabilities will be to HMRC but how do they get bank loans if they have no assets?
Eddie
Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".
Many companies are over indebted including BT.
At its last financial update BT’s net debt stood at £9.6bn and it's pension debt is even worse.
Aggressive accounting (link)?
Then there’s Carillion’s “aggressive accounting”.
The aptly titled practice is when you declare revenue and profit before you’ve made the money, based on optimistic forecasts.
This approach works while expectations and reality are aligned, and you bring forward the benefits of your big wins.
But say a PFI hospital job that you’re anticipating will make you £200m over 30 years, is delayed twice in the construction process, well, that expected profit becomes real-life losses.
Remember that £845m “contract provision” Carillion made at its 2016 results?
That was the contractor admitting that there was nearly a billion pounds worth of difference between what it thought it’d make and what it actually was making.
Isn't that fraud? If not...why not, please?
Simply because the banks can't lose. They get their money back anyway.
I think most of the debt results from a massive hole in the pension fund. This is a problem for a lot of companies. You can thank Gordon Brown and his stealth tax on dividends for that.
Political leverage ( no pun) PFI's were VERy poular with Blair and Brun. It got the debt off the treasury balance sheet
Capitalisation - remember the capitalisation of mortgage debt into derivative securities in the 2008 crash.
The debtors in the middle east 500 mil according to the city chat rooms
BP is very similarly structured in that they bankroll the jobs and the subcontractors do the work
......and Look what Bransons lot have done to the east coast line and the hospital trust in the midlands or south or somewhere.............the list goes on and on.
I don't have a problem with the principle of PFI........ it is down to how it is managed.
Other contractors will step in and replace the darling Carillon - however my thoughts are with the subbies in the private sector and the pensioners at head office
Last edited by Brian; 16th January 2018 at 13:12.
Diane Abbot on Carillion:
"How many is a Carillion?"
Cheers..
Jase
This is pretty much the crux of it.
I am currently in the process of re tendering a large outsourced facilities management contract - circa £40m.
The fact of the matter is, government departments involved here have irresponsibility let contracts to Carillon on two counts, the first is the due diligence around the financial stability of the company and the second is the due diligence as to the company’s ability to deliver the said services at the price point they have promised.
I don’t necessarily agree that it’s difficult to manage these contracts in the longer term - I’ve been doing it for many years and I ain’t clever - as others have pointed out, these so called “outsourcing experts” are nothing more than a labour resource with minimal assets.
The problem comes when a contract is sold on an output spec where the contractor has not a snowball in hells chance of delivering the services at the price promised.
On a basic level if you sell a contract to clean a hospital based upon needing 50 cleaners at a certain mark up the salesman gets his bonus, and the company report a growth in turnover at a certain profit good news all round.
Standards slip, and 6-12 months later it actually turns out you require 70 cleaners. The contractor then must either employ more cleaners at the contractors cost of course - he has signed up to maintain a certain standard, not supply X number of cleaners which then means he loses a vast sum of money for the duration of the contract due to his payroll or pays penalties for a failure to deliver the services to a sufficient standard (normally which ever is the cheapest).
It is the job of the person letting the contract to check that the services can be delivered for the price promised. In large organisations this is normally the job of the procurement officers, who often have limited sector knowledge, and will be under a great deal of pressure to achieve the lowest price possible. This is very beneficial when buying commodities, but it rarely works well when buying services.
These government departments (and the private sector ones for that matter) are equally to blame for the collapse and should take some responsibility.
Obviously there’s a lot more to it than this (I have no idea how the pension liabilities work) but I have real sympathy for the hundreds, if not thousands of small subcontractors employed by Carillon on their construction and small works contracts. This is where it is going to really hurt. These guys now face not getting paid for works they have completed already, and the job of re filling their order book.
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