Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton
MickP - please read the clarification posted by Haywood which I think does much to dispel the main thrust of what you are saying. We all know that a lot of the staff in places such as Goldsmiths, Ernest Jones etc etc are nowhere near as well informed or as clued up about watches as the average person on TZ-UK. It therefore comes as no surprise that a lot of these staff could be fooled by some of these fakes.
That makes the hand-held XRF Spectrometer a waste of money...........but it'll still detect the lesser fakes!
As for seeing the difference between the two metals with the naked eye, I certainly couldn`t and I`m experienced at polishing/refinishing watches!
I`m almost glad I`m not in the market to buy any of the faker's favourites, but if I was I`d be v. careful. Might not take it to Mick P's extreme but I`d be careful!
Paul
Thanks for taking the time to write this up, scary and informative post.
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The guy must have had some mighty danglies
Perhaps I'm seeing things where they aren't. The 904 always seems to look brighter.
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Hi Paul
I would hardly call my position of say HQ fakes will encourage more people to shun away from private deals and go to ADs, extreme.
All it has made me do is to be a bit more vigilant if I ever buy private. I see nothing in insisting I visit someone house or office to cement a deal.
Regards
Mick
Nine pages and counting. . .
I’ll get my coat..
I would never have a problem with a Tzer coming to my house to view a watch.
Saves the hassle of posting so it would be a relief.
Absolutely. A couple of TZers have collected watches from me , at the house, and that was pleasant. In the end, you have to use your own judgement.
Agreed. I had a few round over the Christmas and New Year period and visited another. Gives the buyer an opportunity to examine the Watch fully whilst having a coffee and a general chat about the forum and other members
If all good a quick bank transfer, shake hands and on your way. Would rather do that than meet at the back end of some Motorway Service Station, which I have done before.
As long as you weren't wearing those slippers.Agreed. I had a few round over the Christmas and New Year period and visited another. Gives the buyer an opportunity to examine the Watch fully whilst having a coffee and a general chat about the forum and other members
If all good a quick bank transfer, shake hands and on your way. Would rather do that than meet at the back end of some Motorway Service Station, which I have done before.
You'll be pleased to hear that I made an effort and changed into old trainers before the people arrived.
They're far away, far far away. But with Rolex solid casebacks they have a free ride on that.
If accustomed to these watches all you have to do is unscrew the crown and check which way the hands turn when you spin the crown clockwise. Also the date change on these fakes is nowhere near the real Rolexes.
That being said, it's getting harder and harder to spot fakes just from a quick external glance, as haywood proves here.
Fresh from the factory, rolex 904 looks different on a brushed bracelet to my Omega and to my mates Breitling. This may be down to the grain of factory rolex brushed finish, because some refinished rolex watches look the same as 316.
By different l mean a slightly darker hue. Whereas white gold rolex seem to look more like polished 316.
this test does not work now, the fakes even wind and set time the same .
Would agree with date change not quite as definitive but still close
I have my doubts about it being the same, some movement pictures would have been good, especially dial side.
The movements are not the same but the fake has been adapted to act like a 3135 movement.
Could this be why Rolex has made the new movement for sd43 . Which to advance time crown has to be turned anti clockwise.
Rolex must be concerned regards the fakes and always slightly change packaging and tags every so often
This is possibly why they have changed even a small thing like the hang tag
I think ongoing minor changes like these work in the favour of the counterfeiters.
From something I posted on this subject before: When manufacturers alter watches in tiny, subtle ways (to beat the fakers) without clear public documentation then only experts can tell what is fake and what is genuine. The fakers don't seem to be inconvenienced. This undocumented alteration might seem a good idea from the manufacturer's point of view but from the point of view of the average consumer it means that they are actually more likely to end up buying a fake.
But you have to remember it’s in Rolex interest for consumers to buy from ADs and boutiques so it’s a moot point. As long as u buy from an AD then ur safe (somewhat).
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Indeed, that does suit Rolex -- in the immediate, short term sense.
But it doesn't suit me as a buyer of second hand watches and it does not suit the second hand market in general, the liquidity of which, we have come to believe and understand, aids Rolex's sales of new watches.
It seems to me that one must therefore question whether or not multiple undocumented changes to watches is really in Rolex's long term interest. My view is that it is not. The widespread desire for Rolex watches, no matter what, has so far over overcome any possible harmful effects of Rolex's undocumented anti-counterfeiting features but that still doesn't mean that introducing such features in an undocumented matter is beneficial to Rolex in the longer term (especially since lack of documentation appears to do nothing whatsoever to hamper the counterfeiters; only legitimate, non-expert buyers are hampered).
https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news...atches-9870254
Some Pawnbrokers here not up to the challenge.
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My thoughts too
No matter how convincing, a fake is always a fake.
Quote Originally Posted by Foxy100 View Post
I'm still fascinated by this. Assuming the fakes will get better and better will there come a point where it's virtually impossible to tell a fake from a real watch with everything made to the same standard and QC and accuracy as good? And at that point how many people will spend £1k on one of those rather than the £8k a genuine Sub will surely cost by then? If dealers and collectors are already being hoodwinked how will anyone else be able to tell? I would imagine Rolex are going to have to come up with a way of authenticating watches without having to look at them, and make it possible for ADs to check.
The only way is registered owners. Like with vehicles except done with proof of ID. The buyer and the seller meet at an AD and the AD does the change of ownership paperwork. Of course it wouldn't be a law and anyone could still sell to whoever they like, but those wanting proof of authenticity would only buy a registered watch.
Last edited by Tiny; 18th January 2018 at 18:57.
I have visions of people wearing a certificate of authenticity around their necks on a lanyard. “Mine's real”!
"Mug me! Mug me!"
Someone with a registered watch could sell a copy.
Thats true. But then when the seller of the copy goes to get his authentic serviced, he will loose it as it doesn't belong to him and it will be returned to the registered owner who will end up with the copy and the authentic. Also the original can't be sold by the seller because he would get done for not owning it. If someone wants to buy it as unregistered then its their problem and they will lose it at the next service. Also an AD may pick up on it being a copy at registration changeover.
Seems like a lot of fuss just to join the Rolex crowd :)
Not really. You can buy a good fake for a few hundred. No need to worry if its a fake or not.
Assumption is wrong anyway, law of diminishing returns makes sure of that. Look at it this way: Not even other genuine watchmakers like Omega or Breitling are making watches with the same quality as Rolex do. If you want to make a movement as good as Rolex, you need a factory as good as Rolex has.... and staff and know how etc... The movements in these are still unservicable crap, that dont run -2+2s/d for 10 years like a Rolex can... not to mention bracelets, cases, dials, etc...
There will always be a market for fakes but if they get too expensive then that type of buyers wont be interested anyway, will they. The point of the Benidorm-Bennys is always "look at this mate its as good as your Rolex and it only cost me 10 quid init!"... Ok guvnor whatever you say LOL.
What trade purchaser doesn't open the back up and check the movement is genuine?
Carry on and don't panic !!
If I am reading Haywood's initial post correctly, the problem is that the latest fakes have very convincing looking movements too so could fool even a pro who isn't completely on the ball. Taking the back off would help but it isn't the magic bullet solution with these it seems.
Many omit this, simpler or any meaningful tests.
In the last ten years there has been a huge number of inexperienced jewellers, large and small, who have decided that they can over-night become "pre-owned watch specialists." Many have reputations and well-appointed stores but their knowledge of the subject is laughable. There are those of us in the NAJ / NPA / IRV who have respectively voiced our concerns. It is appalling!
Haywood
Haywood are these trade bodies or something? They are all terms I’m unfamiliar with. Thanks
NAJ : National Association of Jewellers (formerly the NAG ...of Goldsmiths)
NPA : National Pawnbrokers Association
IRV : Institute of Registered Valuers
BQW : Below Quality Wanted.
Last edited by Haywood_Milton; 19th January 2018 at 15:22.
That's what we're debating though, the description of a fake is blurring. Once a fake was a cheap and easy to identify copy, now it isn't.
When watches are almost fully manufactured by machines it doesn't really matter where those machines are, Switzerland or China.
A BMW made in their Shenyang plant is every bit as good as one made in their Munich one because they're built in the same way, from the same materials, to the same specification and design.
This seems to be happening in the watch world too, and it's getting more difficult to separate a Swiss manufactured piece with a Chinese one. So the only difference will soon be that one factory holds the copyright to the brand name, the other doesn't. It becomes less about quality and more about Intellectual Property (IP) theft. And IP theft to many isn't a concern.
Thank you Sir!
Except that the Chinese fake does not have the same Quality Control in place that the real, genuine item does because they are illegally produced. Your BMW analogy stands up as it is an Authorised and regulated facility.
A basic mechanical watch is rather simpler to reproduce than a new 7 Series...
...yet.
But it can't be far off. It's not like every watch that comes out of Switzerland is faultless either.
I would like to see Rolex introduce a sapphire case back though. Their current movements are pretty enough to be on display and it certainly helped people identify an 8500 Planet Ocean from a fake.
Last edited by chrisparker; 19th January 2018 at 16:41.
Your concept of quality is a little out of date. In modern manufacturing one does not inspect quality into a product. You make it right in the first place. Hence if you use the same machines and the same processes you end up with close to the same quality. The end of line inspection becomes a tiny fraction of your cost. Therefore if you are mass producing fakes you'll have customers who will insist on decent quality simply because they don't want the hassle of dealing with non-working examples. It's the end buyer who will be duped, this level of faking is intended to do exactly what Haywood is warning about and that's to separate an unwitting buyer, trade or private, from a big chunk of change. The big question is how much longer before the fake is so good that an expert like Haywood can't tell the difference?
The value of luxury goods is in the brand, not simply the product. There is reason for that beyond simple snobbery. Things like history,integrity, customer support, top quality shops, highly creative advertising. The reality that a fake was made to the same quality standard would not change the desire to possess genuine branded goods.
Indeed, it was recognition that modern manufacturing quality is achievable everywhere that led to the push for brands....something intangible that adds value.
Rolex will not be damaged by fakes. It makes 'the real thing' more desirable. Think Coca Cola. Sugar water with brilliant branding.
Last edited by paskinner; 19th January 2018 at 16:47.
Fakes are hugely damaging to a brand worth faking, hence why they spend so much trying to stop the counterfeiters.
Look at Louis Vuitton - the Monogram print is so widely faked that the automatic assumption is that is isn't real, to the point where it actually becomes undesirable by association (I'm sure some feel the same way about genuine modern Rolex, but that's another thread).
Good points all around. It appears that some are seriously underestimating just how good a Rolex movement actually is.
Yes I would agree but I can’t imagine that the whole production process is all under one roof. All with strict quality controls in place. Reading Bonesy’s posts more likely an underground chain of suppliers exist with little controls. Ok finished items currently are getting harder and harder to spot but I doubt they meet the full specification of the real McCoy. White gold plots, uniform application of the luminous materials etc. That’s without looking at a fake movement with its accuracy and durability.
So I agree with the final point about how much longer before they get to that point, but surely the last few percentage points of increasing quality has to drive prices up. That illegal supply chain all wants a margin. So the end customers may feel it as acceptable to spend a few hundred quid on a dodgy fake but there must be a point where they say no it’s too much, knowing that it has little provenance and residual value.
Or am I just being naive?
I agree with most of what you write, I'd posted similar a few pages back. The problem is that many don't value the brand at the prices now asked. It wasn't that long ago when you could have that snobbery, history, integrity, customer support, top quality shops, highly creative advertising for a couple of grand. Now it's pushing Six grand. I feel it's possibly why Rolex re-introduced Tudor back in to the UK, to capture that lost market.
I think the industry is going to face a tough time in the next decade. Smart watches can do much more than traditional watches, at a modest price, and will continue increase market share against the £200-500 bracket, and at the luxury end the Swiss really do have to produce something special to continue to command the ever increasing prices being asked.
No you're totally correct. The naive bit is thinking fakes will ever become as good as the real thing.
Ironically when I bought my first proper watch some 20+ years ago I steered away from Rolex to Breitling for exactly that reason.
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