Reply With QuoteI suppose I can see how a very simple person could think that. ;)
If a Chinese factory can spew out reasonable fakes for a unit price of £20-50 you can be damn sure with their automation, efficiency and worldwide supply chain Rolex aren't going to be much more expensive to manufacture.
The raw material cost, even with fancier steel, isn't going to change that much when you buy by the tonne.
I'd be surprised if a sub cost £200 to make.
I suppose I can see how a very simple person could think that. ;)
That would have to be a VERY simple person, indeed.Originally Posted by Belligero
Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.
Nothing is as simplistic as this in the real world. Engineering design/ R&D / rolex is a vertically integrated organisation from design led manufacture until product reached AD who also must have a margin to maintain high street frontage.
Buying a Rolex, is more than simply buying a watch. More than the sum of its parts.
The others simply copy a finished product and distribute through criminal networks without taxes/vat duties etc etc.
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Last edited by P.Sheridan; 15th January 2018 at 07:32.
It’s an easy mistake, even you’re doing it now!
Last edited by Dave+63; 14th January 2018 at 23:22.
Thank you Haywood for sharing this. Did the movement have a "traditional" regulator system, or do fakers now go as far as re-producing a free sprung balance?
I would agree if it was Omega who must have loads of design, R&D costs, since they are trying to make as many variants of their watches as the market is able to absorb, or even without thinking whether the market will want them or not. Whereas Rolex just stamp out the same designs over years, making minor and slow tweaks and improvements to models which have been in existence for decades, releasing bigger improvements by slowly rolling same design cues across the range over years and decades even and rarely coming up with revolutionary designs. Market loves the hype and (as can be seen in this thread) the almost religious aspect of the brand backed by the hype surrounding vintage pieces (thanks to low interest rates and QE) drives the prices of current models. Which is where the disconnect happens. Obviously it works for them. But that doesn't mean that the prices aren't somewhat ridiculous and it will be interesting to see what's going to happen to the market when the next big financial event happens.
But since this is getting really OT now (I'm sorry for even starting it, Raffchen I hope you'll get over it!) I'm going to finish on this post since I don't want to derail it even further.
Chris why don't you wind your neck in a little on this one and don't make decisions for other people on who they would and wouldn't deal with.
You have a certain viewpoint on this which is fine.The fact that others don't automatically subscribe to your thoughts are on the subject does not somehow make them less trustworthy and to be honest it is quite scandalous you trying to bring anyones suitability to deal with and by extension honesty into question.
just copied from the ETA clones they use.
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Last edited by Bonesey; 15th January 2018 at 11:11.
Thanks to Haywood for an important post, that should be required reading for anyone contemplating a used Rolex purchase. My take on this is that the risks of unknowingly buying a counterfeit watch are significant enough that great diligence is required by the potential purchaser, either regarding the watch, or the seller. I am happily only 10 miles from Haywood's Liverpool business, and my only used Rolex came from there. HM and Mike Wood are safe, and Watchfinder are big enough to be diligent, but there are many options that just aren't safe, or at least there is a question over them. What aren't to be trusted? eBay, Gumtree, many pawnbrokers, and I'm sure plenty of watch dealers. Purchasers really have to ask: How can I be reassured this watch is genuine? What is your expertise? Will you still be around in 3-5 years if it goes to RSC and a problem is found?
I do think that the existence of the "Super-Fake" for want of a better term casts a shadow over SC in the longer term. Historically this was a safe area where the eagle-eyed community provided appropriate checks and balances, but who can spot a Super-Fake confidently? In the longer term, the risks with SC for Rolex have to rise.
And to briefly cover the other issues, counterfeit illegal watches for fake people and a terrible financial risk to the innocent if they enter the supply chain.
Dave
Last edited by helidoc; 15th January 2018 at 00:36. Reason: Spelling
What about the general public who have no idea about these fakes they are most likely to come a cropper.
Come on we all know the price of the watch is not the materials. We pay for marketing image after service and history.
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You're brave :)
And simply supply and demand.
A few years ago, when I started watch collecting again, I became paranoid buying as I could see from basic online searches how even lower tier brands than Rolex, like Oris and Tissot, were being copied.
Thankfully I've never been stung but the early research helped me exercise a lot of caution. Threads like this are a very timely reminder of the high risks.
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Interesting thread. Having had a quick google and looking at fake watch sellers, it seems that a good authentication test would be to pressure test them - most don’t seem to be particularly waterproof. 😬
I’d love to have a comprehensive understanding of fake spotting like this, but completely understand why you can’t share the crib sheet / instructions to counterfeiters.
I saw a program about high end pawn where they check the weight, is there a readily available reference of correct weight or do traders make their own?
I am intrigued by all of this, and would like to see a copy of a Seamaster Planet Ocean and a Seamaster Pro Co-ax. Due to my remote location that is unlikely though.
Those programmes commonly feature the least capable members of the trade and the fact that they use weight as an indicator of authenticity supports my view. It takes minimal effort for a faker to add ballast in order to make a watch head weigh the right amount, while the bracelet will of course vary depending on how many links are fitted.
You will never see much real, high end-pawnbroking on the television as it is a highly confidential and professional business very different from the idiots, open-shirted smoothies (what was your conviction for again?), faux-eccentrics and stooge customers ("did I mention I was opening a new nail bar? I'm really not here because I need the publicity, 'onest") that are commonly shown. A decent pawnbroker doesn't need to visit a pantomime cast of third party "experts" every time something is brought to him.
H
Last edited by Haywood_Milton; 15th January 2018 at 11:21.
And there was me thinking that posh pawn and the like was totally ad-lib and not at all scripted.
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Somehow I am left a bit disappointed by your post, I always had you pictured with an open shirt and a massive gold chain around your neck.
Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.
Much like Storage hunters et al
There was me thinking all Pawn shops were like Rick's shop on Pawn Stars with an 'expert' called in on every item and the U.K. Version that opened at the side of the A55 on the outskirts of Chester. They seem to have a jolly old time mucking about with every item brought into the shop.
Thanks to HM for the insight to the subtlety of details to call out a fake - surely none of which the average watch buyer could identify on a casual glance, and unless you know what to look for. And that's before even opening up the watch. Really quite frightening to see this. I find myself increasingly wearing my simple G-Shock: of which there are also copies! As an avid Rolex-fan, it only reaffirms to me that buying through ADs, highly reputable/established dealers, and/or have a watch verified by RSJ is the best way to go.
My holy grail watch is a Rolex Daytona but even if I had the money to buy one (and if I could actually find one in stock) I'm not sure I would buy one. Why? Because I would soon get frustrated with people asking me if it was a fake (I am not a well built company director). This is why I hate the fakes, because they would make my think twice about buying my dream watch.
Out of interest, what do you think there is more of - genuine Daytona's or fake Daytona's (or any other popular Rolex)?
Disappeared as quickly as we expected - and the individuals fell out with each other for good measure. Do some googling and you'll find customers complaining they were left high and dry.
For the record, professional pawnbroking does not mean the general buying and selling of any old tat, displaying specialist knowledge of nothing while larking about on television trying to create a marketable "character."
H
I am rather sure that there are more fake than real Rolex about, but that would include the very poor fakes and those, which are copies of which no original exists. No idea how this works out for Daytonas, hopefully a higher real watch quota.
Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.
just purchased a UV torch from Amazon for £5.99. Should have fun with that!!
I think we're now at the point that I'll have to deem it too risky to buy used Rolex, unless of course provenance can be proved beyond all doubt. I just don't have the time to do the relevant homework.
I must be a million miles off Haywood's appraisal skills. From the photos alone, I can't see anything wrong, worryingly.
I bought a ceramic bezel for my seiko for £20 from yobokies. I don't think this part is a problem for them.
If the Chinese watch that cost $200 to manufacture was branded Windsor, and they shift their product with a distribution network that are registered tax paying companies with a global reach, with salaried tax paying staff the $200 watch soon becomes a $400 watch.
Then Windsor needs globally available service centres, their $400 watch is now $500.
They need to promote Windsor; global marketing campaigns, website, social media coverage, celebrity endorsements, movie tie-ins, high profile sports event sponsorship, print adverts in fashion mags etc. Which all increases the cost of the Windsor to $1000.
Now that $1000 watch has to be packaged, presented and sold in a store, obviously the store need a margin too so now the watch costs $1666.
And the government want their slice, so now the watch is $2000.
Now Windsor, the new kid on the block, are charging a Ridicoulous sum for their watch.
Spot on, but probably too complicated for some.
Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.
If you know who they are, you have recourse.
YOTI or something of that ilk, online/remote identity proof, might be sensible in the SC for more expensive purchases.
I know I said I won't respond but this is too much fun to ignore.
Are you suggesting that e.g. Seiko (who make cheap watches and sell them at cheap, well sort of but more on that later, prices) is a tax dodging outfit, with no distribution network, service centres, R&D, marketing, selling their stock in bubble wraps?
And since we're on subject of Seiko, isn't it funny how Seiko are actually in a process of trying to pull off what Rolex does to their prices, selling exactly same kind of product they did a few years back at magnitude higher prices? I'm waiting for a Seiko fanboy to come up with a sob story on how Seiko's ridiculous price hikes are in any way justifiable based on this that or the other.
Come on I know you want to defend them but there's a limit to how much you can stretch it. I thought that Rolex fanboys being the grown ups able to drop a lot of coin are a bit more logical and reasonable than Apple fanboys most of who live in their mum's basements.
Herr Raffchen, your star is shining once again like a supernova.
You need to stop now or somebody will be along to explain Veblen goods you. This will incur wrath beyond measure from the rest of us.
FWIW before I understood how the market for watches works I was of a similar mind to you. You need to learn to appreciate a watch for what it is not for what it costs. You can do little about the relative cost other than decide not to participate by buying expensive watches. Something that is sadly true about Rolex for example is that you can be fairly confident of getting the purchase cost back when you sell it. Something that is not true for almost any other brand in the same price segment. Bottom line - desirability has nothing to do with value (e.g. I-phone.)
Big thank you to HM for the post. Buyer Beware is my take away.
Funny and true.
Here is my point proven: too difficult for some.
Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.
Made me smile and a perfect description of the modus operandi of the programs I confess to having watched .. I feel very dirty now !
Yes but the watches that they sell cheaply are nothing like a Rolex? The watches that Seiko sell for $200 probably cost $20 to make and the watches that they make that are of similar quality (Grand Seiko) cost roughly the same as a Rolex.
So I'm not sure how that example does anything other than disprove your point.
It's fairly simple, if it were that easy to produce Rolex quality watches for £500 why isn't anyone doing it? They'd make a killing.
Very scary - thanks for the heads up.
I'm in the market for a Sub, I'd rather purchase a secondhand one but posts like this make me think I should just put my name down on a waitling for a new one.
From reading the OP I was under the impression the movements were being faked now. Any clarification on this Haywood?
Makes me thankful that I have never lusted after a Rolex. Older Speedmasters are complex enough.
The movements are being faked, but imperfectly. The balance is one area you might indeed wish to look at, but there are several others.
An inexperienced or distracted examiner would be easily fooled by such a movement, while of course many will never have even removed a case-back to see!
Now, what would you do if someone put a genuine 3135 calibre into this watch? Easy enough for a baddy to source a movement from a stolen watch or one that is otherwise a write-off..... well worth it if he can convince someone to pay him full money for a ceramic sports model!
H
Last edited by Haywood_Milton; 15th January 2018 at 15:25.
Quality post
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Never mind the quality feel the weight.
https://youtu.be/yHl8dJqtywg
I think you've hit the nail on the head. We are fast approaching a time when second hand high end watches will only be safe to buy direct from AD's.
I was shown some very clever fakes ten years ago which were scary then, I hate to think how good they are these days!
Hahahahaha! Good one!
Imagine most ADs having even half a clue what to look for, to establish that each part of a pre-owned watch is genuine.
How very true.
However if these HQ fakes get a foothold in the market I can see the value of second hand Rolexes falling in the long run as has happened with certain antiques etc in the past that have been forged to a convincing degree.
It's like investments in a way, once investor confidence is hit........
Cheers,
Neil.
Why not start a new thread “ Why are Rolex such poor value for money ?” Or why can’t I buy a Rolex President Day-Date Or Daytona for £450.
Rolex manufacturing costs and/or exorbitant profits have little to do with this post in my opinion.
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Thanks for the post and heads up
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