In think we are rapidly approaching a world where rare and valuable vintage pieces can be replicated perfectly, in NOS condition. A block chain based replacement for paperwork that generates an encryption key that verifies the history may help, but at some point rare items may lose their value.
The art world has survived so far in the face of hard to spot forgeries, but in the long term, this kind of thing may radically change the way the global economy works. To an extent, it already has.
My biggest concern is a rogue employee in an AD.
They could easily be switching these in for the real watches and go undetected for years. Assuming the fakes last a while.
Given the staff are typically not highly waged the temptation is there ...
Could we foresee a day when fakes are so good that someone with a genuine watch takes it to an AD to have it serviced and is greeted by, "But Sir, your watch, serial number XXXXX was serviced just last week."
I’m happy that both my GMT and Explorer 2 are genuine; one was bought from Watchfinder but has had a new bezel insert fitted at RSJ so I’m happy about that one. The other was bought from Haywood himself and given his reputation I’m 100% confident that one’s genuine too.
I’d still be wary of buying from Watchfinder; I’m not convinced they’re as thorough as Haywood who I’d happily buy another watch from without a second thought!
Personally, if I was in Bonesey's position, I would be careful about admitting he has sold and intends to sell counterfeit goods in the future.
His ownership of these goods is legal but he commits a criminal offence when he sells, even though he is openly selling it as counterfeit.
People can't avoid the law by just selling fakes as fakes, if they could, these sort of goods would be openly sold everywhere in the UK.
Mitch
Now that I flip watches less frequently I tend to buy ones without service history and immediately post it off for service to the manufacturer. Last one was a Brietling at a very reasonable cost, no box or papers but after a £400+ service cost I am now 100% sure it is genuine and runs better also. Must admit I was confident anyway in the sellers reputation and history.
Come the time to move it on and I'm sure the buyer will be more secure as it will have a Brietling warranty, servicing done and I would hope to get back £200>300 of the service cost. Sad state of affairs we have to go this far.
Everytime I buy some watch I am not that familiar with online, I check what how the best fake of that particular model looks like and what are the giveaways, helps if it has inhouse movement and glass caseback...
The temptation must be very high compared to drugs for example. If a shady individual can palm off a £400 fake Rolex for £4000, with no worries about smuggling the watch into the country, rival gangs, and almost certainly a paltry punishment compared to distribution of drugs if caught, it's going to happen. A lot.
Oh good, an interesting and useful post on the subject of fake watches has once again been derailed by the bores, on the pragmatics and insinuation of what fakes constitute and whatever else.
The worst thing being, it's not even discussion, it's just banging a drum and shouting loudly and refusing to listen to another view.
Thanks for posting this Haywood, I enjoyed seeing the post; very interesting to see the papers etc. I first saw some incredible fakes in Thailand a few years back and was amazed when people on here were saying they'd always be able to tell a fake apart, I was thinking without a genuine next to it, I wouldn't have done. Yeah, the $5-20 ones were easy, but the ones at several hundred dollars were incredible; I couldn't see any tells.
Certainly makes you think about buying the seller even more.
Its only deceitful if someone try's to pass it off as the real thing.
Look at the car market. There are lots of Porsche replicas (RS, GT2, etcs), but they are not being sold as the real thing - simply as replicas.
The vast majority of normal folk dont give a monkeys about an item being fake or replica unless they are told it's a real thing. It's this that is deceitful.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
A really interesting thread. I knew of the existence of fakes/replicas/counterfeits but hadn't realised how many brands were affected. It will certainly be interesting to see which way the prices will go: higher at the AD and lower in the used/grey market perhaps?
Excuse my ignorance, but who is SC?
I have to say I'd buy one of these if offered to me for a reasonable sum, say £100.
I'm not interested at all in counterfeits and while I once had a Helson to find out if I really did want a Seamaster 1000 (I did) I have no interest in homages. In this case though, I'd make an exception providing every 'Rolex' was first changed to 'Bolox'. I quite fancy wearing a 'Bolox'.
I can't help but wonder if the movements are any good. The manufacturer is obviously only interested in selling on the watch and won't care what happens once it's sold. I'm sure I read somewhere that a lot of Georgian houses weren't considered when new to be well enough put together to last more than 75-100 years. It would be fascinating to see how these do over time and if a market will grow for parts to keep them going.
It all reinforces my rule that if I'm buying a Rolex from someone (other than the likes of Hilton or Mike) I'll be doing the deal in St James's.
"A man of little significance"
Just think how many are in circulation at the moment, not to mention the one H&M handed back.
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Hahahaha Bless yer Haywood
Great informative original post, thanks for sharing.
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If they can’t spot your name how will they spot a fake?
Milwood hayton
In other news Ebay allows the selling of all kinds of fakes
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fake-1-On...sAAOSwxixaHR84
Maywood Hilton?
I refer the honourable gentlemen to:
http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.ph...t-eddie-platts
"A man of little significance"
Thanks for sharing Haywood. Brilliantly informative.
A bit off topic but since the Chinese managed to get so close to the real thing for fraction of the price - a very good quality replica like this one is less than a grand still I believe, what justification does Rolex have to charge these ridiculous prices I wonder (I know why obviously but let's say we leave the hype and stamp of being fully Swiss Made by Rolex themselves out of it).
^ Yawn.
Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.
^^ thanks for your input.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
^ You are welcome.
Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.
^^ kein Problemchen Raffchen.
There is no justification. There needs to be no justification.
You say you "know why obviously". So do l - l choose to buy the real thing regardless.
The brainwashed brand fans are a sad but inevitable element of a forum like this, as are the brand haters. The realists, like atheists in religious debate are the most misunderstood.
The prices cannot possibly be ridiculous - people pay them and then come on here to brag about it. The residuals speak for themself.
I say again. No justification required.
Edit - of course rolex doesn't represent "value for money" - that's why they don't stock them in Wilco...
Last edited by Umbongo; 14th January 2018 at 22:12.
I'm sorry, I didn't realise it's going to be received like that and it wasn't my intention to upset anyone. The reaction is bizarre to be honest. It's a bit like asking a question on e.g. a car forum whether a perceived value of a modern BMW range qualifies it to still be called a premium brand. I'd never expect people to get upset over that.
The subject of fake watches is a touchy subject on this forum - most view this as supporting criminal activity and damaging the the watch market and the interests of collectors/enthusiasts.
We have a few who seem to think it's no big deal but thankfully they are an extreme minority who practically nobody would buy anything from.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
I'm neither a hater nor a fan. I like Rolex, I owned a couple. I still own my Tudor BB steel. The question was of philosophical nature whether the justification is still justified and when does it stop being justified. But then again watches aren't something one buys because one has to so there's not much logic in that process hence the question potentially was misplaced.
It feels weird having to explain myself like I did something wrong. It's almost like I posted a message praising Trump on a forum run by neomarxists hahaha.
I am new here, but there are bound to be sensitivities where people have spent so much money on an item, partly for exclusivity. It's somewhat similar to chavs in Burberry.
You did nothing wrong. But the question is self defeating. Of course rolex watches are massively overpriced. Of course they cost peanuts to make versus what they charge. But if you want one then that's what they cost. And the better "value" alternatives may cost much less, but they're not quite as good.
The first 95% comes relatively cheap - it's the last 5 that ramps things up. You choose if you want that bit extra.
There are certainly such types. But it's not nearly that simple.
If something is crap, regardless of branding and marketing, it will eventually be outed as such.
You are entirely correct about the exclusivity element though. Some people just like to brag - it becomes subconscious for some. They don't even think they're doing it.