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Thread: Warning: epidemic of much better fakes that have fooled many in the trade

  1. #201

    Warning: epidemic of much better fakes that have fooled many in the trade

    Quote Originally Posted by NigeG View Post
    I’d guess that most brands have some form of warranty registration scheme but it seems, shall we say, a little ad hoc.

    My last two purchases (FOIS bought online and Speedy Tuesday from Omega Boutique) the former has the warranty dated and stamped but no name, the latter has my name on it too. However I’ve no way of knowing what got sent to Omega, or if the cards contain electronic data.
    AFAIK the Breitling one has an electronic display (similar to LCD) so viewable by everyone.
    If Omega contains electronic data, not that useful if card reader is needed to access it.

  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingstepper View Post
    AFAIK the Breitling one has an electronic display (similar to LCD) so viewable by everyone.
    If Omega contains electronic data, not that useful if card reader is needed to access it.
    Ok thanks, and yes I’d agree ref the need for a card reader.

  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by verv View Post
    Thanks for this HM. Really fascinating stuff.
    I had no idea about the uv on card. I will use it in future. See, not just for making lume glow like a torch :)
    Also useful for confirming the presence of ringworm....apparently it fluoresces under UV light...

  4. #204
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    Warning: epidemic of much better fakes that have fooled many in the trade

    In think we are rapidly approaching a world where rare and valuable vintage pieces can be replicated perfectly, in NOS condition. A block chain based replacement for paperwork that generates an encryption key that verifies the history may help, but at some point rare items may lose their value.

    The art world has survived so far in the face of hard to spot forgeries, but in the long term, this kind of thing may radically change the way the global economy works. To an extent, it already has.

  5. #205
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    My biggest concern is a rogue employee in an AD.

    They could easily be switching these in for the real watches and go undetected for years. Assuming the fakes last a while.

    Given the staff are typically not highly waged the temptation is there ...

  6. #206
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    Could we foresee a day when fakes are so good that someone with a genuine watch takes it to an AD to have it serviced and is greeted by, "But Sir, your watch, serial number XXXXX was serviced just last week."

  7. #207
    Grand Master Dave+63's Avatar
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    I’m happy that both my GMT and Explorer 2 are genuine; one was bought from Watchfinder but has had a new bezel insert fitted at RSJ so I’m happy about that one. The other was bought from Haywood himself and given his reputation I’m 100% confident that one’s genuine too.

    I’d still be wary of buying from Watchfinder; I’m not convinced they’re as thorough as Haywood who I’d happily buy another watch from without a second thought!

  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave+63 View Post

    I’d still be wary of buying from Watchfinder; I’m not convinced they’re as thorough as Haywood who I’d happily buy another watch from without a second thought!
    I guess every dealer will HAVE to be as thorough from now on, as they'll get stung! Though of course, many punters won't realise their 'Rolex' is a fake either and be blissfully unaware....

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Bonesey View Post
    No different from the flipping habits of people on here. Use SC to try something out, get bored, move it on. Rinse repeat until you have what you're happy with. And thanks for your concern, I have some very nice genuine watches, more genuine ones than fakes for sure.

    As regards putting them back in circulation there are countless millions of fakes manufactured each year. Any that might get traded amongst the replica forum dwellers is less than a drop in that ocean and far less likely to hit any sort of general circulation. Buy the seller not the watch ( then double check the watch).

    Personally, if I was in Bonesey's position, I would be careful about admitting he has sold and intends to sell counterfeit goods in the future.
    His ownership of these goods is legal but he commits a criminal offence when he sells, even though he is openly selling it as counterfeit.

    People can't avoid the law by just selling fakes as fakes, if they could, these sort of goods would be openly sold everywhere in the UK.



    Mitch

  10. #210
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    Now that I flip watches less frequently I tend to buy ones without service history and immediately post it off for service to the manufacturer. Last one was a Brietling at a very reasonable cost, no box or papers but after a £400+ service cost I am now 100% sure it is genuine and runs better also. Must admit I was confident anyway in the sellers reputation and history.
    Come the time to move it on and I'm sure the buyer will be more secure as it will have a Brietling warranty, servicing done and I would hope to get back £200>300 of the service cost. Sad state of affairs we have to go this far.

  11. #211
    Craftsman Exiztence's Avatar
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    Everytime I buy some watch I am not that familiar with online, I check what how the best fake of that particular model looks like and what are the giveaways, helps if it has inhouse movement and glass caseback...

  12. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobDad View Post
    Sadly, with no disrespect to any forum members or HM, the only way I’d buy a Rolex in 2018 would be brand new from an AD. I’ve actually felt this way for years as the temptation to sell a knock-off Rolex must be huge as the profits to be made (now a new steel Sub costs as much as a small car) are probably worth the risk to the criminal fraternity. And if it takes an expert to spot a fake, then I’m afraid I’m out. I’m not for a moment suggesting anyone on her has knowingly sold a fake watch, but if they’re so hard to spot then how would you know?


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    The temptation must be very high compared to drugs for example. If a shady individual can palm off a £400 fake Rolex for £4000, with no worries about smuggling the watch into the country, rival gangs, and almost certainly a paltry punishment compared to distribution of drugs if caught, it's going to happen. A lot.

  13. #213
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    Oh good, an interesting and useful post on the subject of fake watches has once again been derailed by the bores, on the pragmatics and insinuation of what fakes constitute and whatever else.
    The worst thing being, it's not even discussion, it's just banging a drum and shouting loudly and refusing to listen to another view.

    Thanks for posting this Haywood, I enjoyed seeing the post; very interesting to see the papers etc. I first saw some incredible fakes in Thailand a few years back and was amazed when people on here were saying they'd always be able to tell a fake apart, I was thinking without a genuine next to it, I wouldn't have done. Yeah, the $5-20 ones were easy, but the ones at several hundred dollars were incredible; I couldn't see any tells.
    Certainly makes you think about buying the seller even more.

  14. #214
    Grand Master Andyg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belligero View Post
    That doesn’t make it right, though. It’s a deceitful term that’s used to make counterfeiting sound less shady, and those who don’t want to give this impression would do well to avoid it.

    Its only deceitful if someone try's to pass it off as the real thing.

    Look at the car market. There are lots of Porsche replicas (RS, GT2, etcs), but they are not being sold as the real thing - simply as replicas.

    The vast majority of normal folk dont give a monkeys about an item being fake or replica unless they are told it's a real thing. It's this that is deceitful.

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
    Friedrich Nietzsche


  15. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andyg View Post
    Its only deceitful if someone try's to pass it off as the real thing.

    Look at the car market. There are lots of Porsche replicas (RS, GT2, etcs), but they are not being sold as the real thing - simply as replicas.

    The vast majority of normal folk dont give a monkeys about an item being fake or replica unless they are told it's a real thing. It's this that is deceitful.
    If it says Rolex on the dial, it's fraud. Anyone dealing with them commits a crime. Easy.
    Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.

  16. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by LukeBird View Post
    Oh good, an interesting and useful post on the subject of fake watches has once again been derailed by the bores, on the pragmatics and insinuation of what fakes constitute and whatever else.
    The worst thing being, it's not even discussion, it's just banging a drum and shouting loudly and refusing to listen to another view.

    Thanks for posting this Haywood, I enjoyed seeing the post; very interesting to see the papers etc. I first saw some incredible fakes in Thailand a few years back and was amazed when people on here were saying they'd always be able to tell a fake apart, I was thinking without a genuine next to it, I wouldn't have done. Yeah, the $5-20 ones were easy, but the ones at several hundred dollars were incredible; I couldn't see any tells.
    Certainly makes you think about buying the seller even more.

    I was thinking the same............

  17. #217
    Master Templogin's Avatar
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    A really interesting thread. I knew of the existence of fakes/replicas/counterfeits but hadn't realised how many brands were affected. It will certainly be interesting to see which way the prices will go: higher at the AD and lower in the used/grey market perhaps?

    Excuse my ignorance, but who is SC?

  18. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by Templogin View Post

    Excuse my ignorance, but who is SC?
    More what is SC?

    The Sales Corner. You can’t see it yet. I think it’s 50 posts and possibly 90 days membership of the forum before you get to view.

  19. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick P View Post
    Hi Hood

    The main difference is that people go into a LV shop, buy the goods and would not be the sort of person to buy second hand. We were in Florence earlier in the year and you almost had to fight you way into the many LV shops that were there. These people appeared to be wealthy and just would not even think of buying second hand. Also they wouldn't need to sell it, they would just give it to someone.

    Rolex watches has a thriving new and second hand market and private sales are the norm. If you cannot trust yourself or even the most honest person on this forum to swear to the almighty that his watch is genuine, then the dynamics of the market change and I doubt if any of us can sensibly predict which way it will go.
    That's not true.
    There are a lot of company's specifically selling second had bags belts and other luxury items, just the same as used watches. In fact some of the vintage LV and Hermes pieces are far more expensive than new models.

  20. #220
    Master Templogin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NigeG View Post
    More what is SC?

    The Sales Corner. You can’t see it yet. I think it’s 50 posts and possibly 90 days membership of the forum before you get to view.
    Thank you.

    That's one nearer the fifty!

  21. #221
    Grand Master Foxy100's Avatar
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    I have to say I'd buy one of these if offered to me for a reasonable sum, say £100.

    I'm not interested at all in counterfeits and while I once had a Helson to find out if I really did want a Seamaster 1000 (I did) I have no interest in homages. In this case though, I'd make an exception providing every 'Rolex' was first changed to 'Bolox'. I quite fancy wearing a 'Bolox'.

    I can't help but wonder if the movements are any good. The manufacturer is obviously only interested in selling on the watch and won't care what happens once it's sold. I'm sure I read somewhere that a lot of Georgian houses weren't considered when new to be well enough put together to last more than 75-100 years. It would be fascinating to see how these do over time and if a market will grow for parts to keep them going.

    It all reinforces my rule that if I'm buying a Rolex from someone (other than the likes of Hilton or Mike) I'll be doing the deal in St James's.
    "A man of little significance"

  22. #222
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    Just think how many are in circulation at the moment, not to mention the one H&M handed back.




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  23. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Volvomanuk View Post
    ...not to mention the one H&M handed back.
    Even Beaker wouldn't try to sell a Rolex to a fashion store.

    Elsewhere in the thread I have been "Hilton" and "Heywood."

    Twits ;-)

  24. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton View Post
    Even Beaker wouldn't try to sell a Rolex to a fashion store.

    Elsewhere in the thread I have been "Hilton" and "Heywood."

    Twits ;-)
    Hahahaha Bless yer Haywood

    Great informative original post, thanks for sharing.



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  25. #225
    Master Templogin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton View Post
    Even Beaker wouldn't try to sell a Rolex to a fashion store.

    Elsewhere in the thread I have been "Hilton" and "Heywood."

    Twits ;-)
    Be glad you haven't been described as Wayward

  26. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton View Post
    Even Beaker wouldn't try to sell a Rolex to a fashion store.

    Elsewhere in the thread I have been "Hilton" and "Heywood."

    Twits ;-)
    If they can’t spot your name how will they spot a fake?

    Milwood hayton

    In other news Ebay allows the selling of all kinds of fakes





    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fake-1-On...sAAOSwxixaHR84

  27. #227
    Maywood Hilton?

  28. #228
    Grand Master Chris_in_the_UK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingstepper View Post
    Maywood Hilton?
    Is this on TripAdvisor?
    When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........

  29. #229
    Grand Master Foxy100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton View Post
    Even Beaker wouldn't try to sell a Rolex to a fashion store.

    Elsewhere in the thread I have been "Hilton" and "Heywood."

    Twits ;-)
    I refer the honourable gentlemen to:

    http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.ph...t-eddie-platts
    "A man of little significance"

  30. #230
    Thanks for sharing Haywood. Brilliantly informative.

  31. #231
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    A bit off topic but since the Chinese managed to get so close to the real thing for fraction of the price - a very good quality replica like this one is less than a grand still I believe, what justification does Rolex have to charge these ridiculous prices I wonder (I know why obviously but let's say we leave the hype and stamp of being fully Swiss Made by Rolex themselves out of it).

  32. #232
    Grand Master Raffe's Avatar
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    ^ Yawn.
    Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.

  33. #233
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    ^^ thanks for your input.


  34. #234
    Grand Master Andyg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raffe View Post
    If it says Rolex on the dial, it's fraud. Anyone dealing with them commits a crime. Easy.

    Wrong - if it says Rolex on the dial its an infringement of copy right.

    It becomes fraud if they attempt to pass it on as genuine.

    Easy!

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
    Friedrich Nietzsche


  35. #235
    Grand Master Raffe's Avatar
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    ^ You are welcome.
    Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.

  36. #236
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    ^^ kein Problemchen Raffchen.

  37. #237
    Grand Master Chris_in_the_UK's Avatar
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    You posted that on a watch forum and expected some support/dialogue.

    Grow up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparjar View Post
    ^^ thanks for your input.

    - - - Updated - - -
    When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........

  38. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by Sparjar View Post
    A bit off topic but since the Chinese managed to get so close to the real thing for fraction of the price - a very good quality replica like this one is less than a grand still I believe, what justification does Rolex have to charge these ridiculous prices I wonder (I know why obviously but let's say we leave the hype and stamp of being fully Swiss Made by Rolex themselves out of it).
    There is no justification. There needs to be no justification.

    You say you "know why obviously". So do l - l choose to buy the real thing regardless.

    The brainwashed brand fans are a sad but inevitable element of a forum like this, as are the brand haters. The realists, like atheists in religious debate are the most misunderstood.

    The prices cannot possibly be ridiculous - people pay them and then come on here to brag about it. The residuals speak for themself.

    I say again. No justification required.

    Edit - of course rolex doesn't represent "value for money" - that's why they don't stock them in Wilco...
    Last edited by Umbongo; 14th January 2018 at 22:12.

  39. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_in_the_UK View Post
    You posted that on a watch forum and expected some support/dialogue.

    Grow up.
    I'm sorry, I didn't realise it's going to be received like that and it wasn't my intention to upset anyone. The reaction is bizarre to be honest. It's a bit like asking a question on e.g. a car forum whether a perceived value of a modern BMW range qualifies it to still be called a premium brand. I'd never expect people to get upset over that.

  40. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparjar View Post
    A bit off topic but since the Chinese managed to get so close to the real thing for fraction of the price - a very good quality replica like this one is less than a grand still I believe, what justification does Rolex have to charge these ridiculous prices I wonder (I know why obviously but let's say we leave the hype and stamp of being fully Swiss Made by Rolex themselves out of it).
    Oh. A Chinese sweatshop with zero labour laws can knock out a watch in different steel with a different movement for under a grand.
    Whoop de doo.
    Rolex bleat prices bleat sheep bleat.

  41. #241
    Grand Master Raffe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andyg View Post
    Wrong - if it says Rolex on the dial its an infringement of copy right.

    It becomes fraud if they attempt to pass it on as genuine.

    Easy!
    When I say it's fraud, I mean the passing-on of it. So we are saying the same thing.
    Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.

  42. #242
    Grand Master Chris_in_the_UK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparjar View Post
    I'm sorry, I didn't realise it's going to be received like that and it wasn't my intention to upset anyone. The reaction is bizarre to be honest. It's a bit like asking a question on e.g. a car forum whether a perceived value of a modern BMW range qualifies it to still be called a premium brand. I'd never expect people to get upset over that.
    The subject of fake watches is a touchy subject on this forum - most view this as supporting criminal activity and damaging the the watch market and the interests of collectors/enthusiasts.

    We have a few who seem to think it's no big deal but thankfully they are an extreme minority who practically nobody would buy anything from.
    When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........

  43. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by Umbongo View Post
    There is no justification. There needs to be no justification.

    You say you "know why obviously". So do l - l choose to buy the real thing regardless.

    The brainwashed brand fans are a sad but inevitable element of a forum like this, as are the brand haters. The realists, like atheists in religious debate are the most misunderstood.

    The prices cannot possibly be ridiculous - people pay them and then come on here to brag about it. The residuals speak for themself.

    I say again. No justification required.
    I'm neither a hater nor a fan. I like Rolex, I owned a couple. I still own my Tudor BB steel. The question was of philosophical nature whether the justification is still justified and when does it stop being justified. But then again watches aren't something one buys because one has to so there's not much logic in that process hence the question potentially was misplaced.

    It feels weird having to explain myself like I did something wrong. It's almost like I posted a message praising Trump on a forum run by neomarxists hahaha.

  44. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by verv View Post
    Oh. A Chinese sweatshop with zero labour laws can knock out a watch in different steel with a different movement for under a grand.
    Whoop de doo.
    Rolex bleat prices bleat sheep bleat.
    I would agree with your statement had Rolex not owned Tudor who's quality isn't that far off Rolex but the prices are. Which clearly suggests it's not the labour, materials, R&D but rather brand perception that creates the prices.

  45. #245
    Master Templogin's Avatar
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    I am new here, but there are bound to be sensitivities where people have spent so much money on an item, partly for exclusivity. It's somewhat similar to chavs in Burberry.

  46. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparjar View Post
    I would agree with your statement had Rolex not owned Tudor who's quality isn't that far off Rolex but the prices are. Which clearly suggests it's not the labour, materials, R&D but rather brand perception that creates the prices.
    Should Skoda be the same price as VW ?

  47. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Ally- View Post
    Should Skoda be the same price as VW ?
    Have you seen their latest price list?

  48. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by Sparjar View Post
    I'm neither a hater nor a fan. I like Rolex, I owned a couple. I still own my Tudor BB steel. The question was of philosophical nature whether the justification is still justified and when does it stop being justified. But then again watches aren't something one buys because one has to so there's not much logic in that process hence the question potentially was misplaced.

    It feels weird having to explain myself like I did something wrong. It's almost like I posted a message praising Trump on a forum run by neomarxists hahaha.
    You did nothing wrong. But the question is self defeating. Of course rolex watches are massively overpriced. Of course they cost peanuts to make versus what they charge. But if you want one then that's what they cost. And the better "value" alternatives may cost much less, but they're not quite as good.
    The first 95% comes relatively cheap - it's the last 5 that ramps things up. You choose if you want that bit extra.

  49. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by Templogin View Post
    I am new here, but there are bound to be sensitivities where people have spent so much money on an item, partly for exclusivity. It's somewhat similar to chavs in Burberry.
    There are certainly such types. But it's not nearly that simple.

    If something is crap, regardless of branding and marketing, it will eventually be outed as such.

    You are entirely correct about the exclusivity element though. Some people just like to brag - it becomes subconscious for some. They don't even think they're doing it.

  50. #250
    Grand Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparjar View Post
    I would agree with your statement had Rolex not owned Tudor who's quality isn't that far off Rolex but the prices are. Which clearly suggests it's not the labour, materials, R&D but rather brand perception that creates the prices.
    It's far off enough to merit the price difference.

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