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Thread: Warning: epidemic of much better fakes that have fooled many in the trade

  1. #351
    Craftsman johnthemull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JGJG View Post
    ^ this.

    Haywood’s initial post on this thread, when coupled with the comic cluelessness exhibited in my local AD, have made me completely revise my view of their used wares.

    I used to have an inchoate sense that even an outfit such as theirs would have no trouble spotting the major issues in a fake; now that those issues are slighter, I don’t think I would trust many used watches (of the type and price to attract forgery) from many sources.
    I see your point. Haywood’s original post was interesting. However I am a little unnerved that the conclusions being made afterwards are that only a handful of experts are now in a position to tell a real luxury watch from a fake. This applying to all brands. Is there enough evidence in the OP to make this conclusion? If yes, then the SC is in for a quiet year and Haywood a busy one!

  2. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by P4u1 View Post
    Very scary - thanks for the heads up.

    I'm in the market for a Sub, I'd rather purchase a secondhand one but posts like this make me think I should just put my name down on a waitling for a new one.
    And the reason why Rolex aren't worried by the fake market. It pushes the customers through their dealers doors due to concern about authenticity. Those who buy fakes wouldn't buy a genuine Rolex in the first place so they aren't losing customers.

  3. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnthemull View Post
    I see your point. Haywood’s original post was interesting. However I am a little unnerved that the conclusions being made afterwards are that only a handful of experts are now in a position to tell a real luxury watch from a fake. This applying to all brands. Is there enough evidence in the OP to make this conclusion? If yes, then the SC is in for a quiet year and Haywood a busy one!
    Believe me when I say that this thread has gone to places I never intended.

    H

  4. #354
    Master AlphaOmega's Avatar
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    This thread has been a bit of a wake-up call for me - thanks for starting it, H.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton View Post
    Believe me when I say that this thread has gone to places I never intended.

    H
    And it hasn't finished yet.

    There is a life cycle of threads and this isn't the end by a long chalk. It's not even the beginning of the end. It might be the end of the beginning though.

    We've had no mention of Nazis.

    Or hyenas in congress.

    Give it time.

  5. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton View Post
    Believe me when I say that this thread has gone to places I never intended.

    H
    But when an expert says what you did, people will naturally be worried. They'd be daft not to be concerned.Because these fakes will presumably continue to improve. Most of us aren't remotely expert, and never can be, if only because we don't handle enough watches. The potential for fraud seems so high.....

  6. #356
    Grand Master Foxy100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_in_the_UK View Post
    You seem to have been heavily involved in fakes for years.

    https://www.rw-forum.com/topic/60776...ll-the-basics/
    Just a thought here, assuming you can't drive every single person who's ever been involved in fake watches off this forum, would it be better if we knew who the likes of Bonesey were, so if they offer a watch for sale we can make up our minds about whether to deal with them or not, or would it be better if they stayed silent? I wonder if it wouldn't be better to ask Eddie for a sticky at the top of SC containing the names (and links) to people who've admitted to or been caught out having an involvement with fakes? IIRC the replica/fake forum did some sterling work on Zsayub (spelling?). We don't have to agree with or like fakes/replicas and the people involved in that kind of thing but it might be worth accepting it happens and doing as much as possible to make people aware and protected against being scammed.
    You can live in your car but you can't drive your house.

  7. #357
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    Always be close to the enemy. It is better to befriend them and learn from them. You don't have to like them but never isolate them.

  8. #358
    Grand Master Raffe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick P View Post
    Always be close to the enemy. It is better to befriend them and learn from them. You don't have to like them but never isolate them.
    Mick, why don't you come over for a chat and a cup of tea one of these days?
    All good things to those who wait.

  9. #359
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlphaOmega View Post
    This thread has been a bit of a wake-up call for me - thanks for starting it, H.



    And it hasn't finished yet.

    There is a life cycle of threads and this isn't the end by a long chalk. It's not even the beginning of the end. It might be the end of the beginning though.

    We've had no mention of Nazis.

    Or hyenas in congress.

    Give it time.

    Subscribed in anticipation.

  10. #360
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raffe View Post
    Mick, why don't you come over for a chat and a cup of tea one of these days?
    You would probably urinate in it.

  11. #361
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    But at least you would still have your Daytona, which you claim not to like.

  12. #362
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnthemull View Post
    I see your point. Haywood’s original post was interesting. However I am a little unnerved that the conclusions being made afterwards are that only a handful of experts are now in a position to tell a real luxury watch from a fake. This applying to all brands. Is there enough evidence in the OP to make this conclusion? If yes, then the SC is in for a quiet year and Haywood a busy one!
    Agreed - Haywood's post was interesting and informative and yes I think most of us know that fakes are getting better. However to then come to the conclusion that only a handful of experts are now in a position to tell a real Rolex from a fake and that we should therefore all buy from ADs or specialists like Haywood is IMHO taking things very much to the extreme. I am quite comfortable buying from known sellers with a history (buy the seller) and reasonably confident I could spot a fake Rolex. If the seller does not inspire confidence or the watch looks wrong in some way then I would not proceed.

  13. #363
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris56 View Post
    Agreed - Haywood's post was interesting and informative and yes I think most of us know that fakes are getting better. However to then come to the conclusion that only a handful of experts are now in a position to tell a real Rolex from a fake and that we should therefore all buy from ADs or specialists like Haywood is IMHO taking things very much to the extreme. I am quite comfortable buying from known sellers with a history (buy the seller) and reasonably confident I could spot a fake Rolex. If the seller does not inspire confidence or the watch looks wrong in some way then I would not proceed.
    I agree with some of what you have said but most of the sales on TZ are not face to face, and very few chances are there to inspect the watch. Haywood has also intimated that genuine parts are added to watches to make them franken. A few years ago we were buying and selling watches at tops £3K the same watches now go for nearly treble that amount. The second hand market is obviously compromised, I would be very dubious of buying second hand with this knowledge. I think what Haywood has warned is to be vigilant and get a trusted second opinion if your not 100% we put far to much trust in photographs on SC. Maybe more get together's and more knowledge as to what to look for when buying a high end watch is needed?
    As they used to say on Hill Street Blues 'Be careful out there'
    Last edited by wildheart; Yesterday at 16:24.

  14. #364
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris56 View Post
    ...... I am quite comfortable buying from known sellers with a history (buy the seller)..... If the seller does not inspire confidence or the watch looks wrong in some way then I would not proceed.
    That doesn't help you if the seller is genuine and is selling a very good fake unknowingly.

  15. #365
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiny View Post
    That doesn't help you if the seller is genuine and is selling a very good fake unknowingly.
    We all have our own tolerances and experience - as I said I am comfortable in being able to spot a fake Rolex even if it comes from a genuine seller.

  16. #366
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    My conclusion, based on Haywood's comments, is that most people won`t be able to tell a fake from inspecting the outside of the watch. Taking the back off is still a reliable method because the fakes don`t have the free-sprung balance. A carefully taken photograph, with the rotor covering the balance, will look authentic and that's something people need to bear in mind.

    Some of us, myself included, have taken a downbeat view of how the 'super-fakes' could affect the market, but having had time to think about it I`m less convinced. Whilst the fakers are clearly upping the bar in terms of quality/replication skills the folks who know what to look for won't be caught out.

    The difficulty is for many is the onus now placed on opening the caseback. Most sellers won`t want to do that, even I`m wary of opening them because it's all too easy to mark the back if you haven`t got a good quality opening tool (my own Rolex openers aren't brilliant).

    If the fakes start turning up with a free-sprung balance, complete with the screws on the rim for rate adjustment, it really will be a minefield!

    Paul

  17. #367
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    Quote Originally Posted by walkerwek1958 View Post
    My conclusion, based on Haywood's comments, is that most people won`t be able to tell a fake from inspecting the outside of the watch. Taking the back off is still a reliable method because the fakes don`t have the free-sprung balance. A carefully taken photograph, with the rotor covering the balance, will look authentic and that's something people need to bear in mind.

    Some of us, myself included, have taken a downbeat view of how the 'super-fakes' could affect the market, but having had time to think about it I`m less convinced. Whilst the fakers are clearly upping the bar in terms of quality/replication skills the folks who know what to look for won't be caught out.

    The difficulty is for many is the onus now placed on opening the caseback. Most sellers won`t want to do that, even I`m wary of opening them because it's all too easy to mark the back if you haven`t got a good quality opening tool (my own Rolex openers aren't brilliant).

    If the fakes start turning up with a free-sprung balance, complete with the screws on the rim for rate adjustment, it really will be a minefield!

    Paul
    A lot of flippers will be hit because if they find it difficult to sell privately due to people being more cautious, then they are going to have to sell via a dealer and that is going to cost them. The advantage of buying and selling privately is that you can often avoid making a loss. However if you are buying from a dealer and then selling back to them, it will be difficult not to make a loss. That will curtail a lot of activity and reduce demand.

  18. #368
    Another reason not to want a modern Rolex...

  19. #369
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick P View Post
    A lot of flippers will be hit because if they find it difficult to sell privately due to people being more cautious, then they are going to have to sell via a dealer and that is going to cost them. The advantage of buying and selling privately is that you can often avoid making a loss. However if you are buying from a dealer and then selling back to them, it will be difficult not to make a loss. That will curtail a lot of activity and reduce demand.
    I think you're scaremongering.

  20. #370
    Quote Originally Posted by steptoe View Post
    And the reason why Rolex aren't worried by the fake market
    The engraved rehaut, lasered coronet (and, perhaps, increased quality of finishing in recent times) etc. suggest otherwise.

  21. #371
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick P View Post
    A lot of flippers will be hit because if they find it difficult to sell privately due to people being more cautious, then they are going to have to sell via a dealer and that is going to cost them. The advantage of buying and selling privately is that you can often avoid making a loss. However if you are buying from a dealer and then selling back to them, it will be difficult not to make a loss. That will curtail a lot of activity and reduce demand.
    Christ Mick this is panic station stuff.
    I wouldn't want you beside me in the trenches if you duck for cover at any slight danger.
    SC will survive and there will be plenty of Rolex sales I'm sure.

  22. #372
    Master Dave+63's Avatar
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    FWIW I tend to agree with Mick.

    I do think that SC will probably be hit less hard than other places. People will still be more cautious though.

  23. #373
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hood View Post
    SC will survive and there will be plenty of Rolex sales I'm sure.
    Yep. And they'll be cheaper. Less demand means price drop. (That's less demand caused by lack of confidence in the second hand market).

  24. #374
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    As well as a new UV torch I appear to have a genuine warranty card!


  25. #375
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiny View Post
    Yep. And they'll be cheaper. Less demand means price drop. (That's less demand caused by lack of confidence in the second hand market).
    Nope.

  26. #376
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    Quote Originally Posted by verv View Post
    Nope.
    Yeah. You're probably right. Wishful thinking.

  27. #377
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philip View Post
    Another reason not to want a modern Rolex...
    Well I hope you are all proud of yourselves, the Vintage market has just gone through the roof!

  28. #378
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobdog View Post
    Well I hope you are all proud of yourselves, the Vintage market has just gone through the roof!
    Because you don’t believe they’re faking vintage?

  29. #379
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    Quote Originally Posted by JGJG View Post
    Because you don’t believe they’re faking vintage?
    Of course not, they are too busy faking modern ones for the look at me I have a Rolex brigade! lol.

  30. #380
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobdog View Post
    Of course not, they are too busy faking modern ones for the look at me I have a Rolex brigade! lol.
    Yeah. There's no reason to fake some all blue inserts that increase a watches value by $40,000.

    I hope you're joking.

  31. #381
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    Quote Originally Posted by JP Chestnut View Post
    Yeah. There's no reason to fake some all blue inserts that increase a watches value by $40,000.

    I hope you're joking.
    Obviously, it’s called humour.

  32. #382
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobdog View Post
    Obviously, it’s called humour.
    This is the internet. Honestly, it's hard to tell what's humor and what is a ridiculously stupid opinion in this thread.

  33. #383
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    Quote Originally Posted by JGJG View Post
    Because you don’t believe they’re faking vintage?
    You know what, I think they are. Many many years back, 1999 to be exact me and a mate went to Thailand. We stayed in Phuket. There were hundreds and hundreds of obvious fakes. But, hidden in old boxes on some stalls were what looked like antique stuff. Way back then even though I was interested in watches, I didn't have an expensive piece or pieces like I do now. Anyways, I recall really old, bashed up stuff, no straps, glass, bent hands etc, you get the picture. But they were marked Patek, Audemars and the like!!. I knew the names but nowt else. Now they may have actually been gen although I doubt it. The sellers wanted just a few quid, and I was tempted until my mate said 'if they can fake the new stuff, why cant they do the same and make it look old'.

    To this day I honestly don't know if I missed out on some very vintage gems, or dodged a bullet.

    Stuart

  34. #384
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobdog View Post
    Obviously, it’s called humour.
    Good luck with that bob!

  35. #385
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    Quote Originally Posted by verv View Post
    Good luck with that bob!
    You can but try C, you can but try!

  36. #386
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philip View Post
    The engraved rehaut, lasered coronet (and, perhaps, increased quality of finishing in recent times) etc. suggest otherwise.
    . It's not a Rolex solution to stop fakes. It's a reason to only buy from a Rolex main dealer.

  37. #387
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    Quote Originally Posted by JGJG View Post
    Because you don’t believe they’re faking vintage?
    Quote Originally Posted by cinnabull View Post
    You know what, I think they are.
    The most recent Vacheron Constantin 222 sold at auction went for over £30,OOO. Does anyone think that a 70s watch is challenging to reproduce in the year 2018? Quite an incentive there. Surely you could make an almost perfect copy. And that’s an obscure one, what about a red Sub? Frankly a Bitcoin is way harder to reproduce than an expensive vintage watch, and that’s why it’s worth money. And what about a Nautilus? A 70s watch with a 70s movement, think about it, how hard will that be to replicate with technology from the year Twenty Eighteen? Blade Runner was set a few years earlier than that. Things are really going to change, for better or worse.
    Last edited by Itsguy; Today at 02:29.

  38. #388
    It does make me wonder how annoying they (Rolex) must find this.
    One the one hand i don't believe that people who are looking for a real Rolex would particularly look at fakes, but equally i do know people who've been put off buying a real Rolex because they or others they know were constantly being asked "is it real".
    I have no dog in this race because i don't own one, nothing against those who do, so it's just idle curiosity really. I suspect (with no evidence) that the massive faking of Rolex in particular has had some but a rather limited effect on their sales overall.
    Certainly perhaps more than it has had on the sale of, say, PP?
    No concrete facts to back any of this up, just speculation.

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