Reply With QuoteCan’t offer an opinion on the value but sales ‘on behalf of’ are a no-no I think. Has he sought a price from Watchfinder as a comparison to what he’s already been offered?
Hi all,
I've got an interesting watch question from a friend well beyond my knowledge base (and price range!) and thought I would seek the group wisdom of the forum.
He has a Titan Black Deep Sea, a DLCed Rolex Deep Sea. I accept the purists may not like it (or even approve) but to my eye, I do like it. Anyway he wants to get an idea of the residuals on it since he wants to sell it potentially. He has an offer from a pre-owned shop already which he wasn't delighted with. The original RRP was around £14k (I need to check with him on that) I believe so I would have thought around £10k for an excellent condition barely used example should be achievable. Or is it worth potentially less than a standard Deep Sea given the modification. I suppose ultimately it comes down to finding the right buyer but was curious for your thoughts.
http://titanblack.co.uk/collection/r...-sea-deep-blue
I'm also going to check if he wants me to offer it here, he's a good friend so I'm happy to vouch for authenticity etc.
Cheers,
Dan.
Can’t offer an opinion on the value but sales ‘on behalf of’ are a no-no I think. Has he sought a price from Watchfinder as a comparison to what he’s already been offered?
I am not alone in finding these "modified" watches commercially frightening and would not wish to make any offer for it.
If the suppliers (with whom any warranty resides) disappear then where will an owner find service and parts available? Don't count on Rolex themselves being happy to touch a modified watch and even where they are there will be a significant additional cost to returning it to correct specification.
If the owner is frustrated with the pre-owned dealer's offer, how is he measuring that?
How much did the original sellers offer, to buy it back from him? That's so often a very telling question... Commonly, the modifiers are too embarrassed to offer a value they know is realistic and so they will politely decline : "We don't deal in pre-owned...." etc. It's known around here as the "Goldsmiths Get-out," swerving the need to reveal how little something you have sold is now worth compared with what you were able to get away with charging for it in the first place.
If he is disappointed with any offers, he should perhaps direct his frustration at the people who sold it to him.
Only yesterday I received back from Rolex UK a modified Daytona 116520 which I refused to offer on unless certain that it could be returned to original condition. The case and movement were genuine, of course. Rolex UK declined to do it at any price. I have similarly valued at £0 a modified Rolex that had been sold at massive cost to the son of a well known UK billionaire, directed to me because - waddayaknow - he couldn't get it serviced anywhere.
Genuine auctions will generally hammer (ha-ha) such watches. I specify "genuine" because it is easy to see some early auction results and speculate whether an individual trying to create a market has "bid up" his own watches to create false precedents. I have one famous case particularly in mind.
H
Last edited by Haywood_Milton; 11th January 2018 at 11:42.
A very light mix grit blast media will remove MOST DLC coatings, you NEED TO BE CAREFUL as the blast media could potentially removed the etched chapter engravings.
BEST SPEAKING TO JACK ALEXYON he might be able to help.
The only example I can recall on here was one Rick (RJM25R) bought a couple of years ago, a Submariner. (it appears that it came from Miltons... so at some stage they can't have been that frightened by them!) http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.ph...ght=submariner
If I remember rightly he got a cracking deal on it; certainly the going rate for a "standard" model if not quite a bit cheaper.
As above, commercially these are a terrible proposition. A few companies (ProHunter, Bamford etc) sprang up a few years ago and had a lot of success charging over the odds for these PVD versions of regular watches, but I definitely remember the consensus on the forums that 90% of their market vanished when the financial crisis took away the bonuses from the bankers with lots more money than taste.
I think "your friend" would be doing very very well to realise the going rate for a plain Deep Sea. While it's a popular watch, for every 100 people looking for a DS I reckon one or maybe two could be persuaded to buy a modified version. Personally I think he's going to lose his shirt on any deal that he is offered.
<cynic>Haven't you just done so? GLWTS</cynic>Originally Posted by wicheda
______
Jim.
Hang on! Look at the price we asked for that watch and the warnings / disclaimers that we put on it :
https://www.miltonaires.com/product/4727
I believe we sold it in July 2016, so you can gauge what a "negative premium" I applied for the bastardisation.
I think my position in relation to such watches has been entirely consistent! Have you ever seen another dealer writing about a watch he was selling as I did in that listing?
H
Last edited by Haywood_Milton; 11th January 2018 at 12:18.
That's the one! (couldn't find a photo on here - it must have fallen victim to the Photobucket scam).
Anyway cheer up, no-one is questioning your sales integrity, it was a very keen price and was clearly bought (and sold) for a lot less than would usually have been the case for a "proper" steel one. I also remember very well that Rick knew exactly what he was buying and the pitfalls of such, I just found it amusing that the only person on here who I am aware of selling one made the statement;
"I am not alone in finding these "modified" watches commercially frightening and would not wish to make any offer for it."
Quite cheery actually, but was addressing consistency, not integrity, as the former was questioned.That's the one! (couldn't find a photo on here - it must have fallen victim to the Photobucket scam).
Anyway cheer up, no-one is questioning your sales integrity, it was a very keen price and was clearly bought (and sold) for a lot less than would usually have been the case for a "proper" steel one. I also remember very well that Rick knew exactly what he was buying and the pitfalls of such, I just found it amusing that the only person on here who I am aware of selling one made the statement;
"I am not alone in finding these "modified" watches commercially frightening and would not wish to make any offer for it."
I ended up with the watch only because I'd underwritten someone's loan against it, with typically an 80% expectation that it would be repaid. If asked to offer to buy it, I wouldn't have. Ok, perhaps underwriting something even with little expectation of having to realise it is broadly equivalent to an offer, but my disdain for these modified watches and reticence to attribute significant value has not wavered.
I also lent against one of those awful Faux-Hunter things and am so relieved that was reclaimed. I can only imagine the damning vitriol I would have put in my sales pitch for that!
H
Last edited by Haywood_Milton; 11th January 2018 at 12:53.
Watchclub might be the place to try, they 'seem' to be acting as agents for the Pro-hunter range and have several listed at present.
https://www.watchclub.com/the-collection
Who knows, maybe they have a never ending supply of rich Russian, American and Chinese tourists with tons of cash and absolutely no taste.
Next best suggestion is good old e-bay.
I have to say - the black DSSD looks good, and if someone chooses to limit their resale options and value - so be it..... Plenty of watches lose money.
But - the loss of Rolex servicing would be a big concern to me, especially as I believe that parts are not made available to 3rd parties.
Thanks for the information all, that is very useful and I did expect a fairly harsh viewpoint. I do feel like there is a market for them but the servicing angle is a problem clearly. And clearly he will be taking a significant loss from retail.
I'll give them a shout, they seem to have quite a few modified Rolex at "significant" prices.
Well if someone was interested on here, they are welcome to contact me and I can vouch for the deal. But I haven't put a formal FS post up yet so I can gauge a price for him, I've been a member here for a long time (more of a lurker admittedly) and have bought and sold many watches over the years.
Cheers,
Dan.
It seems that some of these modifiers are less than honest about the potential resale value and effect on serviceability. I do feel sorry for those who are finding this out the hard way
Don’t expect their offer to be nearly as optimistic. The market for secondhand modified Rolex is extremely limited.
Then you should be aware that you are not allowed to put up a FS thread, as has been pointed out.
Agreed. I suspect a savvy private buyer and also dealers buying in would be wayyyyyy below list since the coating offers more of a liability than an enhancement.
As I suggester earlier, the most obvious thing is for him to return to the supplier and ask what they would offer to buy it back.
What did they say? If they used the "Goldsmiths Get-out" then let's have it confirmed, at least.
Last edited by Haywood_Milton; 11th January 2018 at 15:04.
If anyone knows of one of those Daytonas with a DLC bezel and the crown guards removed going for 5 grand less than the standard let me know. :D
It's doubly problematic for this particular model, since Rolex apparently won't release the tools required to open them up. I think you'd be looking at a new case and bracelet before Rolex would touch that thing.
Trigger's broom
How could anybody think that modifying a premium watch like this would make it hold value better? It’s like buying a Ford Fiesta, modifying it to Ricer spec and then trying to achieve the same value as a car in its standard form. There’ll be very few people out there for it all of a sudden, compared to a much larger market for the standard car.
So so if he paid £14k, I can’t imagine a dealer offering more than £6k. Rolex warranty will be void, and with a deep sea, pretty much the only people who can service a watch like that are the manufacturer due to the water resistance test equipment for final sealing of the case (after a movement rebuild).
I despise anything like this personally. I’m all for people putting their own stamp on things to be different, but if you have a D-Blue, you already have something very different. To me, it’s a really silly prospect to modify a Watch in such a way purely because it brings so many issues into play when it comes to years down the line. Dealers etc know this and I can see why their offer is low.
I can't find any sympathy for someone who's willing to pay £14k for a 10k watch with black coating. How could they possibly think there's 4 grands worth of additional value in an applied coating?
I have heard that the the likes of Pro Hunter have spare watches and therefore deal with the claims themselves that arise inside the warranty period, by using parts off other watches. cannot confirm this, but it is what I have heard. Reality is that is a Rolex likely to go wrong in two years, probably not. Once out of warranty, i suspect they would still help, but just charge for repairs and servicing at a significant premium.
I'm sure a well financed and historically successful brand like Pro Hunter is going to be there when you need them in 15 years. On second thought...
Selling ‘on behalf of’ is (of course) not allowed on this forum.
Best declare it a write-off.
I guess someone managed to open it up to do the work.
Cheers..
Jase
According to the Titan website the DLC finish can be removed to revert the watch back to oem, I would have to see that to believe it.
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If its a surface coating then I don't see why it wouldn't be possible. As long as its just the coating thats removed and not any metal.
Cheers..
Jase
Sounds reasonable, on the particular watch in question it also has a helium escape valve, that must be very tricky to get right as I can see how they would 100% remove the DLC from that.
I would imagine the cost to remove the finish would also be eye watering but I guess the watch could then be passed off as an oem piece.
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I could sort that out with a dremmel and a bit of wet and dry ...
Passed off? Chicanery IMHO, as the seller would have to avoid mentioning the butchery the watch had been subjected to beforehand. Otherwise a potential buyer would surely buy an unmolested example.
F.T.F.A.
Agreed, my use of the term passed off implied wrong doing.
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Just as an update in case anyone was interested, he seems to have had a private offer near him so is going to take that. Thanks for all the help, it seemed to open up quite a can of worms and has certainly educated me on modified Rolex purchases!
Cheers,
Dan.
Ok......but would you ask him what the original supplier said, when he asked them to make an offer to buy it back?
Thanks, H
Was considering a little venture into a coated Rolex. Aesthetically I do like the look of them but think a massive swerve is called for. Thank you
I suspect as you say they wouldn't be interested in taking them back, they obviously apply a steep mark up to their work and wouldn't want to reveal that in any way. It would be interesting to know for sure though, I'll see if he wants to get in contact with them and ask.
It seems that buying modded Rolexes costs £Xk (Original cost) + £Yk (for the mods).
It is immediately worth £Xk - £Yk.
An interesting way to burn money very quickly, unless you know the watch is an absolute keeper and you can hold onto it until Rolex-forced inflation means your value has risen by the 2 x £Yk that you lost in the first place.
I do, as an aside, find the Rolex attitude very sniffy indeed.
This is the same Rolex that, until relatively recently, routinely replaced older dials hands and inserts with brand new ones during services, wiping many thousands of pounds form the value of their customers watches in exactly the same manner.
Dave
Personally modified Rolex's don't do anything at all for me.
Factory spec more than adequate.
The only buyers must be people with money to throw away!!
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Personally I wouldn’t take it for stock however in the past I have been offered these watches brand new from clients and I quote around 25% less than the RRP of the standard versions at best to purchase.
You can return to stock but having spent £1500 having it DLC’d by the firm that do it overseas you will be another £1500 having it removed!
RIAC
The same thought occurred to me. Did the modifier guarantee the WR of the watch?
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All work covered by the creators of them but voids any Rolex warranty
RIAC
If it is Rolex policy not to service modified watches what happens with engraved case backs?
Can't see that being an issue for them.
Unless a case back needs replacing due to damage or pressure testing they will service any engraved ones
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RIAC
So they will service watches that have been modified by 3rd parties, they just draw the line at some arbitrary point defined by them.
A case back engraved is just a posh scratch!
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RIAC
Yep, that’s their prerogative. What’s your point caller?
My point is that people have been saying that Rolex will not service a modified watch, which is not true.
Ok. Hair splitter. If the case back has been engraved the will. Anything else they won’t. They also will mention on the estimate that polishing to rear of case isn’t done.
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RIAC
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