Reply With QuoteYes, read somewhere that they are illegal to install the USA.
I needed a new gas fire as the old one was decades old. It was bolted to the wall with a small hole into the chimney breast for the flue.
After a foolish quick read on new fires I decided on a Smeg flueless for easy installation, modern looks, and efficient burning. I noticed it had a minimum room size specification which was fine as the room is big enough.
What I failed to see which the gas install guy pointed out was I need a vent in the room so I don't die of oxygen starvation or something. Basically a bloody 5" hole directly to the outside. So after putting double glazed windows, cavity insulation and other heat saving things in place the new fire requires a hole in the wall!!!
After reading up on the vents apparently they have baffles to stop draughts (that's fantastic then) but surely they still just let the cold into the room and I may as well leave a window open all winter. Does anyone else have these vents and are they as bad as I'm thinking with the cold coming into the house? Any experience of these as currently to say I'm a bit miffed is an understatement.
Also with this fire the heat doesn't just come through the glass front like the old one did but out some holes in the top so the fire case gets hot to touch. Unfortunately the new wallpaper gets extremely warm and I don't have much confidence it's going to be on the wall very long. Can wallpaper get hot and cold and still stay on the wall?
Have I made an extremely expensive mistake getting one of these fires?
Cheers Spud.
Yes, read somewhere that they are illegal to install the USA.
My '60s place has a vent in each north facing bedroom. Radiator in each. The main one is okay in terms of heat loss (I don't notice it but I have a reasonably long front garden or road traffic might annoy; but the study... I have to block it up in winter because it makes my hands freeze. It's just above the desk. I don't know who installed them but I'm two boilers at least beyond when they were put in.
Think you might only need vent if >7kW but presumably installer knows the regs.
I’d probably say yes. Where does the exhaust gas go? You are kind of implying it goes into the room?? It must generate a lot of moisture in the combustion process, so the room has to get more humid.
Its a standard 100cm2 for a flueless fire.Originally Posted by Kingstepper
Agree about raised moisture levels.
Probably yes. Make sure you wire mesh the outside vent with the finest ( smallest holes ) wire mesh you can get... or you'll have visitors
Sadly the answer to the OP's question is - yes you have.
Good God, well there's nothing I can do about it now, looks like it's an expensive ornament stuck on the wall. I'd still like to hear of any experience with a vent like this ....
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...bR-Xa0DFjyqjeF
Also where did my old fire get oxygen to burn? Surely the hole in the back was for the waste gases to go up the chimney?
One of the drawbacks to a combustion heater is that it needs copious quantities of air for the combustion to take place, and that means that fresh cold air is drawn into the space by the very act of combustion, thus cooling down the space. Balanced (external vent and incoming air) flue is the best way out of this dilemma.
I had a wood burner fitted into my lounge and the chap refused to fit until I’d put a 5 inch hole through the wall.
I did that myself, with a fixed cowel and thin gauze mesh on the outside, and one of these (see pic) glued on the inside, so you can close it when not in use. It doesn’t have a draft. Is a bit colder near by but nothing to worry about.
You’ll also need to get a CO detector fitted into the room.
I wouldn’t say you’ve made a huge error. Gas saves a whole lot of mess and messing about with wood and coal. Lots of evenings I can’t be bothered to light the real fire, but would happily pop a gas one on which looked nice and gave instant heat.
Last edited by mr noble; 17th December 2017 at 09:07.
Your old fire also effectively sucked air into the room. The gas and oxygen burnt when mixed together and the fumes which will have included some CO and a lot of H2O went out of the vent at the back.
This is the same way that a conventional fireplace works. Most of the hot air and waste gasses go up the chimney and air is drawn into the room to support combustion from outside the room.
If you inhibit this flow with a conventional fire the fire burns slower. If you inhibit the required flow with a gas fire you run the risk of producing more CO. However if this is externally vented the risk is small.
Hence a CO monitor in the room with the fire is essential for the type of fire you have fitted along with the wall vent.
Not an expert! However we were told something similar when we had our wood burner installed.
Which actually meant drilling holes in the frame of our hardwood patio windows and fitting a vent. This was about 15 years ago.
However the room is about 80m2 and the idea of us being starved of oxygen seem remote, therefore about 5 years ago I plugged the holes and fitted a CO2 alarm. Never heard a peep.
If you are really bothered fit an alarm and leave a few internal doors open.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Air ingress is important for the home in many ways. The number of people who have extractor fans in a bathroom and still suffer damp is because modern windows and doors are so well sealed. You can’t get air out of a room if you don’t have a return vent, or register, returning air from outside. The reality of that is cold air coming in. To combat this I use a large heat exchanger, and size makes all the difference. It works like a very efficient condenser dryer heat exchanger and uses two balanced fans. Costly to buy, but no more unpleasant cold drafts in the house and the moisture levels are measurably lower. I no longer even get condensation on the bedroom window on cold mornings after a night of sleeping in there, always used to before hand.
As for CO2 poisoning or asphyxiation from low O2 levels, I dunno. Ask your self how does your gas cooker cope with its lack of flu or room ventilation. You can have the oven on for hours and the gas hobs, I’ve never been killed as a result of that.
I'm a gas engineer and yes you need that vent to outside for combustion air.
The manufacturers instructions need to be followed and that ventilation is there for good reason.
I won't go into the fact you shouldn't have installed it yourself.
Don't these fires also significantly raise humidity leading to potential damp problem?
We have a similar wall mounted fire but it is in a large room. The modern double glazed windows had vents but that was not enough. The installer came up with the suggestion of drilling through the newly installed oak floor which we did but behind the telly in the corner. Job done and when not in use we put a metal vent (no screwed in) over the holes to keep out draft.
JamesC, just out of curiosity do you need passive vents if you have an active home ventilation system? I know my home system exchanges the whole house atmosphere 8 times per day (a little higher in the bathroom and has a boost function for the kitchen for when cooking) so is more effective than a passive vent, however, do you need a passive vent to satisfy gas regs in case of fan failure etc?
Couldn't say to be sure without manufacturers instructions but I would think you need the permanent vent to outside.
All installation requirements what you can and can't do are in the instructions and they may differ slightly with each manufacturer.
Building control regs ( in NI) require vents for wood burning stoves too. Not just one, but two on different aspects if the room allows, in case of variations in wind direction which can make the vent function less effectively.
Our double aspect vents end in a 4” hole directly behind the stove. I have an old cast iron iron that I can block it off with if the stove isn’t lit.
A CO2 alarm will not protect you in this situation.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
CO= Carbon Monoxide, it’s a killer, doing this will invalidate any insurance policies in place, but, then again, you most likely won’t be around to claim if you get a build up will you? Remember, it affects the smaller or weaker most, I hope you don’t have pets, or worse children, or far worse, that none of your houseguests do, can you imagine trying to explain that one to the grieving parents?
https://www.gassaferegister.co.uk/he...ide-poisoning/
There are good HRS:
http://rega-uk.co.uk/tablet/heat-rec...ation-hrv.html
Last edited by Franco; 16th December 2017 at 22:57.
Just for info:
We have a CO alarm installed in the kitchen as we both heat and cook with gas.
We've never heard a peep out of it either but that's not the point. CO is colourless and odourless. You don't actually notice you are dying.
Hi James do you know why we didn't have vents for older fires?
I have a new CO detector and after reading all about these vents I'd never heard I before won't be daft enough to run it without one. I don't know one other person who has a hole in their living room wall to outside but there you go.
I did get a gas engineer to pipe it in btw,
Thanks for all the replies everyone I can see it never being used even with a vent as the wallpaper gets to hot above it. I'd still like to know if these vents are cold though.
cheers Spud.
Depending on the age of the old fire the gas regs at the time may not have required it or previous owners of the house covered it up or one wasn't fitted in the first place.
Not much help I know but that's about the only answers.
And yes they can be cold depending on which way the wall its fitted in faces. North facing walls will have a lot of wind on it and little sun so will be cold.
And on another note I hate gas fires especially flueless ones
AFAIK older houses and lower output woodburners don’t require additional ventilation. We had a 5kw stove professionally fitted in our Victorian house last year, and didn’t need an extra vent, although of course we do have a carbon monoxide detector. Our stove warms our fairly large living room easily, even on the coldest days. And it’s almost always better to watch than the telly....
Last edited by simoscribbler; 17th December 2017 at 13:42.
I really should have a coal/wood burner. My mrs gets free coal, as much as we could ever burn. Just prefer the ease of a remote control gas fire.
We have pets and a child, so thank you for your advice. However without actually seeing the property and considering things like the open space wooden flooring, the gaps upder the doors and the fact my wife likes to open the kitchen windows, its comes across as a bit judgemental, don't you think.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Possibly, but I wouldn’t take the risk myself.
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Many gas fires didn't require ventilation as anything under 7kw would get their air required for combustion from natural sources for example draughts.
Many old radiant fires were 6.9kw for this reason.
Some Decorative Fuel Effect fires require ventilation but it goes by manufacturers instructions as has been said.
Ventilation for open flued appliances is a minefield.
The amount of gas fire, back boilers that you see that have their vents to outside sellotaped over.
Its also amazing the amount of pre-cast flues who's catchment areas are not and have never been to standard.
We have a vent in the lounge, pre existing when we moved in 10yrs ago. Had no need for it & places a plaster plate over it.
Recently had a wood stove installed & pulled the cover off, fearing the worst (7kw stove and prob a bit big for our room, but hated the ‘small window’ stoves).
With the fire off, there is very little draft that comes through from it. When it’s on, you can feel air being drawn through, but unless you are sitting between the vent & fire, you won’t notice it.
I feel more draft from the lounge door with air feeding the fire to be honest, I’ve tried cracking windows in the lounge to try and change the draft & go for full house heating via convection but failing so far!
You haven’t made a mistake in my view & we worried when we moved in about the air brick, but it would appear the fear was unnecessary. Many friends have theirs with the sliding cover & simply open it when they are using the fire.
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“I don't know one other person who has a hole in their living room wall to outside but there you go.”
We have a “regular” wood, coal fire and we have a flue / hole in our wall just above skirting board when the fire was installed a week or two ago with the glazing at the time this would not have been necessary but over the years going from original single glaze to efficient double glazed meant a lack of ventilation so the flue was recommended.
Any ventilation that is required with regards to gas installations should be non closeable or have any covering over it.
That has nothing to do with the ventilation requirements for a room for any given appliance.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
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