Disputes with Goldsmiths over an automatic watch - advice appreciated!

[xlii]

Dear watch lovers,

I am new to this forum. Really wanted to bring something more cheerful to you but I seem to have a dispute with Goldsmiths over an automatic watch and would really be grateful for any advice.

It is a long story:

Purchased an automatic watch from Goldsmiths two weeks ago. To be fair, the staff in the branch were friendly and helpful during the buying process.

Then, the watch stopped three times overnight in the first five days. Note that I was wearing the watch for about 10 hours every day and I was reasonably active every day except the first day. I also followed the instructions to manually wind the watch 20 times when it stopped.

I suspected that the watch had an issue of self-winding mechanism or power reserve or something else - Well, I might be wrong as I am not an expert in watches but I know something was not right. I was wearing a Longines previously and it never stopped over night. In fact, the Longines was running well even if I didn't wear it for a whole day. This watch is a better brand than Longines so I expected it to be performing at least as well as Longines.

So I brought it back to the branch for a replacement. I explained to the lady what happened and even provided a written record of the watch over the five days, indicating when and how many times I manually wound it, how long I was wearing it every day and how active I was everyday, and when it stopped. She said they would need to conduct a test before sending it back to the manufacturer. I said that was fine. I should praise them here because she said in the meantime, they would order a replacement for me, which I think was considerate and would save some time as I will be away for Christmas holiday soon.

Five days later, I received an email from them saying that they have done a five-day test by manually winding the watch 20 times morning and evening and found that the watch was accurate and so not faulty.

I was surprised because I don't think the test makes sense. I don't think test could prove that the watch doesn't have the problem of stopping overnight. Also, why talking about accuracy? At no point I mentioned accuracy. In fact, I was very happy with the accuracy of the watch and have praised the accuracy of the watch with family and friends.

The next day, I discussed this with a staff member from another branch via email extensively without any constructive results. I questioned their test and also asked for a refund or replacement. He insisted that they had done a test and the watch was not faulty and asked me either to agree to send the watch to the manufacturer for assessment or to collect the watch from the branch. he also said that 10 hours' wearing is not enough and the watch needs to be manually wound - this contradicts my own experiences with automatic watches and also the information from the official website of the brand. I know 10 hours wearing is probably not enough to fully wind the watch but it should be enough to keep it running overnight. Actually, my experiences with the Longines was if I wore it for 10 hours during the daytime and left it on the table, it could keep running until the morning of the third day.

Of course I can't collect a watch that stopped three times over night during five days. But I don't want it to be sent for assessment either. First, I am not convinced why their test was able to prove that the watch is not faulty. Second, that would take more time, meaning that I would not be able to receive it before I leave for Christmas holiday. Third, I read from some online reviews that Goldsmiths sent watch around for assessment or repair and the customer received back a much older looking watch (don't quite remember which brand, but not the brand that I purchased).

Yesterday, I received an email from the customer relations of Goldsmiths, on behalf of Goldsmith. Again, they insisted that they have done a test and found no fault. They said they can't give me a refund unless the watch is faulty according to the assessment of the manufacturer because I have worn the watch. They said they gave me two options: sending the watch to the manufacturer for further assessment or collecting the watch from the branch. They also asked me to contact Retailer alternative dispute resoltion (ADR).

I replied to question their test again, also their refunding policy because it says on their website and also on the receipt that refund is guaranteed within 14 days providing that the product is in pristine condition. I said I also gave you two options: refund or replacement - having said that, I don't want to try to be as unreasonable as you are so I would like to give you the third option: if you could explain to me why the test was able to prove that the watch is not faulty and why we need to manually wind an automatic watch to keep it running after 10 hours wearing, I am happy for you to send it to the manufacturer for assessment.

So far, no further response.

Sorry - I know that was a lot to read...

What made me disappointed the most was not that they refused a refund or replacement or their meaningless test, but their attitude. Throughout the discussion, there was not even the slightest sense of apology for the inconvenience caused. I can't find an appropriate word to describe their attitude... Sometimes I worry for Goldsmiths - how could they survive in this increasingly competitive market with this level of customer service?

Now, my questions are:

Do you think the test that they conducted was able to test the possible issues of the watch related to unexpected stoppage overnight? I was confident that the test was not relevant but now I started to doubt it because they are so persistent...

If the watch is not faulty, is it enough to keep an automatic watch running overnight if you wear it for 10 hours and you are reasonably active? Or if an automatic watch stops overnight after you wear it for 10 hours and you are reasonably active during daytime, can we say that it is faulty?

What would be the best way to proceed?

How long would it take or what would be involved to resolve the issue if I contact Retailer ADR?

Many thanks.

[Scepticalist]

Their test is rubbish. As is their assertion that it needs to be manually wound. Nobody manually winds an automatic watch as a matter of routine, let alone every morning and evening.

You have 2 choices: Insist on your 14 day refund (assuming it's ok cosmetically they can hardly say it's not pristine if they're saying it has no fault) or allow them a chance to rectify the situation. To be honest I'd insist that it is sent to the manufacturer for a full test but if you cannot wait for that procedure then a refund is your only option.

[jukeboxs]

I don't agree with them that they cannot offer a full refund as worn - as long as in new condition, a refund should be possible. [I returned a Rolex to WoS, part of the same group as Goldsmiths, after wearing it, although admittedly I returned it the next day, not after a week.]

I would also suggest you do a power reserve test having fully wound the watch and then left it off the wrist, to see if it runs close to the expected limit (eg. 48 hours).

[xlii]

jukeboxs,

Thanks for the advice. I will wait to see if they will refund for me.

I agree with you on the test on power reserve. I said this to them in the email discussion. They just completely ignored the real issue of the watch and my questioning on the test and insisted that they had done a test and found no fault. What can I say?

[xlii]

Scepticalist,

Thanks for your response. Glad to have someone to confirm that their test is rubbish...

I will wait to see if they will process the refund for me although I really like the watch and wanted to wear it when I am away for holiday this time.

[number2]

Welcome,
That's some first post, it would be nice to know what the watch is, but as Scepticalist says it appears to be a ''wrong un'', have you emailed the manufacturer directly?
At the moment I get the impression you're being given the 'run around'.

[xlii]

number2:

Thanks for your advice.

So it would OK if I disclosed the brand name here? :)

Well, it is an Omega de ville for ladies. :) My understanding is that the calibre is 2500D.

I did email the Head of Customer Services of Omega on Thursday, after the extensive email discussion with Goldsmiths. I forwarded the email exchange with Goldsmiths and also the written record of the watch that I provided to Goldsmiths to him. He replied immediately and asked me to enable him more time before being able to reply fully.

[Montello]

Their test will not have tested the automatic winding mechanism.

I’d had thought they would have put it on the watch winder in the day and left it on the bench overnight.

[paskinner]

You do have a slight dilemma....you have a right to reject a faulty watch, the retailer has the right to check that it is faulty. In this case they're too dumb to check adequately. Which means the watch has to go to Omega to prove it does have a fault. Sadly, there's no way round this when a shop is so blind to their customers.
Infuriating. But I could tell you far worse tales .....anyway, good luck. They ruined your enjoyment.

[bobbee]

It beggars belief that they didn't offer a replacement or a refund as per their promise.

[NigeG]

The watch is currently at the Goldsmiths branch that you originally bought it from, yes?

You’re wasting your time sending emails back and forth in my opinion.

Far better to turn up in person in the store and be prepared to forcibly argue your position, but done politely. Do not lose your temper, do not shout and swear. Demand to speak to the Manager not the Sales Assistants.

Be clear and concise about describing the fault. Do not let them interrupt and push you down a different route. Insist that the Manager takes notes.

State the facts as they are, which appears to be the Power Reserve of this Automatic Watch is outside of Omega’s stated parameters. That you have wound the watch an appropriate amount of times before wearing it and it failed to keep running after one night off of your wrist. Ask the Manager, who will probably be wearing a nice watch, if he / she would accept a £3k watch that will not run for 10 hours without winding it up. There is only one answer.....

Be clear that when Goldsmiths performed their tests they were measuring accuracy and not power reserve. Due to their faffing around you have lost all faith in them being able to correctly diagnose the fault. That you’re experienced in wearing automatic watches previously, you’ve got your Longines as proof, and can correctly wind one up sufficiently.

Finally tell the Manager what he / she has to do to put the situation right. That is up to you: Full refund, a New replacement watch or a repair of the faulty watch. These options are in line with the Consumer Rights Act October 2015. Personally I’d be asking for my money back.

Be prepared for an amount of pushback, stick to your guns be forceful but polite. Make sure that you tell the Manager that you’re quite prepared to take them to Court if they do not do as you ask.

Lastly, if you paid by credit card you can speak with them as the watch is not fit for purpose.

[MB2]

I do wonder how they are testing it ? I had a watch that kept stopping & restarting - 2 watchmakers passed it as good but credit to the seller he sent it to a third who found the fault.

If you like the watch (which I assume you do) I would ask for it to be sent to Omega for a once over.

[xlii]

ooooops, they have done another "test".

No sufficient information was given. they just said "manually wound it in the morning but not in the evening. checked in the following morning and it was functioning as expected". how many times did they wind it? what was the test for? they didn't say.

This is from their customer relations in HQ, "on behalf of Goldsmiths".

OK, they "won". I have decided not to let them mess around my watch anymore. Now I have to go for holiday without my watch anyway. So, off to Omega for further assessment.

No explanation for how the test was messed up. No apology.

Byebye, Goldsmiths.

[japester]

Do we know what the specified power reserve of the watch is?
Might make more sense if we know the model of the watch in question. Maybe someone on here has one and can say how theirs behaves.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[xlii]

Japester,

The power reserve time of this watch is 48 hours. The longines that I was wearing previously is 40 hours. So I actually expected this one to be performing better than the Longines.

I did not mention the brand name as they are innocent in this case and I didn't want to cause any unnecessary damage to the brand name - well, manufacturers do make faulty products sometimes, that is not an issue. Or am I thinking too much? :)

[NigeG]

Surely if the watch has a stated power reserve of 48 hours it is reasonable to expect it to run for that period, maybe a couple of hours either way?

Anything less than these parameters is clearly not right.

Omega should sort that out. I’d expect them to support Goldsmiths giving you a brand new replacement.

If they don’t. Make sure you fully inspect your watch for any damage that may have occurred whilst Goldsmiths have been messing about with it.

[japester]

Is there an OB nearby you could take it to grow them to take a look?

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[xlii]

Is there an OB nearby you could take it to grow them to take a look?

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

What is an OB? :)

The watch is with Goldsmiths at the moment.

[NigeG]

What is an OB? :)

The watch is with Goldsmiths at the moment.

Omega Boutique 😉

[seikopath]

What is an OB? :)

The watch is with Goldsmiths at the moment.

Aka
OB1.
Watch jedi

[japester]

Aka
OB1.
Watch jedi

Haha love it

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[paskinner]

Consumer law does not give Goldsmiths the right to refuse a refund 'because you have worn it.' The refund is because they provided faulty goods. Full stop. It's the law. These companies have a habit of pretending consumer law doesn't exist; but it does, and it applies to them.
It's the Consumer Rights Act and gives you a statutory right to a full refund if new goods prove faulty . Shame on Goldsmiths for trying to mislead you about your rights under the law.
Google the Consumer Rights Act. Stick it to them.

[japester]

What is an OB? :)

The watch is with Goldsmiths at the moment.

They do sound like they're not being a great help. If they still refuse to be helpful and you like the watch then maybe the OB is a route you can pursue.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[Alansmithee]

The other route is this - next Saturday is the busiest Saturday of the year.

Stand outside the store in a smart suit and tie and a neat sign that says 'last week I spent thousands on a watch that doesn't not work properly and Goldsmiths refuse to replace it - ask me more'.

Don't approach anyone and don't enter the store - if you are there past 10.30am I'll be amazed.


All this 'contact the manufacturer' stuff is for the birds to me - its just a way to reduce their hassle.

[boundary546]

The test they have carried out is for accuracy, the watches problem sounds to be the automatic winding. Tell them to do the correct test, put it on a winder for a day and then leave it stationary and see how long it runs for. Of course an automatic will keep running if you manually wind it twice a day !!!

[xlii]

The test they have carried out is for accuracy, the watches problem sounds to be the automatic winding. Tell them to do the correct test, put it on a winder for a day and then leave it stationary and see how long it runs for. Of course an automatic will keep running if you manually wind it twice a day !!!

That was also what I guessed. But no matter how I explained, they just ignored it and said they had done a test and found no fault. Unbelievable!

[xlii]

The test they have carried out is for accuracy, the watches problem sounds to be the automatic winding. Tell them to do the correct test, put it on a winder for a day and then leave it stationary and see how long it runs for. Of course an automatic will keep running if you manually wind it twice a day !!!

I explained these repeatedly during the email discussion with them. They just did not seem to care what I said or how I felt, brushing away everything lightly...

[Omegamanic]

To be fair the 2500D would take a fair bit of winding to reach fully wound. You may not have fully wound it ever.

That said, their test would not rule out an issue of the auto winding. But if it was an auto wind issue, if you had fully wound the watch, you should then still get the full power reserve - especially if they have measured the accuracy, and presumably amplitude etc.

How another automatic watch has acted is irrelevant.

[Omegamanic]

To add, a quick read says that the movement rotor would require approx. 650-800 turns to fully wind, and 40 winds before wearing is regularly quoted.

Maybe they feel that there is nothing wrong with the watch, and believe the issue to be user error.

Given the information in the thread so far, we really don’t know which is the case.

If there is something up with the watch, then Im sure it will be resolved.

[xlii]

The other route is this - next Saturday is the busiest Saturday of the year.

Stand outside the store in a smart suit and tie and a neat sign that says 'last week I spent thousands on a watch that doesn't not work properly and Goldsmiths refuse to replace it - ask me more'.

Don't approach anyone and don't enter the store - if you are there past 10.30am I'll be amazed.


All this 'contact the manufacturer' stuff is for the birds to me - its just a way to reduce their hassle.

Good idea! Might be better to stand outside the busiest Goldsmiths in Oxford Street down in London. I will make sure I am there for next Saturday. :)

[coldwarkid]

I'm afraid they are taking advantage of you being naïve in this area.

They're saying that this test was adequate with an automatic watch and they are either totally incompetent or lying to you. Any watch, automatic or otherwise, will keep a power reserve if wound twice a day and there isn't anything wrong with it's hand winding mechanism. The watch you have is very likely to have a problem with it's rotor not winding the watch properly whilst in use. It could be something as simple as it just being a little stiff and not turning as it should.

I know it probably grates to do it but the option that would be the least hassle is to allow them to send it back to Omega, who have an excellent customer services reputation and I'm sure would sort it. I'm not sure how much taking to an OB would be of help. OB's are often franchises rather than direct points of contact with employees of the brand and potentially you could end up getting the run around from the same company as you're dealing with now but trading under a different name. I'm not sure if Omega are one of the brands that do this but I'd still want to deal with them direct.

It's pretty disappointing stuff really that Goldsmiths are either deliberately fobbing you off or are giving their staff inadequate training.

If you're out and about you'd be surprised how little you need to keep a watch wound. Just an hours driving through traffic, changing gears regularly, would probably be enough before you even started to move around for the day.

[hafle]

The other route is this - next Saturday is the busiest Saturday of the year.

Stand outside the store in a smart suit and tie and a neat sign that says 'last week I spent thousands on a watch that doesn't not work properly and Goldsmiths refuse to replace it - ask me more'.

Don't approach anyone and don't enter the store - if you are there past 10.30am I'll be amazed.


All this 'contact the manufacturer' stuff is for the birds to me - its just a way to reduce their hassle.

Not sure how that will help. Sounds like free positive advertising for goldsmith's to me :p

[xlii]

The other route is this - next Saturday is the busiest Saturday of the year.

Stand outside the store in a smart suit and tie and a neat sign that says 'last week I spent thousands on a watch that doesn't not work properly and Goldsmiths refuse to replace it - ask me more'.

Don't approach anyone and don't enter the store - if you are there past 10.30am I'll be amazed.


All this 'contact the manufacturer' stuff is for the birds to me - its just a way to reduce their hassle.

Agree with you on the "contact the manufacturer". Although I contacted Omega's Head of customer services, I made it clear in the email that I had no intention to get him involved in my dispute with Goldsmiths. I was just writing to seek his expert advice on the watch - can the test prove that the watch is not faulty? Do we need to manually wind an automatic Omega watch to keep it running if we wear it for 10 hours and we are reasonably active?

[Nytol]

The other route is this - next Saturday is the busiest Saturday of the year.

Stand outside the store in a smart suit and tie and a neat sign that says 'last week I spent thousands on a watch that doesn't not work properly and Goldsmiths refuse to replace it - ask me more'.

Don't approach anyone and don't enter the store - if you are there past 10.30am I'll be amazed.


All this 'contact the manufacturer' stuff is for the birds to me - its just a way to reduce their hassle.

[bwest76]

I went in one branch and asked to see a speedmaster the assistant showed me a seamaster,she didn’t know the difference.
I also asked to see some IWC she said they didn’t have any IWC speedmasters in stock at the moment,being kind I didn’t say anything.

Personally I wouldn’t hold my breath expecting anyone knowledgeable to sort it out.

[td1596]

I went in one branch and asked to see a speedmaster the assistant showed me a seamaster,she didn’t know the difference.
I also asked to see some IWC she said they didn’t have any IWC speedmasters in stock at the moment,being kind I didn’t say anything.

Personally I wouldn’t hold my breath expecting anyone knowledgeable to sort it out.

IWC speedmaster!! A new one for me!

[bwest76]

IWC speedmaster!! A new one for me!

It’s a new one for everyone.

[jameswrx]

I went in one branch and asked to see a speedmaster the assistant showed me a seamaster,she didn’t know the difference.
I also asked to see some IWC she said they didn’t have any IWC speedmasters in stock at the moment,being kind I didn’t say anything.

Personally I wouldn’t hold my breath expecting anyone knowledgeable to sort it out.

Doesn't surprise me!

I went in there to ask about the Tudor Pelagos and the lady laughed and said "no chance there's a 2 year waiting list". I had to take her outside and show her the 3 in the window! This was when some of the retailers were discounting the old ETA one. I asked if they had wind of it potentially happening (as they'd had a 2 liner for ages) she got some young lad out who told me nobody would discount them (I'd actually been at a retailer doing just that with the eta models they'd had for ages) and they certainly wouldn't be. He went on to tell me he could sell it for more than retail soon as everyone wants them.

[Valkyrie]

The people in the branch are clearly idiots, it's the automatic winding that's the problem and they're not testing that at all. Social media is your friend here, a few pointed comments on their Facebook page and a few Tweets might well work wonders.


Sent from my iPad using TZ-UK mobile app

[xlii]

The people in the branch are clearly idiots, it's the automatic winding that's the problem and they're not testing that at all. Social media is your friend here, a few pointed comments on their Facebook page and a few Tweets might well work wonders.


Sent from my iPad using TZ-UK mobile app

Oh, trust me - they wouldn't care. I was upset the other day so I post my experience on a review website. They responded under my post, saying exactly the same things: we have done a test and found no fault and the standard procedure is to send it to the manufacturer for assessment.

By the way, Goldsmiths is ranked 216 out of 218 in the category of jewellery on the website. I wish I had read the reviews there before making the purchase from them.

What can you do with people who don't care how you feel at all?

[dkpw]

By the way, Goldsmiths is ranked 216 out of 218 in the category of jewellery on the website. I wished I had read the reviews there before making the purchase from them. What can you do with people who don't care how you feel at all?

Goldsmiths - a shower of bas********s.

This is how an old TAG I used to have came BACK from a service at Goldsmiths. Never been into one of their stores since.

[jameswrx]

Goldsmiths - a shower of bas********s.

This is how an old TAG I used to have came BACK from a service at Goldsmiths. Never been into one of their stores since.

Ok I'm useless at spot the difference pics but it's even harder when there's no before pic. Help an old man out?

[dkpw]

Ok I'm useless at spot the difference pics but it's even harder when there's no before pic. Help an old man out?

The crown is well off centre, in fact it was jammed down so tight to the case and the left lug in the shot, that it was completely inoperable. I couldn't budge it, so back it went. To be fair to them the replaced the crown without delay, argument or cost but it should never have left their workshop in that fashion.

[paskinner]

Don't get sidetracked. This is not about Goldsmiths 'conditions'.....it's about your legal rights under UK consumer law. And the Consumer Rights Act makes it clear that you have an absolute right to your money back if supplied faulty goods. Your wearing of the watch makes no difference.
Concentrate on that...because that is all you need. What Goldsmiths prints on receipts is subsumed by your legal rights. Just tell them you want your money back, as guaranteed by consumer law, put it in writing. Don't allow yourself to be sidetracked, which is what Goldsmiths is relying on.
You won't need the Smalls Claims Court. The judge would soon sort Goldsmiths out. They haven't a leg to stand on. They are entirely in the wrong .

[td1596]

sounds like you've been hard done by. It is clearly faulty so a full refund is well within your consumer rights.

[Guycord]

Ok. Something without the circular technicals.

1. How much did you pay (if you don’t mind me asking)?
2. How did you pay? Cash, Visa! D3bit?
3. Guarantee on the watch? 1, 2, 4yr etc?

Basically, write a letter, stating the 1979 Sale of Goods act (read up on it) to the retailer.

Claim you are not satisfied (based on winding) and the watch is not fit for purpose or of insufficient merchantable quality! Ask for a like for like new piece, failing that, a full refund.

Ideally you paid with Visa and you will also lodge a claim with them (if you did pay with Visa, the are jointly liable).

Read-up on the SoG and the process. My guess, giving them an out of a new watch will see honours even at the minimum. Visa will be your friend as well.

Good luck

[hafle]

Ok. Something without the circular technicals.

1. How much did you pay (if you don’t mind me asking)?
2. How did you pay? Cash, Visa! D3bit?
3. Guarantee on the watch? 1, 2, 4yr etc?

Basically, write a letter, stating the 1979 Sale of Goods act (read up on it) to the retailer.

Claim you are not satisfied (based on winding) and the watch is not fit for purpose or of insufficient merchantable quality! Ask for a like for like new piece, failing that, a full refund.

Ideally you paid with Visa and you will also lodge a claim with them (if you did pay with Visa, the are jointly liable).

Read-up on the SoG and the process. My guess, giving them an out of a new watch will see honours even at the minimum. Visa will be your friend as well.

Good luck

Quoting redundant legislation might not get you very far..

[Alansmithee]

Quoting redundant legislation might not get you very far..

Althought the Tattooing of Minors Act of 1969 is still in force - so quoting that might throw them a bit.

[Guycord]

Quoting redundant legislation might not get you very far..

Sale of Goods Act 1979 is up to date with all changes known to be in force on or before 30 November 2017.

[Alansmithee]

Sale of Goods Act 1979 is up to date with all changes known to be in force on or before 30 November 2017.

Yes it is - you've cut and paste that from the start of the act - but do you actually know what that means and what changes were made to it in recent years?