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Thread: Best cleaning fluid for watch movement parts

  1. #1

    Best cleaning fluid for watch movement parts

    Hi guys

    I've just bought an ultrasonic cleaner to use for cleaning up an ETA 2824-2 project I'm working on. I have stripped the movement and now need to clean the various parts but I have no idea which cleaning fluid to buy. I've tried searching but can't find anything relevant.

    I would prefer to buy a small bottle to start with but I will buy a larger bottle if necessary.

    What do you recommend?

    Thanks in advance
    Luke

  2. #2
    Craftsman
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    Re: Best cleaning fluid for watch movement parts

    Hi Luke

    I use Horotech cleaner and rinse. The smallest quantity you can but is 1 litre.

    When i started using this I got it wrong a few times, so hopefully you might find this useful.

    The best way i found was to put about 1cm of cleaner in a small lidded jar, and the same amount of rinse in 2 other jars and label each jar - Cleaner, Rinse 1, Rinse 2. Then fill the ultrasonic cleaner with warm water as normal, with the plastic mesh basket inserted. Then put the parts you want to clean in the cleaning solution jar and then into the ultrasonic cleaner. Once that is done transfer the parts to the first rinse, I usually rest the parts on kitchen paper first to soak up most of the cleaning solution. Once that is done move them to the second and final rinse, then dry.

    For the balance jewels I use Bergeon one-dip solution in a smaller jar and only give them a quick 30 second clean and then dry.

    I have no idea if this is the correct process to use but it works for me.

    Cheers
    JIm

  3. #3
    Master
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    Re: Best cleaning fluid for watch movement parts

    I use the same process as above, but with L&R fluids. All the parts go through the clean and 2 rinse procedure, then the balance gets a few seconds in the dip solvent (to make sure that the hairspring is totally clean). I use plastic aerosol can lids, rather than glass jars.

    I think that Greiner also do fluids in small sizes.

  4. #4

    Re: Best cleaning fluid for watch movement parts

    Thanks guys.

    Anywhere you can recommend to purchase a small bottle from?

    I normally use Cousins but they seem to only have 3/4L bottles.

  5. #5
    Master
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    Re: Best cleaning fluid for watch movement parts

    Cousins do the Greiner fluid for £7.95 - mixes up to 500ml.

  6. #6

    Re: Best cleaning fluid for watch movement parts

    Excellent. Thanks.

  7. #7
    Craftsman
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    Re: Best cleaning fluid for watch movement parts

    In 30 years of teaching apprentices I never allowed them to use a cleaning machine until they had mastered hand cleaning a movement. This improved their assembly skills and ability to judge properly what clean actually meant . If you are doing less than 500 or so movements a year ( ie 2 per day) it's not really necessary to machine clean. The commercial fluids are made for pro use in a proper cleaning machine not those little ones made for cleaning small items at home. Pro machines rotate the movements and continually filter the fluids, expect to pay £ 5k+ for a decent one. Anything else you are just bathing the movement in it's own dirt and guaranteeing rinse problems. Avoid the pro rinses especially the rinse lube type. You will spend more time removing the sticky residue than it would take to hand clean. Hobby watchies should always hand clean, avoid the common error of building a vanity workshop full of expensive kit which you will never master and will only lead to dissapointing results. Expensive kit is no substitute for basic skills nor can you learn to inspect parts properly.
    Start with some old simple hand wound movements, don't start by stripping autos, or good stuff. You are bound to ruin a few. All you will need are basic tools ,screwdriver & tweezers, some sharpened toothpicks, a small soft artist brush.
    For cleaning the method is use fluid once & discard (costly pro fluids can be used many times, not needed by you). For cleaning, ordinary lighter fluid, for rinse use isopropyl alcohol. (high grade from a chemist shop). Strip the movement including removing the spring from the barrel. Wash everything in the lighter fluid using the brush , clean out all jewel holes gently with the toothpick. Rinse all parts in the ipa & lay on clean paper to dry. Take care however to rinse the balance & pallets quickly as the ipa can soften the shellac retaining the jewels. Set the clean parts under a glass until assembly. Part 2 to follow if anyone is still interested.

  8. #8

    Re: Best cleaning fluid for watch movement parts

    Quote Originally Posted by CLOCKMAN
    Part 2 to follow if anyone is still interested.
    Great stuff! I'm definately still interested. Part 2 please.
    Kind regards
    Dave

  9. #9

    Re: Best cleaning fluid for watch movement parts

    Part 2 would be welcome.

    Thanks.

  10. #10
    Craftsman
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    Re: Best cleaning fluid for watch movement parts

    +1

    or +2 actually!

  11. #11
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    Re: Best cleaning fluid for watch movement parts

    Could we have the sequel please :)

  12. #12
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    Re: Best cleaning fluid for watch movement parts

    Having cleaned all your parts and laid them out on clean paper now is the time to start learning something. Hopefully you will have managed to remove the cannon pinion and thus been able to remove the centre wheel leaving you with the bare frame. It's important to learn how to assess the condition of a watch,this can only be learned by practice. There is no point in machine cleaning a watch in poor condition. Start by placing the centre wheel in place and fit the train bridge in place, leave unoiled, check the wheel for shake in it's bearings, spin it and watch how it stops, does it spin freely and coast to a stop, does it stop suddenly, does it run flat or buckled. Do this with each wheel in turn on it's own, then fit all the train & test as above. This may seem tedious but will teach you basic inspection and as you improve you can use the quick assesment method (to follow). Now if any wheel does not run well, first check that the jewel is actually clean, using pegwood or a tooth pick ,sharpen to a thin point, clean out the hole gently,look for a dark ring of dirt on the point. If still not running well, use a 12x glass to check the pivots are straight.These are the litttle sharp points running in the jewels and are often bent by impact ,or careless work. Examine the pivots for scores on the running surface. Check that all the wheel teeth are clean and if not use you sharp stick to remove any muck . Bear in mind that some movements are in fact scrap and if one or more of the above faults you have to consider if any further work is within your scope. Ie pivot polishing & rejewelling is seldom in the hobby watchies ability. Now you should be sitting with an assembled train running nicely, un oiled, spinning to a gradual stop and ready for the next bit. To follow.

  13. #13

    Re: Best cleaning fluid for watch movement parts

    Excellent stuff! I never thought to assemble one gear at a time. Simple but not obvious.
    Definately bookmarked for the future.
    Keep it coming please.
    Kind regards
    Dave

  14. #14
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    Re: Best cleaning fluid for watch movement parts

    Very informative - thanks for the great post!

  15. #15
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    Re: Best cleaning fluid for watch movement parts

    Now old clockman here has seen many summers and as a result has slowed down a bit. Burdened as I am with horological disasters by those who should know better, my contributions are as a result somewhat erratic. Following next will be the barrel and its bridge a source of much anguish to the fledgling watchie. Meantime do some reading, I never fail to recommend the books by Donald de Carle, well written by a respected expert the specially commissioned illustrations still remain the standard for clarity. Sort out your tools, sharpen screwdrivers and clean everything . I often see enough muck in the hinge of pliers and the joint of tweezers to stop a hundred watches. Don't forget your own hands.Those annoying white specks in your newly cleaned movement are in fact your own skin scales, the tiny fibres wrapped round the escape wheel are from your very own cardie. More soon.

  16. #16
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    Re: Best cleaning fluid for watch movement parts

    The barrel & bridge. Having removed the stem then the movement, refit the stem, this will hold the winding parts in place and provide a holding as you work. At this stage a movement holder makes things easier. Take care that you don't nip the balance wheel in the holder. Before removing the bridge or any other parts, let down the spring, hold the crown and push back the click,then let the crown slip slowly round until the spring is unwound. Caution here, sometimes a sticky spring will hold a couple of coils and release suddenly later in the strip usually breaking the lever staff. Prevent this by carefully holding the centre wheel with pegwood while removing the balance & lever, let the remaining power run down slowly against your finger. This method can be used for the odd occasion when you cannot access the click. Hold the larger of the winding wheels and remove the screw, some can be left hand thread so take care ,if tight try each way gently. Now make a sketch of the bridge and remove the screws and lay them on the sketch. Not all bridge screws are the same length and must go back in the same place to avoid damage to the setting parts. Ease up the bridge & remove. Now study the winding parts where the stem goes in ,a sketch or digital pic is a great help in assembly. Those small crook shaped springs can jump away so place a finger on them and lift out by the longer bit. You will lose some. If you are not confident on stripping the winding parts leave them in place and clean them as they are. The object here is to strip clean and assemble your movement back to running order. Lift out the barrel, most will lift out easily but some require the centre wheel out. Don't force anything. Set the barrel aside and clean the other parts. Next, the mainspring,faults etc.if anyone's still following.

  17. #17
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    Re: Best cleaning fluid for watch movement parts

    I'm still following this Clockman, so please continue. I've had loads of problems with mainsprings so looking forward to the next lesson.

    Cheers
    Jim

  18. #18

    Re: Best cleaning fluid for watch movement parts

    .... and me.

    Thanks and regards
    Dave

  19. #19

    Re: Best cleaning fluid for watch movement parts

    I follow - with great interest.

    Thanks so far - and it would be great if you could keep it coming.

  20. #20

    Re: Best cleaning fluid for watch movement parts

    this is really good stuff, thanks a lot

  21. #21
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    Re: Best cleaning fluid for watch movement parts

    Now inspect the parts, First look under the large winding gear where it sits on the top of the bridge, look for rub marks here, turn the bridge over and check for rub marks on both the bridge & barrel, and under the barrel where it runs near the other plate. If badly rubbed the cause is wear on the barrel bearings. There are four bearing surfaces here,the holes in the bridge & plate and the holes in the barrel. The barrel arbour runs in all four, the plate & bridge ends of the arbour only turn when the watch is being wound,the barrel holes are the running bearings. So the arbour turns when being wound, then stays still as the barrel turns and winds down. To check these, remove the spring, carefully lever off the barrel lid using a small screwdriver in the notch, then grip the arbour with the brass nose pliers you made earlier and turn it slowly opposite to to the spring direction, pulling gently at the same time until it pops out,. Remove the spring by easing it out with tweezers against a finger to stop it flying out suddenly. Refit the arbour & lid & snap shut. Fit the barrel back in place & refit the bridge. Now check for end shake (up & down) then side to side. Judging wear takes practice ,but if any surfaces are contacting this will stop the watch and the barrel is most likley worn out. Rebushing barrels is outwith your scope at present so a new one will be needed. You basically have a scrap watch if not available. However as a rule most are ok. Now check the spring. Lay it flat both ways and observe if it lies flat or if the centre forms a cone. If so it's scrap.The cone is caused by the spring being distorted by being wound in by hand rather than with a winder tool . This cone shape presses on the barrel faces and saps power from the movement. A new spring is required. Selecting & fitting the correct spring next. Meantime practice fitting & removing the stem and study the action of the setting parts.

  22. #22
    Craftsman
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    Re: Best cleaning fluid for watch movement parts

    Thanks for the next instalment, very informative.

    Can I ask a few questions about lubricating the barrell wall...what do you use, how much and where, and how do you know if you get it wrong ? By that I mean what would you expect to happen if you put too much or too little grease on the wall.

    Cheers
    Jim

  23. #23

    Re: Best cleaning fluid for watch movement parts

    A question from me also.
    If I need to order a replacement mainspring, how do I specify it? What are the essential measurements etc? Is there some generic "coding" which will indicate manual winding or automatic?
    Kind regards
    Dave

  24. #24
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    Re: Best cleaning fluid for watch movement parts

    Hi DaveS

    If you have a look on the Cousins website and search for the specific watch movement you have then it will show you which one to order.

    Cheers
    JIm

  25. #25
    Master
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    Re: Best cleaning fluid for watch movement parts

    Mainsprings are graded by height (width of the spring), length (or barrel diameter) and strength (thickness), all measured in mm. You also need to choose the correct end fitting.
    Autos use a slipping bridle at end of the spring, rather than hooking over a projection on the inside of the barrel wall.

    As Jim said, for popular movements, it's easier to order by calibre.

  26. #26

    Re: Best cleaning fluid for watch movement parts

    Quote Originally Posted by JimH
    Hi DaveS

    If you have a look on the Cousins website and search for the specific watch movement you have then it will show you which one to order.

    Cheers
    JIm
    Quote Originally Posted by clockworks
    Mainsprings are graded by height (width of the spring), length (or barrel diameter) and strength (thickness), all measured in mm. You also need to choose the correct end fitting.
    Autos use a slipping bridle at end of the spring, rather than hooking over a projection on the inside of the barrel wall.

    As Jim said, for popular movements, it's easier to order by calibre.
    Thanks for your replies guys. I don't need one specifically, right now. I'm just stocking up on knowledge for the future.
    Kind regards
    Dave

  27. #27
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    Re: Best cleaning fluid for watch movement parts

    Very helpful thread, looking forward to the next post! :bom:

  28. #28

    Re: Best cleaning fluid for watch movement parts

    Still following - with great interest.


    Havi

  29. #29
    Journeyman
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    Re: Best cleaning fluid for watch movement parts

    I was looking for some ultrasonic cleaners, good thing I stumbled upon,this thread. Following also!

  30. #30
    Grand Master
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    Re: Best cleaning fluid for watch movement parts

    not that i'd ever dare attempt any of this, but it makes for fascinating reading and a reminder of just how intricate the work of a good watch repairer is, amazing really for the prices charged when you think about it! my thanks go to clockman for posting and i await the next segment with interest!
    i'd also like to post clockman a question, what would he consider the most hardy and robust auto movement out there?
    ktmog6uk
    marchingontogether!



  31. #31

    Re: Best cleaning fluid for watch movement parts

    What a jewel of a thread if you'll excuse the pun. Thank you CLOCKMAN for some very useful knowledge.

  32. #32

    Re: Best cleaning fluid for watch movement parts

    Quote Originally Posted by fornowagain
    What a jewel of a thread if you'll excuse the pun. Thank you CLOCKMAN for some very useful knowledge.
    +1

    an pics of a barre spring winder would be nice ;)

  33. #33
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    mainspring winder.

    is a winder always necessary .they seem expensive for the amount of times they will be used by hobbyists?

  34. #34
    Master seffrican's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the bolt View Post
    is a winder always necessary .they seem expensive for the amount of times they will be used by hobbyists?
    Welcome. Not everyone starts with a 5-year+ necropost

  35. #35
    Master .olli.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the bolt View Post
    is a winder always necessary .they seem expensive for the amount of times they will be used by hobbyists?
    Well thank you we need someone to keep M&W alive :)

  36. #36
    Grand Master
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    I buy cleaning solutions in 1 gallon containers at around £35 each.

    if you fancy a ride to Normanton I can let you have some small quantities . Might even manage a tutorial if you're lucky

    Ultrasonic bath is your best friend........ I buy cheap ones and replace them when they burn out.

    PM me if you want more advice.

    Paul

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by the bolt View Post
    is a winder always necessary .they seem expensive for the amount of times they will be used by hobbyists?
    Cheaper to buy a new mainspring.

  38. #38
    Grand Master
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    Spring winders can often be found second - hand on ebay. I wouldn't want to be without mine, even though they're old and worn they still do the job.

    Cousins website is very good for mainsprings. If the movement is listed a replacement spring will be quoted (usually).

    If no spring can be found, the old one will have to be measured carefully and the closest replacement used. An accurate digital caliper or micrometer will be needed (a must-have if you're serious) to measure the thickness and width. On an old watch, using a spring that's very slightly thicker can help restore amplitude, but this should be a last resort. The power from a spring is proportional to the cube of the thickness; as an example going from 0.100 to 0.105 will give an increase of 15%. Searching on Cousins site will bring up a list of springs available for a given thickness and it's usually possible to find something suitable.

    Clockmans previous description of spring barrel problems is excellent. Thankfully it's rare to find such extensive wear ....... or maybe I've been lucky. Wear on the inside of the barrel walls is more common and it can cause problems owing to the spring slipping prematurely (automatics) , thus leading to loss of amplitude and power reserve . Ideally, a new mainspring and barrel should be fitted; that's fine if the parts are available or if the barrel isn't prohibitively expensive. If not the old barrel has to be reused. For a worn brass barrel on an old watch I use braking grease applied sparingly; for an aluminium barrel in good condition I use a molybdenum disulphide grease but this also has to be used sparingly.

    I endorse Clockmans recommendation for the Donald de Carle books. They're a bit dated but the principles are unchanged.

    For anyone who's determined to get into watch fixing I strongly advise a training course at the BHI. The 5 day residential courses are excellent. Treat it as a holiday and be prepared to spend accordingly, it's not cheap but it's the best way to learn the basics.

    Paul
    Last edited by walkerwek1958; 9th November 2016 at 11:07.

  39. #39
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    thanks for that. B.

  40. #40
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    winder

    Quote Originally Posted by .olli. View Post
    Well thank you we need someone to keep M&W alive :)
    Que?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by seffrican View Post
    Welcome. Not everyone starts with a 5-year+ necropost
    Que?

  41. #41
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    re-mainspring winder

    took on board everything said,opened it up.needs cleaning.will do it by hand!

  42. #42
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    Hi,
    just wanted to say THANK YOU to CLOCKMAN. He completely changed my point of view and inspired me.
    Kind regards
    Michal

  43. #43
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    Thankyou Clockman!

    I had to log on just to say a thankyou to Clockman for his fantastic advice. I know it's from 2011 but it's still totally relevant and helped me immensely. (Especially his tip to put the gears in, one by one, to check them!) I learnt a lot from him and wanted to say thankyou for sharing your hard earned knowledge. 

  44. #44
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    Endorse Gratitude to CLOCKMAN

    I too found CLOCKMAN's posts to this thread fascinating to read, the wisdom of years of professional timepiece work. At this point I'm not even a "hobby watchie" but the janitor in the hallway listening at the classroom door. Have to start somewhere. I imagine I'll return to this thread regularly as I learn to bring to bear the advice offered. Thank you CLOCKMAN.

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