Another what bicycle

[Huertecilla]

Totally impressed with my Giant Defy for tarmac and the odd stretch of broken up tarmac or gravel, also looking for something for the rougher stuff.
The question is not which model but whether front suspension or not and single/multiple front plates.

I am not spoiled with suspension, will not be trying to break any records, like precise steering and loath weight as much as getting the shifting wrong.

When I started pathriding in the eighties, mtb was all unsprung and I went down the south side of the Sierra Nevada with such a V-braked bike. I will now not be going nearly as fast so am wondering if front suspension is a must worth the weight penalty and loss of precision.
The SRAM single sets look very user friendly to me.

My son has a front spung bike and yes that is ever so comfortable but that reduces the feel of the surface just as much.
Currently ok with using my 1900s replica pathracer to accompany my son on that one and his mom on het cyclocross bike. No way I could go down the Sierras with it though and anything looking like a proper climb sees me walking.

So; what is the verdict on front suspension versus modern carbon forks and no front derailer?

[Captain Morgan]

Not what you were asking but,

I have both, front suspension and a full suspension bikes, the front is used mainly in the wet and muddy British winter.
The full is a much more comfortable machines it’s more fun descending, surprisingly being heavier it’s quicker climbing as the rear shock helps with traction.

So I would advise trying a couple locally and see but I would be surprised if a short travel full suspension bike (100-120mm) was not more fun.

Tyre pressure is also key so see if they can demo them tubeless and dependent on your weight you’d look at mid 20's to early 30's in psi.

For gears then most of the 11x1 or 12x1 options are good enough but will depend on how much climbing you do and your attitude to ratio jumps

[Huertecilla]

Just went outfor a spin over dirt roads on the pathracer which has 37mm. Schwalbe tourers. I can imagine that with 50mm. or more tubeless the low pressure alone amounts to suspension ;-)

Because of the odd broken bits, in the road bike I need to ride max. pressure to avoid pinch flats. Man thát blurs your eyesight!

Yes, will try some (more). The bike shop close by also has quite a gamma for hire.
Already tried a full suspension bike and though comfortable, I did not like the spongy power transfer. Also found the weight quite noticeable. Definitely hard tail for me.

If budget was not an issue I´d probably go for a carbon frame, light front suspension, SRAM Eagle 12 bike but it is, so compromises will have to be made. The ham question is with what.

[MrSmith]

you have hills there (proper ones) so if you dont go for a double then you will need one of those mega-range rear cassettes and a mech that can take it, maybe familiarise yourself with gear inches and see what a traditional front inner ring and normal cassette gives you compared to a bigger range cassette and single.
sounds like 650b or 29' if you are a 6 footer+ hardtail would do the job with tubeless tyres. i’m still stuck in 26in era so now its all boost and plus with numerous widths and axels so a bit of a minefield.

edit: if you didn’t like the squish of a full suss then maybe look at the trance from Giant, that platform pedals really well if the shock has a bit of platform damping, i still run an old 26in trance x and coming from a hardtail i loved how it didn’t wallow and actually offered more mechanical grip.

[Huertecilla]

Yes, seriously steep bits here. Long too.
Being 1.85 yes, 700 wheels it is. That is a given.

Not doing gear inches but cms. ;-) and familiar with it. Not bothered by the gaps but am by the lowest ratios. The 11 speed does not quite cut it and the 12 speed too dear as that automatically moves me up the model range, so 2 plates seems the better compromise.

Will look at the Giants. Actually, will ride one!
Loath the rear squisiness but coming from enduro bikes am not blind to the potential advantages of rear suspension.
A bit of a catch 22 with full suspension is the weight. The ones I can afford, even last years discounted offering, just about force me into 2 or 3 front plates and that agaín adds weight. Additional traction it may give but then a way lighter bike needs less.

p.s. the lowest ratios are a bit of a dunno really as I don´t mind getting off and walk faster/easier with the bike on my shoulder. Needs to be a seriously light bike though for that ánd have a suitable top tube.

[doctorj]

Cannondale Slate? Or something like that instead?

[Huertecilla]

Cannondale Slate? Or something like that instead?

Love the mono fork so yes something like it with way lower gearing, 29 wheels and at say a third of the price.

[Captain Morgan]

The key (imho) is the frame forks and shock as these are the components that will (hopefully) last the bikes lifetime, gearsets brakes etc will be replaced though the bikes lifetime and should to some degree be considered consumables.
Money spent on a good frame, fork and shock and s/h consumable parts might be a way to get a good light bike for less if you are happy to build one.

If not the giant suggested is highly thought of so would be worth a try I believe most new shocks have either a lockout or anti bob settings for climbing these days.

If you can then also demo the trek stache it’s a hard tail but with wider 29+ wheels and tyres could be fun in your environment

[Huertecilla]

The key (imho) is the frame forks and shock as these are the components that will (hopefully) last the bikes lifetime, gearsets brakes etc will be replaced though the bikes lifetime and should to some degree be considered consumables.
Money spent on a good frame, fork and shock and s/h consumable parts might be a way to get a good light bike for less if you are happy to build one.

Although I agree with you and the logic, the own build always adds up more costly because you vannot nuy te components as sharply as the manufacturer, even with their margin factored in.
I toatlly agree with buying the best frame and later upgrading.
There are very few higher end frames with entry level components though; the manufacturers are quite clever enough to avoid that. The TCR Advanced with Tiagra is an exception and a road bike.

I believe most new shocks have either a lockout or anti bob settings for climbing these days.

So do forks, those too can be locked out for a reason, which again raises the base question. Why have one and is a carbon fork on wide soft wubbah on 700 hoops not enough ´suspension´?!

If you can then also demo the trek stache it’s a hard tail but with wider 29+ wheels and tyres could be fun in your environment

Good suggestion and the sort of bike is right on the head I think.

[Huertecilla]

Right, made a hire plan for some different bikes. First one today.

Took my son´s bike out for a spin yesterday and going steeply down, skipping on front suspension did not look an attractive prospect. Loathed the bobbing going up and flat though. The lock option is just not practical in the continuously varied terrain. The fork is set up for 25 kilos less though.

The scheme would theoretically take me to X-mas. The various discount offerings of yesteryear models may cut it short though: Saw a ´17 Giant XTC Advanced 2 offered for a ludicrously low price per example. Almost nudging the upper limit of the budget. Made me seriously waver. Good thing it is just above budget :-)

For the time being diverted my attention by making a wall chart with the different tire pressures for the different bikes in the household; 18 different values is too much to remember.

[MrSmith]

Took my son´s bike out for a spin yesterday and going steeply down, skipping on front suspension did not look an attractive prospect. Loathed the bobbing going up and flat though. The lock option is just not practical in the continuously varied terrain. The fork is set up for 25 kilos less though.

How can you evaluate a suspension bike when it's badly set up and not for your weight?
25kg is a huge difference!

[Captain Morgan]

Also if it’s a poor fork to start with it’s worse than no suspension, what bike / fork was it?

[Huertecilla]

Also if it’s a poor fork to start with it’s worse than no suspension,

That is the ham question anyway ;-)

Next is a 2017 XTC 1 that I can try. That will spoil me for sure; carbon rims and single plate with seriously low ratio. Way above budget even used but it will tell me what a good fork will do. Has the lock out on a thumb lever which should be a doddle to use.

[Captain Morgan]

I've a 2013 giant xtc carbon 29’er with arch ex rims on hope hubs and shimano 11x1 as my winter bike, suspect you’ll like it, no manual lockout though. Lots of upgrades over the years.
What did you try today?

[Huertecilla]

I've a 2013 giant xtc carbon 29’er with arch ex rims on hope hubs and shimano 11x1 as my winter bike, suspect you’ll like it,

Hmmm. Don´t like the sound of that ;-)

The 2017 is his own competition bike. He has it for sale as he will go to a fully sprung 2018 and is keen for me to try it.

What did you mod on yours? will teach me a lot probably.

What did you try today?

A BTWIN Rockrider with differents stickers as the shop´s own so no type, but the shop guy said it was in the just under 800 Euros price range.

Surprisingly well specced for that money with suspension adjustments galore and the Shimano Deore was quite ok, but not a tight product, The result is like driving a van. The bike will weighed maybe 16 kilos but felt like 20! I´d rather have a well made all rigid.*
Not a good test of full suspension.
It does bring home that my budget simply does not stretch to a good enough fully sprung bike. No sense in trying more full bikes I can afford.
So maybe it was a good test in thát respect.
I am ok with buying a well maintained used bike but am staying away from rear suspension ones.

* It was ideal weather so cycled there and back on the Defy and boy did the trip back bring the joys of a tight lightweight home! I did the two twisty and quite steep descends faster and with more appreciation than before.
My son took a fun photo on a staight bit. He had left me panting uphill for that :-) I´d love to share but it is still underway in cyberspace.

** here it is

[Huertecilla]

Rode a several year old alloy framed Scott with upgrade Rox fork and.... 27,5 carbon rims. What a shock! Those wheels were almost disconcertingly quick.
Since most riding here is twisty bits, that may be the better way.
I will admit to having needed the 26er front plate so maybe, 2 x 11 is more versatile for me. I ám grandpa age after all.

Still trying the 2017 XTC later in the week though.

Meanwhile seen some unbelievable discounts on top notch 2016 models. The disfference with ´17 and ´18 are mainly marketing and ... 1000- 1500 Euros!!

[adrianw]

Nip down to Bike station Marbella and take a look at the range of Orbea cross country bikes,

http://bikemarbella.com

[Huertecilla]

Thanks, will do!

Saturday was in Malaga so dropped in at Trek near Maria Zambrana and a mainly Scott (had Merida too) dealer on the Guadalhorce industrial estate. Even the Black Friday deals were at best undiscounted 2017 price level.
Being Dutch I know of a Giant factory outlet for old model years as far back as 2014. The cheapest carbon frame XTC comes in at 899 Euros. The cheapest carbon frame/wheels XTC is 1799,-. This latter means apart from higher spec group set quite a bit better fork and carbon wheels for 900 Euros which is a bargain. But still 900 Euros.

Anyway, the 27.5 composites REALY shocked me; the lightness was awesome but by Jove are they also brutally stiff as in hard and nervous. Like riding 100 psi front instead of 75 on the road bike. A bit over the top for me maybe but then I also always am annoyed no end by spokes creaking.... arrgggh (luxury) choices!!!!

No bike testing till Friday, possibly Saturday.
Hope the forecasted rain actually falls. We NEED water. But when it dries, out with the Defy!!

[MrSmith]

Wow somebody has bought one of those super Mario skinsuits!
Not only that they actually wear it!!

[Huertecilla]

Wow somebody has bought one of those super Mario skinsuits!
Not only that they actually wear it!!

I wear it. Nooooo problem.
Wonderful responses too.
Very striking that blokes don´t like it, don´t see the humor, are jealous, whatever, but that the women lóve it. Had not expected that at all.

Good quality suit too btw. sp great vfm.

Lastly, as it is such a striking tribute to a great rider, it motivates me to shovel a bit of extra coal on the fire when that goes lowish. Had not expected that either but it really is an extra motivator.

Speaking of clothing; don´t wear the tight stuff off road. I have shorts designed for mtb, some wider moto-x stuff and triple oversized docker pants. The loose fit gives me just taht bit protection thus confidence. Ditto knee pads.
Anyway; I lóve the muscle suit and wear it!!

[MrSmith]

im sure the man himself would approve.

[Huertecilla]

oh come on, you can do better than thát!!

[Meesterbond]

Even though I've just bought a mountain bike with carbon wheels, I'm not really convinced they're worth the extra. The weight saving is small (and largely unnecessary) and the main reason is for stiffness... which is not necessarily a good thing if you're not racing...

It's also got a 1x11 setup (9 to 44 tooth cassette with a small front ring) and I can't say I've missed the front mech at all.. The simplicity of it is great, the jumps in ratio are big - particularly when you get to the dinner plate end of the cassette - but MTB isn't like road riding and I don't need to control my cadence in the same way.

[Huertecilla]

Even though I've just bought a mountain bike with carbon wheels, I'm not really convinced they're worth the extra. The weight saving is small (and largely unnecessary) and the main reason is for stiffness... which is not necessarily a good thing if you're not racing...

It's also got a 1x11 setup (9 to 44 tooth cassette with a small front ring) and I can't say I've missed the front mech at all.. The simplicity of it is great, the jumps in ratio are big - particularly when you get to the dinner plate end of the cassette - but MTB isn't like road riding and I don't need to control my cadence in the same way.

Thank you for the real world feedback.

My thought exactly about the rims. Even more so on 29 and in 27.5+ the weight saving becomes inconsequencial.
Still impressive in the ´traditional´ narower 27.5 though. And a bit scary so stiff.
A big argument seems to be that the stiffer rim makes life way easier for the spokes.
I am convinced they are nót worth the extra on a latest model year bike. On a yesteryear´s one... mwah, no lo se. Looking at the 2016 bike, also accounting for the group set, carbon seat post and fork, the wheels are 300 Euros extra. Leaves the question whether I can adapt to the stiffness.

I lóve the simplicity of 1 x and would not miss the front derailer either BUT... living in proper mountainous country, the bigger steps are an issue worth considering. I am after all grandpa age.

[Huertecilla]

Rather funny;

switchback
ˈswɪtʃbak
noun

1.
BRITISH
a road, path, or railway with alternate sharp ascents and descents.

2.
NORTH AMERICAN
a 180° bend in a road or path, especially one leading up the side of a mountain.

3.
SPANISH
a path steep up and down with 180 degree turns to reduce the incline; i.e. switchissimo

[adrianw]

Thanks, will do!

My nephew is Jody Burnett, they sponsor him, if you say Jody's uncle sent you, you will get a discount.

[Huertecilla]

With the Giant EU base home in the Netherlands and Giant equiped teams operating from there, quite a Giant lot is on offer there:

[Captain Morgan]

I seem to recall the giant carbon rims having a bit of a reputation for failing, might be worth checking as they aren’t cheep to replace if they fail.

[Cookie]

Just went outfor a spin over dirt roads on the pathracer which has 37mm. Schwalbe tourers. I can imagine that with 50mm. or more tubeless the low pressure alone amounts to suspension ;-)

Because of the odd broken bits, in the road bike I need to ride max. pressure to avoid pinch flats. Man thát blurs your eyesight!

Yes, will try some (more). The bike shop close by also has quite a gamma for hire.
Already tried a full suspension bike and though comfortable, I did not like the spongy power transfer. Also found the weight quite noticeable. Definitely hard tail for me.

If budget was not an issue I´d probably go for a carbon frame, light front suspension, SRAM Eagle 12 bike but it is, so compromises will have to be made. The ham question is with what.

Slight deviation on the main theme of the thread here, but why not get tubeless on the Defy - 28mm Sectors or schwalbe Pro ones can run nice and soft with no pinch flats. Perfect for rough roads and good rolling speed too

[Holy Moses]

Picked up a.new Scott.oad.bike.in the summer with a nice pair of carbon Zipp wheels. First thing I did was ditch the standard tyres and go timeless with 28mm Schwalbe Pro Ones.
Covered a good few hundred miles now.and they are simply brilliant. Run the front arou d 70psi and the rear 80psi and I am far from light at around 100kg.

[Huertecilla]

Slight deviation on the main theme of the thread here, but why not get tubeless on the Defy - 28mm Sectors or schwalbe Pro ones can run nice and soft with no pinch flats. Perfect for rough roads and good rolling speed too

I am running 28 mm Gatorskins with snot filled rear tube. When those wear out I will go tubeless with a bit more grip. Though that will no doubt improve things a bit, I will still stick to the optimum tire pressure. Lowering is indeed more comfortable but reduces grip and I REALLY loath the ´slip´ of the front. I tend to push the front and want it to go where I point it.

[MrSmith]

Lowering is indeed more comfortable but reduces grip

if its really low and the tyres squirm then yes but it’s carcass deformation that decreases rolling resistance and increases grip. max psi only means speed on a billiard table smooth surface like a velodrome. the days of 22c at 140psi thinking that means fast are long gone.
get down on your knees and look at supposedly smooth tarmac and its very rough, an over inflated tyre literally jumps from bump to bump.

[Huertecilla]

if its really low and the tyres squirm then yes but it’s carcass deformation that decreases rolling resistance and increases grip. max psi only means speed on a billiard table smooth surface like a velodrome. the days of 22c at 140psi thinking that means fast are long gone.
get down on your knees and look at supposedly smooth tarmac and its very rough, an over inflated tyre literally jumps from bump to bump.

Who mentioned 22c at 140 psi?
I am using 28c for the larger contact patch and lower optimum pressure because of the larger air chamber.

Who mentioned óverinflated?
I mentioned the OPTIMUM instead of slightly underinflated for comfort.

Concerning ´rough´ surfaces, slightly lower pressure allows for deformation ´around´ the roughness so the rubber ´hooks up´ on the roughness. Development of high hysteresis rubbers makes increased use of that.

Back to the pressure; the optimium is the ... optimum between rolling resistance, traction and drift angle.
HOWEVER, that optimum is a measured value and may very well not be the optimum for YOU. Take comfort. Less pressure increases comfort and if you do not need the max traction or least rolling resistance, then softer is more optimal for you. Take your pick.

Yes and, perhaps due to my style of pushing/loading the front, I do notice the slight increase in the angle of drift. This is a large reason why the stiff carbon rims disconcert me; I suddenly feel all of the tire drift!

Back to offroad. That is a world of difference with the technical optimum being way different from the rider´s. While the technical optimum is nearer the max pressure, most serious offroaders I know prefer pressures lower than the minimum specced by the tire manufacturer. Again I like to feel where my front wheel is going so run it within spec. Oh and also a bit more agressive profile. That is less fast rolling but offroad I am not thát fast anyway.

[higham5]

I ride a Giant anthem XT full suspension, whilst its a full susser, the front travel is only 80 mm. Giant produced this as a fast X country bike with modest down hill performance. It climbs really well due to some clever geometry of the rear suss. I bought it when it was a last years model. From memory it was £900 full list was £1350.

[Huertecilla]

I ride a Giant anthem XT full suspension, whilst its a full susser, the front travel is only 80 mm. Giant produced this as a fast X country bike with modest down hill performance. It climbs really well due to some clever geometry of the rear suss. I bought it when it was a last years model. From memory it was £900 full list was £1350.

Giant got the pedalling pogo thing solved with the clever geometry through contracting Pascal Tribotte some two decades ago already. He figured out a geometry in which the vertical force on the pedal (which pushes the bottom bracket down) is negated by the horizontal pull on the chain (which creates a rotating force on the swingarm). It indeed really works.

The last year´s model strategy payed off nicely.
I have no issue going back the model history further still. Post hydraulic disc brakes frames/forks have developed little. Some innovations may even not be all good. Take internal cabling; that is heavier and definitely not easier to maintain. Also holes in the frame give access to dirt and moisture which on an offroad bike wíll enter.

[Huertecilla]

Had not planned to turn a wheel till..., well today, Friday but much later, say 10.00 and go try the 2017 TCX 1.

Now over here the enthusiasm of aficionados knows no bounderies so when the mtbiking friend of the family of the sister of my Malagueña love heard about my quest there was noooo escaping: A friend of a mate of his mtb group has a Trek Stache 5 and... hoúrs later I was on it on a pitch dark dirt road above Malaga.

Man what a weird bike!
Despite noticeably reluctant to change direction wheels, surprisingly the bike was agile.
Same story the, well, suspension. Despite the lack of it the überly large air chambers sucked up a lot and the again überly large wheels rolled over anything.
Definitely not real light and the gearing needs be lower for my intended use which would be easily enough solved.

VeryVERY cool indeed though. Technically far from the dream bike but so much fun. I would actually buy one for 50% off list price and fit a dropper post. It most definitely is on my short list and I will watching second hand ads for one.

[Meesterbond]

I don't agree that frames etc haven't changed much in recent years... I think, along with the newer wheel sizes geometry is probably the biggest change there's been in ages.

Having come back to mountain biking this year after a few years off, not only do you now have 3 or 4 new wheel sizes (although I'm not convinced by plus sizes at the moment) but in order to keep the bigger wheels feeling agile and 'playful' the frames are much longer and a fair bit lower than they were only 3 or 4 years ago... I'm running a 35mm stem instead of the 80/90mm I used to use and the whole bike feels way more competent that my old 26" Yeti. I'm hitting trails harder and faster than I ever did, taking bigger drops and actually getting my wheels off the floor!

[Captain Morgan]

Is that when you lift the bike onto the car carrier

[Holy Moses]

Yep. That extra length in the top tube gives stability in the rough and air. Has no negative that I can find with regards to tight sections when combined with with a very short stem other than the front wheel needing a little more guidance to keep straight on steep ups.
This calmer handling buys you loads more time to make corrections when either tyre gives up grip.
I'm of average height but run a frame of over 500mm reach which most manufacturers still Don't get anywhere near. Even if they make an XXL

Geometry is far and away the most important thing when buying a mtb.
Then suspension, tyres and their pressures, setup etc. All other components are so competent this days they make little difference.
The most expensive group set may cost 5x more but will just save you a few grams and add a bit of bling.

[Huertecilla]

I don't agree that frames etc haven't changed much in recent years... I think, along with the newer wheel sizes geometry is probably the biggest change there's been in ages.

Having come back to mountain biking this year after a few years off, not only do you now have 3 or 4 new wheel sizes (although I'm not convinced by plus sizes at the moment) but in order to keep the bigger wheels feeling agile and 'playful' the frames are much longer and a fair bit lower than they were only 3 or 4 years ago... I'm running a 35mm stem instead of the 80/90mm I used to use and the whole bike feels way more competent that my old 26" Yeti. I'm hitting trails harder and faster than I ever did, taking bigger drops and actually getting my wheels off the floor!

Ok, maybe we are talking different prespectives. You being in the UK means the past is like the future so I can imagine persective being shortened.... THIS IS A JOKE ;-)

No seriously, there is nothing much new since hydraulic disc brakes.
Wheel sizes have been varied since Archibald Sharp and geometry is little less than goofing around under the lead of marketing. Tony Foale´s book about motorcycle dynamics and frame designs makes that strikingly clear; Mike Burrows was

Same thing suspension units. Nothing new. Full air has been around for decades. As have been cantilever forks, as has upside down etc.

The first Giant XTC was fully sprung with anti-pogo geometry, had disc brakes and 2.1" wide rubber on 16 inchers. A carbon framed one soon followed. We are talking turn of the century here.

Fat Tires... need I say more? That is pure fashion.
The 27+ and 29+ are little less than hopping on the band wagon of that with advantages for niche use.
With 26 (or smaller even!), 27.5 and 29 there too are technical advantages as well as advantages and what suits ´best´ depends on the specific use.

On the road side there now is the gravel bike crave. Basically a marketing created ´type´ of bike which hardly differs from the ciclocrosser. These are functionally just as good when in steel, alu or carbon. Ditto alu or carbon wheels.

Even carbon is not all thát much of a difference because the UIC stipulated the triple diamond shape. Basically indexed shifters and hydraulic dic brakes are thé big changes in cycling since the chain and air filled tire were invented. The rest all existed at the prévious turn of the century.

Getting back to the topic; yes I would be perfectly happy to refurbish my eighties Koga Myata Ridge Runner mtb with modern 2x and rigid carbon fork if it were not too clapped out and just about impossible to be converted to disc brakes.

[adrianw]

Go take a look at one of these

[yumma]

Just like Mazda MX5 is the correct answer to every car question, a Rayleigh Chopper is all the bike you'll ever need

[Huertecilla]

you now have 3 or 4 new wheel sizes (although I'm not convinced by plus sizes at the moment)

26
26 FAT
27.5
27.5+
29
29+

makes 6.

Just back from a spin on the 2017 XTC 1.
Not enough to comment on the 29 wheels.
The bloke had the bike on 9 kilos with pedals and thát was a joy if a bit nervous one.
Despite this featherweight the 1x did not suit me because he runs a way larger front plate than I would. Changed gear like a dream though.
Impressively simple, minimalistic flat out bike. The first I love, the latter is maybe outside of my comfort zone. I can imagine that 27+ wheels will transform the bike.

p.s. about geometry. That is indeed paramount BUT is a compounded of several variables that have their own yet often also counteracting/negating effects. Again, the Foale/Willoughby book offers great insight.
A longer reach is mentioned and longer chain stays also gives longer wheelbase, both slowing down things.
The former forces the rider in a more stretched position, the latter has no effect on that whereas both put more load on the front wheel. The rider position also affects the way the bike behaves at a turning angle and the longer chain stays not.

Me, I prefer a shorter reach than my length suggests. This too is not straighforward and diffrent on most bikes.

[MrSmith]

Didn't Giant 'borrow' the DW-link from Dave Wegele for the trance/anthem platform?
I guess you don't bother with legal challenges when you are one of the biggest manufacturers out there!?

Legal or not I really like it coming from a hardtail (with some kind of platform damping)

[Huertecilla]

Didn't Giant 'borrow' the DW-link from Dave Wegele for the trance/anthem platform?
I guess you don't bother with legal challenges when you are one of the biggest manufacturers out there!?

Dave Weagle.
I am not aware about a controverse about Giant using a símilar ´Maestro´solution.
Perhaps copied with just enough of a change?
The DW-link itself too is a development with just enough of a key difference.

About the big ones; The BMW motorcycle paralever was copied from a Brit Laverda frame builder. Point was that he did not patent it and BMW did. They allowed him to continue building his special frames.

Legal or not I really like it coming from a hardtail (with some kind of platform damping)

And the tread question was about frónt suspension ;-)
To hardtail or to full rigid; that is the question.

Full suspension is not in the picture.
The reason is very simple; energy management. Not even counting the extra weight, rear suspension is less efficient. I.e. costs you more energy to propel the bike and yourself.

Over here in Spain the Madrid - Lisboa non-stop ride is a yard stick for general use all round bikes. The route has it all but not to the ultimate extremes of uses and energy efficiency is a húge criterium. It is hardtail territory. You can simply calculate why.
This does not apply to a lockable front suspension. Just the weight penalty remains and that is more than negated by the improved efficiency by reduced bump resistance.

[Huertecilla]

Meanwhile been riding in sticky stuff here. Sure helped unfold the plot a bit more.
No front supension is not on but the quality of the front fork is.

Weight is rather important. Some of the uphill here is very steep for rather long.

Size does count. Sometimes counts down. The lime mud is übersticky and the larger/wider may make a slighty less deep print BUT it sure picks up a ton of mud which weighs a ... ton.

I sure found that I need low gearing as low as like 18 inches to speak the local lingo ;-)
It was CONFIRMED in capital letters that I suck at gear changing; the simpler the better.
Oh and I better ride with flat pedals and grippy shoes.

[Toddy]

This is my current steed, 160mm Nukeproof Mega AM (with a few choice mods).

If you're wanting to go flats with grippy shoes I'm currently running Superstar Nano pedals with 5ten freerider shoes.....very grippy!

[grey]

Just like Mazda MX5 is the correct answer to every car question, a Rayleigh Chopper is all the bike you'll ever need

Remind me, did The Rayleigh Chopper appear at Basildon Magistrates Court for gross indecency on the sixth form girls' tennis courts, or was it at Chelmsford Crown Court for dismembering a nun?

I see where you are going though, as I was once caught by two lads on Choppers at the turn of an evening ten time trial near Oxford back in the 1980s. Mind you they were cheating by drafting, the little sods.

[learningtofly]

Can't answer your question, but have you considered one of these bad boys?

[Carlton-Browne]

Remind me, did The Rayleigh Chopper appear at Basildon Magistrates Court for gross indecency on the sixth form girls' tennis courts, or was it at Chelmsford Crown Court for dismembering a nun?

I see where you are going though, as I was once caught by two lads on Choppers at the turn of an evening ten time trial near Oxford back in the 1980s. Mind you they were cheating by drafting, the little sods.