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Thread: Bitcoin

  1. #2701
    I see JP Morgan are about to launch a fund so clients can buy into Bitcoin, this is after their CEO described Bitcoin in 2017 as a scam, a bubble and would fire anyone caught trading it.

    Quite the turnaround.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ealthy-clients
    Last edited by Vanguard; 27th April 2021 at 14:48.

  2. #2702
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanguard View Post
    I see JP Morgan are about to launch a fund so clients can buy into Bitcoin, this is after their CEO described Bitcoin in 2017 as a scam, a bubble and would fire anyone caught trading it.

    Quite the turnaround.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ealthy-clients
    “If the demand is there they will service the demand” is the usual response.

    But in my view it’s positive news and makes those on the fence a little more confident.

  3. #2703
    Quote Originally Posted by demonloop View Post
    “If the demand is there they will service the demand” is the usual response.

    But in my view it’s positive news and makes those on the fence a little more confident.
    Yes I agree, the more mainstream the Crypto industry goes the better, I'm certainly behind decentralised finance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanguard View Post
    Yes I agree, the more mainstream the Crypto industry goes the better, I'm certainly behind decentralised finance.
    Why is decentralised finance a good thing?

    Who will guarantee deposits in a decentralised model?

  5. #2705
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montello View Post
    Why is decentralised finance a good thing?

    Who will guarantee deposits in a decentralised model?
    Why do we need deposit guarantees if the current (government controlled) system is working so well?

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    Quote Originally Posted by demonloop View Post
    Why do we need deposit guarantees if the current (government controlled) system is working so well?
    Well if a bank fails, which is not as uncommon as you may think, it's helpful to the account holders if the government guarantees the deposits (up to £85k)

  7. #2707
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montello View Post
    Well if a bank fails, which is not as uncommon as you may think, it's helpful to the account holders if the government guarantees the deposits (up to £85k)
    Yes, but you miss my point. If the “system” (broad term I know) works so well then banks shouldn’t fail - and guarantees shouldn’t be needed.

    It’s always puzzled me how banks can even fail in a fractional reserve system, sounds like a license to print money if you ask me (tongue firmly in cheek)

  8. #2708
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montello View Post
    The implication of the post was the Bitcoin deposits give yields traditional cash didn’t.

    What you are describing are returns for risks ... that’s fine but you don’t need to convert your capital to Bitcoin to indulge in risky activities to create yield. It’s the underlying risk that creates, hopefully, the return not the denomination of the means of transfer.
    There have been numerous Fiat monetary systems that have debased to almost zero by the way. I read recenty that something like 95% of all currencies that have ever existed to date, have gone to zero already. The Zimbabwean dollar and Venezuelan currencies being the most recent. It’s possible it could also happen with more mainstream currencies. The Fed is certainly trying their hardest, given the amount of new money they’ve produced out of thin air in the last two years.

    Edited to add link. https://goldiraguide.org/the-worlds-...ency-failures/
    Last edited by mr noble; 28th April 2021 at 07:55.

  9. #2709
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr noble View Post

    There have been numerous Fiat monetary systems that have debased to almost zero by the way. I read recenty that something like 95% of all currencies that have ever existed to date, have gone to zero already. The Zimbabwean dollar and Venezuelan currencies being the most recent. It’s possible it could also happen with more mainstream currencies. The Fed is certainly trying their hardest, given the amount of new money they’ve produced out of thin air in the last two years.
    My point was I don’t store my capital in any currency, I store it in property, shares of companies, commodities and bonds.

    If the local currency is debased I don’t care as i own yielding assets with intrinsic value. I would never store all my wealth in USD, GBP, Zimbabwean Dollar, Bitcoin or any other currency ... that doesn’t make any sense.

  10. #2710
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    Quote Originally Posted by demonloop View Post
    Yes, but you miss my point. If the “system” (broad term I know) works so well then banks shouldn’t fail - and guarantees shouldn’t be needed.

    It’s always puzzled me how banks can even fail in a fractional reserve system, sounds like a license to print money if you ask me (tongue firmly in cheek)
    The number of consumers who have claimed on the FSCS scheme is pretty low but for those that have it’s no doubt been a very welcome backstop.

    The point is the government guarantee creates confidence making people willing to deposit. Without the guarantee people would be storing cash in the attic.

  11. #2711
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    Oh my God.
    Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.

  12. #2712
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    The world's richest man manipulating the money of the future again.

    DOGE up 26% after Elon Musk tweet. When will he go to prison?




    Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.

  13. #2713
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raffe View Post
    The world's richest man manipulating the money of the future again.

    DOGE up 26% after Elon Musk tweet. When will he go to prison?




    Would be amusing if it turns out he doesn't hold any.. but instead made a lot of his followers wealthy in the process.

    Do we know for sure that Elon holds any doge?

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  14. #2714
    I'm pretty sure he bought some for his Son

  15. #2715
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montello View Post
    What’s interesting in the Bitcoin revolution is the desire for people to store their capital in a non-yielding asset.

    Typically people invest their capital in companies and property being the two main ones, only a few people invest in commodities such as gold. But event those who do that may only have 5-10% of their portfolio in gold as a hedge.

    With Bitcoin seems many of the younger generation are piling all their capital into Bitcoin when they really ought to be owning yielding assets ... this strikes me as a pure act of speculation on the latest get rich quick mania.

    I’m sure crypto currency will be a significant thing ... but most of my capital is held in assets and I guess it doesn’t really matter which currency of means of exchange they are valued in and the nature of the denomination of the yield ... if conventional money is dead then my assets will end up being denominated in some other token.

    But speculating in the tokens themselves just seems like an extreme version of FX trading for beginners.
    Non yielding? You can earn 2-20% staking a number of coins, no problem.

    Here is further info: https://coinmarketcap.com/alexandria...ing-guide-2021


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  16. #2716
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montello View Post
    Why is decentralised finance a good thing?

    Who will guarantee deposits in a decentralised model?
    1. Power to the people
    2. The blockchain


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  17. #2717
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozzyb123 View Post
    1. Power to the people
    2. The blockchain


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    1. What does that even mean? Please explain. Seriously.
    2. Blockchain doesn't help you if the party to which you have lent your bitcoin defaults, same as in the real world.
    Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.

  18. #2718
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raffe View Post
    2. Blockchain doesn't help you if the party to which you have lent your bitcoin defaults, same as in the real world.
    I'm with Raffe on this one

    Until they find some other way to put a 'charge' against my coins whilst they remain in my control, I'll be sitting out the yield part

    Some sort of escrow I suppose, but then the escrow service could kaput

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raffe View Post
    1. What does that even mean? Please explain. Seriously.
    2. Blockchain doesn't help you if the party to which you have lent your bitcoin defaults, same as in the real world.
    Exactly ... maybe there will be no defaults ... time will tell.

  20. #2720
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    I’m baffled by it all lol


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  21. #2721
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    Jemima Kelly casts her eye over Revolut's "announcement" on the beefing up of their crypto/bitcoin strategy - https://www.ft.com/content/fce3785d-...e-c478f98941eb

    *There must be more than a few press departments in 'the city' where cold sweats are liable to break out at the mention of her name.

  22. #2722
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    Quote Originally Posted by petethegeek View Post
    Jemima Kelly casts her eye over Revolut's "announcement" on the beefing up of their crypto/bitcoin strategy - https://www.ft.com/content/fce3785d-...e-c478f98941eb

    *There must be more than a few press departments in 'the city' where cold sweats are liable to break out at the mention of her name.
    https://archive.ph/jbemV
    Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.

  23. #2723
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raffe View Post
    Apologies. I keep forgetting that they require registration/subscription.

  24. #2724
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    I must be giddy, having just signed off from my first week of work since March 2020, I felt the sudden urge to buy £500 of Doge coin. Absolutely no idea why...just love the Doge.

    I may also order one of these....

    HAGWE all.



  25. #2725
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr noble View Post
    I must be giddy, having just signed off from my first week of work since March 2020, I felt the sudden urge to buy £500 of Doge coin. Absolutely no idea why...just love the Doge.

    I may also order one of these....

    HAGWE all.


    Looking an inspired purchase already +5%, and without the Dogefather too.

  26. #2726
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raffe View Post
    1. What does that even mean? Please explain. Seriously.
    2. Blockchain doesn't help you if the party to which you have lent your bitcoin defaults, same as in the real world.
    1. Freedom from banks - lots of reasons why that’s important around the world
    2. If it works like the real world, what’s your problem with it?


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  27. #2727
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    Quote Originally Posted by demonloop View Post
    I'm with Raffe on this one

    Until they find some other way to put a 'charge' against my coins whilst they remain in my control, I'll be sitting out the yield part

    Some sort of escrow I suppose, but then the escrow service could kaput
    Right now, you can open a Coinbase account and earn 6% on your money by buying Algorand tokens. Of course, you will also gain / lose based on how the token performs versus your chosen fiat currency. Thankfully, fiat is always in some sort of long term decline due to QE, and demand for altcoins is significant.

    This is no longer a niche area of finance. The total market cap for cryptocurrencies is around 2 trillion. Half of which is Bitcoin alone...and Bitcoin is the most boring part of the story


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  28. #2728
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomRea View Post
    I’m baffled by it all lol


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    Most people are baffled by how “normal” financial products and services work. Not surprised many are baffled by crypto currencies


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  29. #2729
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozzyb123 View Post
    1. Freedom from banks - lots of reasons why that’s important around the world
    2. If it works like the real world, what’s your problem with it?


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    Freedom from banks, traded against dependence on shady crypto exchanges. Great.

    Can't argue with cultists.

    Good night.
    Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.

  30. #2730
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raffe View Post
    Freedom from banks, traded against dependence on shady crypto exchanges. Great.

    Can't argue with cultists.

    Good night.
    That’s a leap if I’ve ever heard one, and quite offensive really

    Use case 1: There are millions of people who need to send small amounts of money cross borders to help pay bills. Say sending $15 from Libya to Ethiopia. To do that using conventional systems, the banking fee might exceed the value of the transfer itself. There are solutions designed to avoid this using the Cardano and Stellar networks that don’t involve a single shady crypto exchange or cult belief, and at greatly reduced costs


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  31. #2731
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozzyb123 View Post
    That’s a leap if I’ve ever heard one, and quite offensive really

    Use case 1: There are millions of people who need to send small amounts of money cross borders to help pay bills. Say sending $15 from Libya to Ethiopia. To do that using conventional systems, the banking fee might exceed the value of the transfer itself. There are solutions designed to avoid this using the Cardano and Stellar networks that don’t involve a single shady crypto exchange or cult belief, and at greatly reduced costs


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    There are hundreds of fintech solutions to do this faster and more efficient (and the best example of a means of transfer where cost exceeds the amount in this example would be bitcoin).
    Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.

  32. #2732
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raffe View Post

    Can't argue with cultists.

    Good night.
    Is a cultist a believer in something, or a denier of something?

  33. #2733
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raffe View Post
    There are hundreds of fintech solutions to do this faster and more efficient (and the best example of a means of transfer where cost exceeds the amount in this example would be bitcoin).
    He didn’t say Bitcoin, he said Cardano, but good attempt to divert :-)

    I’m not sure a fintech solution would be able to transfer a small amount between 2 African countries (or a billion between two wallets) as cheaply as crypto

  34. #2734
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    Bitcoin

    Quote Originally Posted by Raffe View Post
    There are hundreds of fintech solutions to do this faster and more efficient (and the best example of a means of transfer where cost exceeds the amount in this example would be bitcoin).
    If there are hundreds of fintech solutions does that not tell you there is a problem to be solved? Blockchain technology can offer solutions to address real world problems in finance. It is not just about token price speculation and epic gains, though that is what gets headlines. You can’t dismiss something because it has alternatives...

    Bitcoin isn’t designed for small transactions - so this is a straw man argument. There are dozens of projects that are specifically designed to facilitate low cost transactions in the blockchain space.


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    Last edited by ozzyb123; 1st May 2021 at 06:51.

  35. #2735
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozzyb123 View Post
    If there are hundreds of fintech solutions does that not tell you there is a problem to be solved? Blockchain technology can offer solutions to address real world problems in finance. It is not just about token price speculation and epic gains, though that is what gets headlines. You can’t dismiss something because it has alternatives...

    Bitcoin isn’t designed for small transactions - so this is a straw man argument. There are dozens of projects that are specifically designed to facilitate low cost transactions in the blockchain space.


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    Agreed Bitcoin is not for small transactions given the rising transaction fees and 'slow' confirmation times, but the lightning network built on the bitcoin network can - and is being deployed already.

    https://www.coindesk.com/strike-laun...upport-is-next

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    I’m not sure what customer need any of this is solving though, I can make digital transactions world wide via my phone without using any crypto currency.

    Clearly there are some issues in countries with unstable currency but in most developed countries we already have a digital means of exchange. 97% of money does not physically exist, it’s all digital or crypto if that makes it sound cooler.

    Crypto currently is a speculative asset that a few are riding to get rich quick, some will make lots and others will get burnt.

    I’m not sure what the end game will be but celebrity corporate rich blokes ramping up a joke currency via Twitter which encourages people to buy a crypto created as a joke should surely ring alarm bells yet I see serious grown ups throwing in capital hoping to catch some easy money. How does this end?

  37. #2737
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    I haven’t commented on this thread before.

    I’ve read with interest the last few pages and I’m still curious about the events or triggers that cause participants to buy or sell bitcoin.

    Is it sentiment and random musk comments or are you monitoring indicators / proxies and predicting movement?

  38. #2738
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  39. #2739
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    Quote Originally Posted by joe narvey View Post
    I haven’t commented on this thread before.

    I’ve read with interest the last few pages and I’m still curious about the events or triggers that cause participants to buy or sell bitcoin.

    Is it sentiment and random musk comments or are you monitoring indicators / proxies and predicting movement?
    I bought in a few years ago when the penny dropped that this could be the future. The stock to flow model was the indicator that clinched it for me. It’s still scarily accurate today, years later.

  40. #2740
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    Indeed it seems a solution looking for a problem to solve, when there's already lot's of perfectly good, effective, less energy costly solutions. And still nobody can categorically say what it's for, only what it's not...not going to be a currency, not going to be a digital payment system for small transactions...the narrative keeps evolving yet all the while as M points out the techno fraudster keeps pumping it to his sheep followers to make easy money for himself...hmmm...if it walks and quacks like a duck...though if folks can make on it then crack on.
    Last edited by Passenger; 1st May 2021 at 09:01.

  41. #2741
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    Quote Originally Posted by Passenger View Post
    Indeed it seems a solution looking for a problem to solve, when there's already lot's of perfectly good, effective, less energy costly solutions. And still nobody can categorically say what it's for, only what it's not...not going to be a currency, not going to be a digital payment system for small transactions...the narrative keeps evolving yet all the while as M points out the techno fraudster keeps pumping it to his sheep followers to make easy money for himself...hmmm...if it walks and quacks like a duck...though if folks can make on it then crack on.
    I can see the case for cryptocommodities, cryptotokens but the design principles of a cryptocurrency and disintermediation seem to be undermined by the regulation.

    Its ironic that the financial world is either evaluating cryptocurrency to see what they are missing or the ESG sustainability agenda when the consensus model on proof of work based infrastructure platforms is contributing massively to pollution.

  42. #2742
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr noble View Post
    I must be giddy, having just signed off from my first week of work since March 2020, I felt the sudden urge to buy £500 of Doge coin. Absolutely no idea why...just love the Doge.

    24 hours in 16% up. 🐶

  43. #2743
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr noble View Post
    24 hours in 16% up. 
    It’s free money bro ...

  44. #2744
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    Quote Originally Posted by demonloop View Post
    Bought some more btc at a hair under 48k.
    Now at 58k. Not selling though.

  45. #2745
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr noble View Post
    24 hours in 16% up. 
    48 hours in and the Doge is now 25% up.

    Easy money.

  46. #2746
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    Not all cryptocurrency is a solution to a yet-to-be-defined problem:

    https://telcoin.medium.com/reimagini...y-5300d2d44a0e

  47. #2747
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    Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.

  48. #2748
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    Smells of desperation.

  49. #2749
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    Smells of massage oil.

  50. #2750
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    Finally people can trade bitcoin via a regulated exchange without having to expose themselves to a 5 BTC minimum. This adds a lot of liquidity to the game, especially on the short side of the market.


    CME Group, the world's leading and most diverse derivatives marketplace, today launched Micro Bitcoin futures, further expanding its suite of crypto derivatives offerings. "We are pleased to introduce this new contract at a time when we continue to see consistent growth of liquidity and participation in our crypto futures and options," said Tim McCourt, CME Group Global Head of Equity Index and Alternative Investment Products. "At one-tenth the size of one bitcoin, Micro Bitcoin futures will provide an efficient, cost-effective way for a broad array of market participants – from institutions to sophisticated, active traders – to fine-tune their bitcoin exposure and enhance their trading strategies, all while retaining the benefits of CME Group's standard Bitcoin futures."
    Press release



    Contract specs: https://www.cmegroup.com/trading/mic...n-futures.html

    It's even smaller than I expected, only 1/50th of the existing futures. Let the games begin, just sold my first trial contract short @ $59,000.
    Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.

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