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Thread: "The mark of death"?

  1. #1
    Master
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    "The mark of death"?

    Has anyone come across Rolex refusing to service older models and identifying this refusal by scratching three Xs inside the case-back?

    Les XXX ou « The mark of death »…

    Nous en venons à l’une des pratiques les plus contestables du Service Après Vente de la Société ROLEX, une pratique qui consiste à graver, dans le fond des boîtiers des montres ROLEX les plus anciennes la marque d’un triple X en cas de refus de révision de la montre.

    Une marque indélébile qui jette la suspicion sur l’état de la montre si bien qu’aucun collectionneur avisé ne prendra le risque d’en faire l’acquisition : « The mark of death », une gravure mortelle, disent les collectionneurs.

    Imaginez une montre ROLEX de collection, ayant 30 à 40 années d’ancienneté, une pièce rarissime et exceptionnelle, d’une valeur patrimoniale souvent considérable, qui va brutalement être dévalorisée et dégradée, du simple fait que le Service Après Vente de la Société ROLEX aura gravé sur son boîtier ce stigmate de trois X.

    Et qu’importe si pour y remédier l’on fait disparaître cette inscription en changeant le boîtier. Car sur une pièce de collection, une telle modification a inévitablement pour effet de dévaloriser la montre.

    Au demeurant, tout collectionneur avisé ne manquera pas de s’interroger sur la présence d’un nouveau boîtier sur une montre très ancienne.

    Dans les maisons comme Sotheby’s ou Christie’s, les montres ROLEX sont présentées avec le boîtier ouvert.

    Quelle désolation pour les professionnels de la collection que nous sommes, de découvrir en ouvrant le boîtier de montres anciennes ROLEX que nous présentent nos clients ces XXX et de devoir alors leur annoncer que la montre a perdu une grande part de sa valeur…

    Le plus souvent, ces propriétaires ne soupçonnaient même pas que leur montre était gravée…

    Et pour cause, c’est dans l’ignorance de ce risque qu’ils ont confié pour révision leur montre ancienne au Service Après Vente de la Société ROLEX.

    Pouvait-il, il est vrai, un seul instant imaginer que si leur montre était jugée non révisable, elle leur serait restituée, non pas telle qu’il l’avait confiée, mais avec l’inscription sournoise d’un signe dévalorisant.

    Ce procédé est d’autant plus choquant que le Service Après Vente de la Société ROLEX ne précise pas toujours clairement les raisons pour lesquelles les montres qui leur sont confiées ne seraient pas révisables…

    Montres dont, soit dit en passant, cette même société ROLEX vante la résistance à toute épreuve…


    J'accuse donc le Service Après Vente de la Société ROLEX, en portant sur les montres de collection prétendument non révisables qui leur sont confiées, un signe représentant trois X, d’exposer leurs propriétaires à un lourd préjudice patrimonial.

    Combien de centaines de milliers d’euros sont ainsi partis en fumée et continueront ainsi de se consumer si nous ne réagissons pas.

    En tant que professionnel de la collection, nous assistons avec dépit et inquiétude à la disparition progressive de ces pièces historiques rarissimes, et mettons donc très sérieusement en garde les propriétaires des montres ROLEX contre les pratiques du Service Après Vente de la société ROLEX.







  2. #2
    Grand Master MartynJC (UK)'s Avatar
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    Google translate:

    The XXX or "The mark of death" ...


    We come to one of the most questionable practices of ROLEX's After-Sales Service, a practice that consists of engraving, in the bottom of the boxes of the oldest ROLEX watches, the mark of a triple X in case of refusal of the watch.


    An indelible mark that throws suspicion on the condition of the watch so that no wise collector will take the risk of acquiring it: "The mark of death", a deadly engraving, say the collectors.


    Imagine a collectible ROLEX watch, 30 to 40 years old, a rare and exceptional piece, often of considerable heritage value, which will brutally be devalued and degraded, simply because ROLEX's After-Sales Service will have engraved on its case this stigma of three X.


    And it does not matter if to remedy it one makes disappear this inscription by changing the box. Because on a collection piece, such a change inevitably has the effect of devaluing the watch.


    Moreover, any wise collector will not fail to wonder about the presence of a new case on a very old watch.


    In homes like Sotheby's or Christie's, ROLEX watches are presented with the case open.


    What a desolation for the professionals of the collection that we are, to discover by opening the case of old watches ROLEX that presents us our customers XXX and to have to announce to them that the watch lost a great part of its value ...


    Most often, these owners did not even suspect that their watch was engraved ...


    And for good reason, it is in the ignorance of this risk that they entrusted for review their old watch to the After-Sales Service of the Company ROLEX.


    It was true that he could, for a moment, imagine that if their watch were deemed unrevisable, it would be restored to them, not as it had been entrusted to it, but with the sneaky inscription of a devaluing sign.


    This process is all the more shocking as the ROLEX Service does not always clearly specify the reasons why the watches that are entrusted to them can not be revised ...


    Watches which, by the way, this same company ROLEX boasts resistance to any test ...




    I therefore accuse the ROLEX Company's After-Sales Service, by treating the so-called unreviewable collection watches entrusted to them with a sign representing three X's, to expose their owners to heavy economic damage.


    How many hundreds of thousands of euros have gone up in smoke and will continue to burn if we do not react.


    As a professional in the collection, we are watching with dismay and concern at the gradual disappearance of these rare historical pieces, and we therefore seriously warn the owners of ROLEX watches against the ROLEX service after-sales practices.


  3. #3
    Master
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    Surely not - that is just vandalism.

  4. #4
    Craftsman
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    Is this a wind up. That looks as though it has been scratched in, not engraved. I find it hard to believe that Rolex would act in such an unprofessional way. It also seems strange that it is the first we have heard about it if it has been going on for some time.

  5. #5
    Grand Master Dave+63's Avatar
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    "The mark of death"?

    I can't see rare and valuable vintage Rolex watches being suddenly rendered worthless because of a few scratches inside the case back.

    It all sounds a bit far fetched to me.

    If indeed it is true that Rolex mark the watches they're no longer prepared to service then it doesn't take a genius to work out that there will be independents who are happy to take on the work.

  6. #6
    It seems to emanate from a Rolex dealer in Paris and it's a bit of a bête-noire of his.

    http://www.olivine-prestige.com

    R
    Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.

  7. #7
    Grand Master RustyBin5's Avatar
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    Obtain market values for pre marked watch and the post marked watch - then sue Rolex for the difference in a civil suit for damages.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  8. #8
    Grand Master Wallasey Runner's Avatar
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    I don't see it making any difference. Are you seriously telling me that if someone was selling a late 60s/early 70s Daytona, SD or Submariner etc that it's value would be affected by the fact that Rolex no longer wanted to care for it. Absolute nonsense.

    Most owners of highly desirable vintage pieces steer well clear of Rolex for the damage that they can inflict by wanting to replace everything and prefer to use trusted independents who will only perform the work requested like movement services etc.

    Does anyone have a pic of these xxx, but if they appeared in a Mark 1 Red Submariner or a DRSD it wouldn't make the slightest difference to a serious buyer.

  9. #9
    Master
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    This nothing Rolex SA in Geneva would ever do or sanction. They even have a vintage restoration department there.

    Probably a rogue dealer/watchmaker who's too lazy to work on anything old.

  10. #10
    Grand Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave+63 View Post
    I can't see rare and valuable vintage Rolex watches being suddenly rendered worthless because of a few scratches inside the case back.

    It all sounds a bit far fetched to me.

    If indeed it is true that Rolex mark the watches they're no longer prepared to service then it doesn't take a genius to work out that there will be independents who are happy to take on the work.
    +1.....common sense clearly has to prevail!

  11. #11
    Sounds like a ghost story that collectors tell to their grandkids in an attempt to scare them. :P

  12. #12
    Master
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    The various Rolex service codes including XXX are in fact well known.

    They are indeed applied by Rolex service centres, simply scratched into the case back with normal service numbers.

    XX - watch service / estimate declined by customer
    Xxx - watch declined by Rolex ... Not to be worked on by any official Rolex service centre.

    However, it is my experience that the service centres themselves sometimes confuse one, two or three Xs !

    By chance I am just processing a 2007 lady's Datejust with a double X marking, where the former owner could not stomach the service estimate (hence XX) and sold to me instead.

    I am not convinced that a triple X wipes out value. One might wish to satisfy oneself why Rolex wouldn't service it, but the appraisal of the independent components of a vintage Rolex should be undertaken anyway.

    Here are some service codes internal to Rolex which you may like, collated from different sources :

    L Large Job (Complete Service)
    S Small Job (Minor, Quick Repairs)
    B Bracelet repairs (No Work on Watch)
    Q Quick Service Small Job
    QB Quick Service Bracelet Repair
    QC Quick Service Comeback
    QW Quick Service under Warranty
    QI Quick Service International Warranty
    LC Large Comeback (Extensive Repairs under Service Warranty)
    SC Small Comeback (Minor Repairs under Service Warranty)
    LW Large Warranty (Extensive repairs under New Goods warranty)
    SW Small Warranty (Minor repairs under new Goods Warranty)
    LI Large International Warranty
    SI Small International Warranty
    NJ No Job (Return unrepaired, no service performed)
    CNJ Counterfeit No Jobs
    IMTO Counterfeit returned or destroyed
    QNJ Quick Service No Jobs
    VNJ Vintage Watch no Jobs
    Sub Categories
    1 Technical Error
    2 Defectice Part
    3 Accidental Damage
    4 Over One Year old ( Service Warranty or New Goods Warranty)
    XPST Watch has no papers, stickers or tags, so must be fake *
    TZUKM Watch belongs to a tz-uk forum member, ensure dust left on dial *
    PAS Exclusive DD40 code / owner has special relationship with AD. Code Red *
    WFER Watch has been sold by Watchfinder. Client may expect to pay 15% more than anyone else *
    LEOP Leopard print Daytona. Russian moll or Rod Stewart. Beware asking one to pay anything / the moll would be ok *
    LVX Green bezel replacement premium. €300 surcharge to be directed into Xmas party fund *
    CELL Non-Oyster dress watch. Additional case polishing to reduce tweed snaggery *

    By way of example : 08/17 LON 47/155842XX would be a service mark for Rolex UK where the watch has been received by them in August 2017 and allocated job number 4700155842, but the estimate was declined by the client and the watch returned with work not done.

    Haywood

    * These ones may be spurious.
    Last edited by Haywood_Milton; 21st September 2017 at 12:33.

  13. #13
    Master Neilw3030's Avatar
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    I have seen a couple of x scribed inside a Rolex case back before, only once but then again i havent seen inside many, did wonder what it meant.

  14. #14
    Craftsman
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton View Post
    The various Rolex service codes including XXX are in fact well known.

    They are indeed applied by Rolex service centres, simply scratched into the case back with normal service numbers.

    XX - watch service / estimate declined by customer
    Xxx - watch declined by Rolex ... Not to be worked on by any official Rolex service centre.

    However, it is my experience that the service centres themselves sometimes confuse one, two or three Xs !

    By chance I am just processing a 2007 lady's Datejust with a double X marking, where the former owner could not stomach the service estimate (hence XX) and sold to me instead.

    I am not convinced that a triple X wipes out value. One might wish to satisfy oneself why Rolex wouldn't service it, but the appraisal of the independent components of a vintage Rolex should be undertaken anyway.

    Here are some service codes internal to Rolex which you may like, collated from different sources :

    L Large Job (Complete Service)
    S Small Job (Minor, Quick Repairs)
    B Bracelet repairs (No Work on Watch)
    Q Quick Service Small Job
    QB Quick Service Bracelet Repair
    QC Quick Service Comeback
    QW Quick Service under Warranty
    QI Quick Service International Warranty
    LC Large Comeback (Extensive Repairs under Service Warranty)
    SC Small Comeback (Minor Repairs under Service Warranty)
    LW Large Warranty (Extensive repairs under New Goods warranty)
    SW Small Warranty (Minor repairs under new Goods Warranty)
    LI Large International Warranty
    SI Small International Warranty
    NJ No Job (Return unrepaired, no service performed)
    CNJ Counterfeit No Jobs
    IMTO Counterfeit returned or destroyed
    QNJ Quick Service No Jobs
    VNJ Vintage Watch no Jobs
    Sub Categories
    1 Technical Error
    2 Defectice Part
    3 Accidental Damage
    4 Over One Year old ( Service Warranty or New Goods Warranty)
    XPST Watch has no papers, stickers or tags, so must be fake *
    TZUKM Watch belongs to a tz-uk forum member, ensure dust left on dial *
    PAS Exclusive DD40 code / owner has special relationship with AD. Code Red *
    WFER Watch has been sold by Watchfinder. Client may expect to pay 15% more than anyone else *
    LEOP Leopard print Daytona. Russian moll or Rod Stewart. Beware asking one to pay anything / the moll would be ok *
    LVX Green bezel replacement premium. €300 surcharge to be directed into Xmas party fund *
    CELL Non-Oyster dress watch. Additional case polishing to reduce tweed snaggery *

    By way of example : 08/17 LON 47/155842XX would be a service mark for Rolex UK where the watch has been received by them in August 2017 and allocated job number 4700155842, but the estimate was declined by the client and the watch returned with work not done.

    Haywood

    * These ones may be spurious.
    Love the imagination on these* Haywood.
    Thank you once again for your time and effort , where would we be without you !
    Top man


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  15. #15
    Craftsman
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    This does seem odd - surely, if the customer is not told about "service marks" being applied & agrees, this constitutes criminal damage?

  16. #16
    Craftsman
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    An absolutely fascinating insight, as always Haywood.
    Also loved the extra * abbreviations!
    Thanks again.


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  17. #17
    Grand Master Griswold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ares View Post
    This does seem odd - surely, if the customer is not told about "service marks" being applied & agrees, this constitutes criminal damage?
    I think pretty much all watchmakers scratch service marks on the inside of casebacks after service without telling the customer. I know of one watchmaker who scratches the date on batteries fitted to quartz watches - covers them for warranty claims I guess?
    Best Regards - Peter

    I'd hate to be with you when you're on your own.

  18. #18
    Master
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    Great info! But I also do not like the fact they are putting scratches on it without permission, don't care even it is on case back that I cannot see

    Sent from my Moto C Plus using Tapatalk

  19. #19
    Grand Master Wallasey Runner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ac11111 View Post
    Great info! But I also do not like the fact they are putting scratches on it without permission, don't care even it is on case back that I cannot see

    Sent from my Moto C Plus using Tapatalk
    It gives you a history of a watch. I had a 40 year old Rolex that had evidence in scratches of at least 7 services in different years, surely that is a good thing.

  20. #20
    Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wallasey Runner View Post
    It gives you a history of a watch. I had a 40 year old Rolex that had evidence in scratches of at least 7 services in different years, surely that is a good thing.
    That is a valid point, particularly if buying without papers.

    Sent from my Moto C Plus using Tapatalk

  21. #21
    Master SteveHarris's Avatar
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    I quite like seeing them on vintage watches. I had a WWI Rolex Trench with the repairers engraving inside the caseback. It's quite interesting to see and some had dates on too.

    Steve

  22. #22
    Grand Master Griswold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ac11111 View Post
    Great info! But I also do not like the fact they are putting scratches on it without permission, don't care even it is on case back that I cannot see

    Sent from my Moto C Plus using Tapatalk
    In which case either don't send your watch in for service or specifically ask that the watchmaker doesn't scratch service information on the caseback after service - though in the latter case you may find the watch returned unserviced.
    Best Regards - Peter

    I'd hate to be with you when you're on your own.

  23. #23
    Craftsman
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    Griswold .... that’s a shallow reply until today I did not know Rolex marked the inside of watches and coincidentally a surgeon today received a criminal conviction for laser inscribing transplanted livers with his initials...
    I stretch I know but I am drinking Tequila......


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  24. #24
    Master
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    Another top post from Haywood.

  25. #25
    Craftsman
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    surely any such marking would be stamped, and at least not scratched free hand?

  26. #26
    Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by td1596 View Post
    surely any such marking would be stamped, and at least not scratched free hand?
    No, scratched by hand they are.

  27. #27
    Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wallasey Runner View Post
    It gives you a history of a watch. I had a 40 year old Rolex that had evidence in scratches of at least 7 services in different years, surely that is a good thing.
    Surely it does nothing of the sort unless it's some magic unforgable scratches. Anybody can take a case back off and go at it with a screw driver.

  28. #28
    Grand Master Wallasey Runner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hafle View Post
    Surely it does nothing of the sort unless it's some magic unforgable scratches. Anybody can take a case back off and go at it with a screw driver.
    Not when Mike Wood took the back off for me and knew the names of a few of the guys who undertook the service. Also there is a format that they generally follow that the likes of Mike and Haywood can translate into English for us mere mortals.

  29. #29
    Master
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    If one maintains a register of all the service numbers one comes across, it also possible to know the rough job number range for any corresponding month's date code. One might also compare the format and style of application. Consistent features may instil confidence in a watch.

    As often when studying vintage Rolex, effort and reward correspond.

    H
    Last edited by Haywood_Milton; 14th December 2017 at 14:36.

  30. #30
    Craftsman
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    I had assumed Rolex would have stopped scratching in casebacks by now.

    It is an old fashioned system superceded by computerised repair systems. I never vandalise watches by scratching them.
    The very worst are watchmakers who scratch the movement plates with numbers as they overload the cleaning machine too much and need to ID who's watch is who.
    Or if not fully stripping the auto works which auto work goes with which watch.

    Other than Jaeger with a table inside the case back and Rolex it appears. I don't know of any manufacturers who still do this. No excuse for independents with easily available repair software now.

  31. #31
    Craftsman
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    Some fascinating information in this thread. Thanks again Hayward. Very interesting.

  32. #32
    Craftsman 01101001's Avatar
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    I have decided to look into this so I will be watching movies on the subject for the rest of the day. I found a specialist website that deals in xxx movies.

  33. #33
    Craftsman
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    You learn something new every day. Thank you

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