Airstream Caravan Shipping Agent Problems Legal advice anyone?

[lordloz]

Going to throw this in here as know there are a few legal brains & some who have imported vehicles too.

Try & keep short:

Son bought '65 Airstream Caravan (yes the polished type)from Florida & shipped by agent in Derby.
The agent is a clown & has stupidly paid customs & excise far too much as paid on wrong code. Instead of 5% as its a '65 he's paid 20% which think is about £3.5k.
Its his fault & C&E have confirmed they don't know why he paid that amount.
Now he isn't releasing caravan unless my son pays whole amount.
He only actually owes £937 which is payable on delivery to his door only.
Police can't act as civil at moment & he has started to contact trading standards. Despite not having the extra he is understandably reluctant to pay the demanded balance in case especially as its the agents fault he paid incorrectly but that he either doesn't ever get back from Gov or has to wait a long time for it. At one point he called police because we thought the van had been vanished as he refused to send any container shipping details either but it is supposed to be in UK now.

I am tempted to call the bloke & try & resolve but suspect will still be no avail or to get our solicitor to just send a warning letter to him to release the vehicle.

Anyone with any experience in this area gratefully received of how we should proceed.... thanks.

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[MB2]

One possibility would be to pay the agent but insist before he does on a precise invoice. HMRC are pretty good at refunding (or charging) if you pay them the wrong amount in my experience. Although personally I would ask/ insist the agent asked HMRC for a refund he might be more cooperative if your son calls HMRC first and asks what the process is as that way it will be clear his name is on the documents. You do need a correct (incorrrct) invoice from the agent as obviously fees are up to him but duty/VAT are clearly defined. We pay HMRC direct but the helpline is open to all.


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[Jimmcb]

One possibility would be to pay the agent but insist before he does on a precise invoice. HMRC are pretty good at refunding (or charging) if you pay them the wrong amount in my experience. Although personally I would ask/ insist the agent asked HMRC for a refund he might be more cooperative if your son calls HMRC first and asks what the process is as that way it will be clear his name is on the documents. You do need a correct (incorrrct) invoice from the agent as obviously fees are up to him but duty/VAT are clearly defined. We pay HMRC direct but the helpline is open to all.


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That's good advice OP.

[lordloz]

Thanks for that, much appreciated-unfortunately he doesn't have the £3.5k to pay HMRC to then get back. Especially as the mistake isn't his & has started repayments on the loan for it & doesn't actually even have it yet. He has called HMRC as i said who confirmed they don't know why the clown paid the wrong code as its his daily business. Think will call them again but also like the idea of getting the detailed invoice breakdown. Cheers

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[JasonM]

Thanks for that, much appreciated-unfortunately he doesn't have the £3.5k to pay HMRC to then get back. Especially as the mistake isn't his & has started repayments on the loan for it & doesn't actually even have it yet. He has called HMRC as i said who confirmed they don't know why the clown paid the wrong code as its his daily business. Think will call them again but also like the idea of getting the detailed invoice breakdown. Cheers

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Does your son have to pay HMRC or the importer? If he's paying the importer who has paid or has to pay HMRC then it would be him doing the claiming back, which would be hard for you to keep track of as he then doesn't have a vested interest in doing so, if you are paying HMRC directly then can you not resubmit new accurate paperwork ?

Edit. Sorry, I see the agent has paid it already, I don't see how the claim back can be done by anyone but him, and as I say if you pay him he won't have any reason to persue it.

[MB2]

Does your son have to pay HMRC or the importer? If he's paying the importer who has paid or has to pay HMRC then it would be him doing the claiming back, which would be hard for you to keep track of as he then doesn't have a vested interest in doing so, if you are paying HMRC directly then can you not resubmit new accurate paperwork ?

Edit. Sorry, I see the agent has paid it already, I don't see how the claim back can be done by anyone but him, and as I say if you pay him he won't have any reason to persue it.

it will depend a bit if he is an agent or a shipper. It is a good question as if he is an agent he will have to be pretty large to have a DAN account as HMRC require fixed assets of a bond, it is more common on large sums to pay HMRC direct.

Definitely push them for an itemised invoice then your son can challenge the VAT amount directly with HMRC & probably even settle the correct VAT direct with HMRC. We do this often - pay HMRC and scan the payment to the shipper who waits for confirmation from HMRC the VAT/duty has been paid and then releases the goods.

It sounds really odd the agent wants to give more money than necessary to HMRC so this does need challenging as even HMRC won't want too much VAT/duty !

[oldoakknives]

I'd go and see the man in person and explain what you want to happen.

[lordloz]

Thanks Jason & MB2 really useful.
I think he classed it as a trailer but because it is both classic & different weight it's zero and reduced VAT rate. He has entered the wrong code to HMRC paying the wrong higher rate.

Great info 're agent or shipper thanks will check.

Agree totally he should be getting refund & if paid will have no compunction to do so.

Oldoakknives...
I can go and see him however, as I'm in Devon & him in Derbyshire it's last resort doing that.

[lordloz]

Update after messaging son I have pasted in what he said...
=============
Well he's the agent. He used an unknown shipper to actually collect it from Florida and transport it to New York, and then on to the unknown ship to the unknown port in the UK. He initially invoiced me the correct vat figure which I paid him. I checked this with HMRC and they said sometimes shippers and shipping agents to do this and appears to be a legitimate method as opposed to me paying HMRC directly.
It was only when it cleared customs he issued me with a new invoice for the duty and vat. So I think it was the US shippers that filled out the customs documents incorrectly and led to a much higher figure. HMRC said the only people who can amend that paperwork are the ones who filled it out. I would contact them directly but he won't tell me who they are or how to contact them. He's just taken it as gospel that the higher figure is correct, paid it from his own account and invoiced me for it.



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[lordloz]

In addition - this is second reply from him - hope makes situation bit clearer & he is very grateful for all the advice.
=============
"But I still have no actual proof he's paid this amount. He won't give me any documentation or reference numbers with which I can contact anyone about this. As said, maybe he should ask them for a refund but I don't know if he can do that unless he resubmits the paperwork. But then I asked him to sort that and he just says I have to pay him the full amount."

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[JasonM]

Tricky situation. I would ask HMRC if a retrospective claim for the difference can be made by you. If not then I would stick to your guns and say you have paid the correct duties and VAT already and any cock up his end is nothing to do with you, you have paid in full and therefore have full ownership of the goods, its up to him and the US shippers to sort out their own mess.

[Thewatchbloke]

In my experience trying to sort out duty payable due to incorrectly filled out paperwork is impossible, even if all logic points to the fact it's a paperwork error.

http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.ph...=1#post3900446

[MB2]

In addition - this is second reply from him - hope makes situation bit clearer & he is very grateful for all the advice.
=============
"But I still have no actual proof he's paid this amount. He won't give me any documentation or reference numbers with which I can contact anyone about this. As said, maybe he should ask them for a refund but I don't know if he can do that unless he resubmits the paperwork. But then I asked him to sort that and he just says I have to pay him the full amount."

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I would demand an invoice showing the full VAT & Duty breakdown - either on the grounds you need to know the VAT has been paid, or he is a business and needs to reclaim the VAT & duty as a business expense. If he has trouble with this then I would call the VAT helpline and say you cannot get a VAT invoice.

I really would suggest he calls the VAT helpline they really are quite helpful and want to ensure the correct VAT & duty are collected/paid to HMRC.

[lordloz]

Again thanks for all the advice and help.

Late update tonight is - VAT helpline were very helpful too but were stuck without the tracking ref no. right now.

after 3 days of spam emails to him demanding the information which has been asked for for weeks he has asked for my son's address.

Now he maybe just sending an invoice with the same amount which at least can then be challenged but may possibly be by slim chance he has buckled and is arranging delivery and will have to claim it back himself as he should do in the first place.

Has said he will call tomorrow so will let you all know what he says.

cheers

[JasonM]

All the best, I hope you get the right result.

[MB2]

Again thanks for all the advice and help.

Late update tonight is - VAT helpline were very helpful too but were stuck without the tracking ref no. right now.

after 3 days of spam emails to him demanding the information which has been asked for for weeks he has asked for my son's address.

Now he maybe just sending an invoice with the same amount which at least can then be challenged but may possibly be by slim chance he has buckled and is arranging delivery and will have to claim it back himself as he should do in the first place.

Has said he will call tomorrow so will let you all know what he says.

cheers

Best of luck tomorrow- before he calls I would suggest another call to the VAT helpline to establish -

1 Does your sun have the right to a itemised VAT invoice (I am sure he does)

2 If the incorrect VAT has been paid how does one correct the situation?

This will at least prepare your son for the call if it doesn’t go quite as hoped and I expect prefacing his statements with “the VAT office said” will probably help if he knows his facts.


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[afcneal]

This may be an over-simplification, but:

I doubt HMRC will pay any refund to any party other then the one who paid them, so

You Son should only pay the correct amount due and whoever paid HMRC should chase the difference and manage the cashflow hit - indeed he/they shoulds have already started the reclaim process (if nor, why not?) and as posted already, HMRC are reasonably quick at processing refunds where these is a clear error.

I'd suggest your Son establishes the reclaim has been made and of so, waits until the repayment is made, then settles the correct amount and takes his goods?

[lordloz]

Thanks to everyone who replied including the very kind PM offer of help i received. Sorry for not updating much but was waiting for further progress. Now it's still not actually here yet but maybe a chink of light... this is last message from son i got so fingers crossed the HMRC "threats" as they are may have worked & is partial explanation. ======= "Well yesterday he did call me as he said he would, which was weird in itself. But it was like i was talking to a totally different person who seemed much more on the ball. He agreed I had paid the correct amount of duty and vat and he was going to try and sort it out with HMRC and get that refunded and re-issue the paperwork. He was aiming to get that done this week. I was quite taken back. He said he'd been away and his brother with learning disabilities had gained access to his emails and I have been in fact talking to him. I don't know if that's actually true. but I followed it up with an email to confirm what we'd spoken about and he said he was going to keep me posted on what happens. But I still don't know exactly when it's due to be delivered". ===== further news as we get it!

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[JasonM]

Well done on progress, however, he really has no excuse for not releasing the goods now, his reclaim from HMRC has nothing to do with you now.

[lordloz]

Thanks Jason... as i said still grateful to the kind folk of this parish & will update as it happens... if goes backwards will be in touch with those who offered to help.

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[justin44]

I once worked for a small freight forwarder, if he could find a way to add a few pounds to his profit he would and as they hold all the paperwork there is very little you can do, I’m guessing the next thing he’ll say is that as of xx date you will start to get charged storage either at the dock or his warehouse. Now the shipping line will say it’s £24 a day but he’ll tell you it’s £100 and there is pretty much nothing you can do.

You need to find out which shipping line is was, what the container number was, what vessel it came in on and where it is now.

Freight forwarders can be great or real greedy little sh*!s.

[lordloz]

Thanks Justin- he wouldn't release that information despite repeated requests but from the last message really hoping the story has moved on satisfactorily now but won't hold breath till it's delivered & bill confirmed as settled. Date due is now 8th October so will post on arrival!

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[lordloz]

well........ I thought I would update interested posters here as I hoped this would be done and dusted, after the shipping agent agreeing the tax was due etc. & then giving a delivery date.


My son came down to Devon to see a house and then instead of staying over and going back next day had to drive here and back as caravan due next morning very early....sort of 7 a.m. onwards.......


it never turned up.....now the guy is ignoring all emails and phone calls so back to square one....

He has a caravan paid for by loan and paying back instalments for and Police can't do anything yet as basically he has only "not yet" delivered it rather than taking money or goods fraudulently and basically stealing the caravan.......

Only faint glimmer of light is my mother has cousins in Nottingham/Derby area and she is up there this week...
she has passed on the details to one of them who is a DI in the area so hoping he can knock on his door of the 2 addresses we have,
or at least find out a bit more and see where he goes from here...

fingers crossed.....

[a13x]

I’m just outside and work in derby if I can be of any help. Not sure what use I could be but willing to assist.

[lordloz]

Thanks A13x - will be calling trading standards as well but grateful of all the support everyone has given here

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[lordloz]

UPDATE
Uship has suspended this guys account due to non delivery of 2 motorcycles i think but are no help in actually getting goods. Sending CAB letter demanding delivery & citing breach of contract. Sending via special delivery & will see what happens next.

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[demonloop]

UPDATE
Uship has suspended this guys account due to non delivery of 2 motorcycles i think but are no help in actually getting goods. Sending CAB letter demanding delivery & citing breach of contract. Sending via special delivery & will see what happens next.

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I think I'd be driving down to confront the guy, will a letter do much good?

If he's about to go bust (for example) I'd want to be there with a towing vehicle.

[lordloz]

This is still ongoing..... we are trying to engage the law in this.... very angry...

[ernestrome]

Get down there with boltcroppers and an angle grinder.

[Scepticalist]

Gotta admit I'd be paying a couple of heavies to go repossess my property by now

[anz3001]

https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/web/mcol/welcome

[lughugger]

Crumbs! I’ve just read this thread and I’m afraid that your sons picked a proper wrong ‘un. Is this ‘just’ a reclaim or are you still pending receipt of the Airstream?


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[lordloz]

Get down there with boltcroppers and an angle grinder.

great idea....if we knew where it was actually stored and located...his addresses are housing estates....we have no clue where it is........
bill of lading says collected from Florida but now we don't even know 100% if it's actually even in UK yet...

[lordloz]

Crumbs! I’ve just read this thread and I’m afraid that your sons picked a proper wrong ‘un. Is this ‘just’ a reclaim or are you still pending receipt of the Airstream?


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thanks to Anz for that reclaim link....

no lughugger..... we have no airstream recieved...

this is now a criminal fraud matter,
we have a crime no. a referral to police and further info to be given to the bank and to the relevant authorities....

i won't say too much more in case it alerts numpty to anything coming his way.....

not giving up without a fight.....

[lughugger]

great idea....if we knew where it was actually stored and located...his addresses are housing estates....we have no clue where it is........
bill of lading says collected from Florida but now we don't even know 100% if it's actually even in UK yet...

If you have the B/L you should be able to locate the carrier. If there's a container number I can tell you if it arrived in the UK or not. If there's no container number then there's a possibility that it arrived on a roll on roll off service. Feel free to pm me.

[lordloz]

Thanks lughugger pm on way

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[mr.chef]

Was this ever resolved? I followed it from the beginning and it would be useful as I’m thinking of importing myself.