Reply With QuoteYour post shows yet again just how invaluable this forum is for pooling detailed knowledge of the minutiae of vintage watches.
How often does someone post the above statement and yes it is very true, buyer beware, do your due diligence, buy the seller etc all come into play plus tons of research then show your findings to a few people that you trust and hopefully you should be able to make an informed decision.
Last night whilst browsing, I spotted this 5513 for sale:
https://www.ukspecialistwatches.co.u...-vintage-1976/
The more I looked at it the odder it became. Let's start at the beginning. When you first look at the images the watch certainly has the wow factor, everything matches and it looks lovely and clean. Then I read the title of the listing 'Submariner 5513 - SCOC dial'. Hang on a moment the 5513 never had a SCOC dial so what's going on here. The listing honestly states that the watch has a 5512 dial, quite why I don't know. The hands match and the bezel insert is a service replacement.
The caseback is a 5512 caseback, but quite often 5512 and 5513 casebacks got put on the wrong model, which is something collectors don't seem to get upset about. So then I'm thinking is this a 5513 or a 5512. Looking at the recent service card from Rolex pictured it is described as a 5513, so happy to take their word for it - if anyone should know it will be them. The watch is described as 1976 and Rolex have kindly put the full serial number on the service card, but checking the records cases bearing serial numbers from 4.4m to 5.0m were retained by Rolex in 1976 and have been drip fed out as service replacement cases and this one being 4.7m is slap bang in the middle of that run.
Therefore the true age of the Watch is not known as the case has been replaced with a later service case, the original dial has been replaced with a dial that has no right to be in a 5513 as the watch would never have been presented for SCOC accreditation. Likely the hands are replacements as they match the dial perfectly and the insert is also a replacement.
So we start off with a watch that looks stunning in the images, but beyond the actual movement it appears to be just a collection of assembled parts.
Buyer beware indeed.
Last edited by Wallasey Runner; 21st November 2017 at 15:37.
Your post shows yet again just how invaluable this forum is for pooling detailed knowledge of the minutiae of vintage watches.
It’s good old ukspecialistwatches again, our old friends, would love to know what their speciality is!
Very useful post Ken, thanks for that. This is why vintage scares me, my knowledge is so limited, but one learns from this forum all the time.
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Well spotted. And that's why I would not buy a vintage watch, except from someone I knew and trusted. An absolute minefield. Naughty dealer too.
I have no issue with people sourcing fat font inserts, superdome crystals and fold link bracelets to return their vintage watch to how it would have looked at the time of sale. In other words reversing the service replacement parts, but to my mind there is something deceitful about that dial. The watch has not been through SCOC testing and accreditation and therefore to use that as a selling point is misleading.
Someone buying the Watch may be influenced in part by that thinking that it is somehow a better watch than one that hasn't been though testing.
In reality we know that 5512 and 5513 movements were identical, some went for testing and others didn't, exactly the same as the later 14060m 2 liners and 4 liners.
Last edited by Wallasey Runner; 21st November 2017 at 16:14.
I bow to your FAR superior knowledge on the watch, but I had to smile at the ad'... "The past 5 years has seen an enormous increase in the value of vintage sports rolex watches so now is the perfect time to invest!"
No it isn't....5 years ago was.
Vintage Rolex Subs is certainly a minefield owing to the money involved.
Many old watches have had parts replaced and in some cases that’s preferrable to scruffy originals, but with Rolex sports it’s all about originality and having the ‘right’ parts; that’s the basis on which the expensive ones are valued so it stands to reason that a lot of watches will claim to be something they’re not. The rise in values will inevitably attract those dealers who are out to make a buck and take advantage of the unwary.
This watch has appeal, and it would be fine at a much lower price, but it’s not in the league the seller’s claiming. At a glance I thought it looked OK but I’m no expert.....but at least I know what I don’t know.
Having said that I think it’s short-sighted to dismiss vintage watches simply because it can be a minefield, if you look beyond Rolex sports and Omega Speedmasters it’s a lot healthier because the prices are lower and the value is less dictated by originality. Buying a vintage dress watch is easier because much of the appeal is in the sharpness of the aesthetics, I’m not dismissing originality but it’s less of a factor at lower levels of the market.
Spending a few £100s on a nice dress watch is a different ball-game to buying a 60s Speedmaster or Rolex Sub. Give these a wide bearth (unless you really like them) and the market’s significantly safer. You still need to be careful and do some homework but at least the numbers are (usually) a lot smaller.
Paul
Valid points Paul, I mainly wrote the piece in response to the number of posts over the months about the difficulties of the vintage Rolex sports market. There are some absolutely stunning examples owned by members on here and when the ducks line up and everything is right they are a joy to behold.
This particular watch caught my attention because I have recently bought a 5512 and after doing tons of research into them the alarm bells rang. We could almost do with a sticky on the subject as a few people would love to own a vintage piece but are put off by the types of things highlighted here.
I agree with your sentiment about cheaper dress type watches, clearly less risky and bought more for visual appeal rather than the collectors need to find something rare and original.
I do take comfort in the fact that there are some stunning documents to be found if you go hunting, which makes life a little easier. The one below was particularly useful for me. Mine as a 1978 watch scored 8/8 in line with that chart.
Last edited by Wallasey Runner; 21st November 2017 at 17:30.
It's not just vintage Rolex, it's all desirable vintage watches, Blancpain FF, early Speedmasters, for example. in fact it applies to all high value collectibles. Cars, Antiques, Art, even Belstaff jackets
The key is do your homework, then do your homework again, get advice from as many experts as possible, buy the seller, if you have any doubts be prepared to walk away and finally, if it's to good to be true, then chances are it is.
Most people would not spend £10k on a secondhand car without some due diligence so why wouldn't they do the same thing with an old watch?
it would be interesting to hear Mike, Heywood, Jason or Jed POV on the watch in question, given the Rolex paperwork. Personally speaking, if it didn't have a 5512 case number, then it shouldn't have a 4 liner dial. Simples.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
I must admit when I opened the page I straight away thought "that looks like its new"..didnt feel right but maybe it was hinted at by starting to read your thread but your checks confirmed that its a bit of a lash up, albeit a very good one that looks smart but for similar money you should be able to pick up a genuine watch with most of its original parts in place. Nicely spotted and researched! As for minefield, to a degree it is but if you buy from somebody that you know can be trusted you are most likely OK. I bought my 5513 off the first owner, he bought it new from the NAAFI store Singapore in 1968 when he passed his navy diving course..importantly the original warranty paperwork backed it up. The bezel insert has been changed at some point, the bracelet if a 93150 and was probably a riveted or folded originally and the crown is a service replacement but all acceptable updates to keep the watch usable - dial, hands etc all original. Most importantly though the guy who I bought it from had owned it for 49 years and there is the faintest amount of engraving left on the caseback showing his name (when I was working for the RAF we ALWAYS marked our tools...lots of stealing goes on in the services!) and I met him before handing over the cash - in fact he wouldn't let me pay him until I had seen it and was happy that it was as described. So they are out there..just have to look hard.
Keith
as always buy the seller. that advert is way over priced for a complete frankenwatch
The only 100% safe way of buying a 100% safe Rolex is to buy brand new from an AD or a reputable grey dealer.
If you want to buy vintage or even modern used, you really have got to do your homework to know everything and anything about the watch in question. That means hours and hours of reading sensible sources and asking questions here.
Even when you have bought it, you to get it in to Rolex for a service whether it needs it or not. If it is not as advertised you need to be able to trace the seller and that means not doing a F2F in a coffee bar or similar.
Either you buy it from a concrete building such as their house or do the deal in a bank where the place is littered with cctv and the deal is done via a cashier which protects both parties. The cashier transfers the money from one account to another and the watch changes hands there and then.
When I buy vintage I always factor an expensive Rolex service charge into the price.
Also if someone accepts a bit of "original" papers and a box as evidence of the watch being bona fide, then they are a prize mug. Box and papers increase the collectibility value but the reality is that they are a piece of cake to forge and right now today, there is probably some dodgy printer knocking them out to order.
I trust no one and I expect no one to trust me, so keep it businesslike and very formal.
Bit of good reading here How to Value a Vintage Rolex.
https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=459493
I’m an observer of rather than a participant in the vintage Rolex market and enjoy reading these insights, and learning myself, while relieved that I am not risking the money involved!
What have learned in the last few years is to specialise as much a you can, and try to spend well within what you can afford while you are learning. One brand has caught my eye in the last few years. Vintage models are a fraction of Rolex prices. When I bought my first one I knew nothing until members on here educated me, and I just got lucky. Now I reckon I can spot a franken and probably guess where it was made. I paid a bit high a couple of times and I bought one dud which wasted me £50, so nothing to lose sleep over.
I don’t think you can always ‘buy the seller’. Two of my three best buys looked a bit dodgy but I relied on my judgement, and some help from friends on here in one case. One looked like a peach from the off and I just had the confidence not to hesitate. The sellers were all completely unknown to me. Maybe it’s different in the Rolex world.
I really do enjoy the minutiae of these threads though, and Wallesley Runner’s recent coup with the porcelain dial Rolex shows just how much specialisation and expertise can pay off.
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Thanks Bob,Originally Posted by bobdog
That is one hell of a post, saved as a favourite to read through more slowly when the opportunity arises.
That watchbox in the first image is rather good. Who is this guy, not the same Philippe that I dealt with (my guy had an e on the end of his name), but when you look through his sold listings on his site there are some similar images.
No different fella Ken, this Phillip is a real high flyer, gets called in to validate the really expensive stuff,
stahly great guy , had the pleasure of meeting him at one of jed's and mike's crazy get togethers / drinking sessions :)
he owns and runs rolex passion report
He speaks very highly of you Al.
one of the few :)
these vintage guys are all great people from all walks of life .
once you meet them they are really passionate about the watches and
for the majority of the collectors its the hunt and chasing the piece is the most fun .
its just now its getting harder to find the new to market original owner pieces now than it was say 4 /5 yrs ago .
I’ve never really understood the famous line of “Buy the seller”
I get what it means but when the seller is armed with as much/more info than the buyer ( having done their due diligence) then how does this actually stack up?
At the lower end of the scale then yes alarm bells will ring. With the increasing rise in Vintage pieces there is plenty of opportunity to be fleeced by a very knowledgeable, pleasant and charming con man.
you're not paying for a knowledgeable charming dealer, you're paying for a dealer with a solid reputation, hence not going to rip you off.
A solid reputation from a dealer means you won’t have to “ buy him” you are making an informed decision based on their reputation and good standing.
For me it’s buy from someone with a proven track record of honesty and if possible talk to previous clients, anybody can make a mistake and sell something they believe is right and if it turns out not to be then you need the confidence in them that they will do the right thing. simples.
That’s very true but how does it help when it’s a private sale?
it's just a saying. the 'buy him' part just means its worth paying a bit more to a seller with a good rep.
There are private sales and private sales, I wouldn’t buy off someone I had just met in a pub but I have bought from individuals on forums that I have never met but I know them by reputation and some of those purchases have been quite expensive.
Totally agree, there are a few highly regarded dealers around the world that have reputations for sourcing top quality pieces and although they are not the cheapest, their name linked to a vintage piece would give a private buyer some reassurance if that Watch was later sold in a private transaction (as well as all other checks etc have been done).
I do enjoy these threads also, learning little by little. I’d love a vintage sub or gmt but think I’d only every buy from someone like Haywood or Mike Wood from what I’ve learned on here.
Echo previous comments really, as much as I would love an older sub or seadweller I don't know anywhere near enough on the vintage side to be able to make an informed or accurate assessment of what is right or wrong. And so I just steer clear and have learned to love modern and the benefits that brings.
I've always liked big lugs, fat fonts and sapphire crystal. This place is treasure chest of knowledge and advice.
10 or 15 years ago (and more) there used to be a far more room to learn along the way, buying watches with perhaps some issues, but nobody got too excited and these changed hands fairly readily as knowledge was gained and the next slightly better or more original watch on the ladder to vintage perfection was sought. With prices and expectation now it's far more difficult if not impossible to have this gentle learning curve and many seem to want to jump in with the most correct examples from the get go having gathered opinion from others to feel happy about what they are buying.
I haven't bought a vintage Rolex watch for 5 years or so as the prices are just too high for me to justify adding to what is a pretty good collection, fortunately assembled over many years previously. I started with Tudors as Rolex equivilants were over £1000 ! None of my first Tudor subs, including snowflakes were more than £300. My first Rolex was a full set GMT, Rolex serviced from an AD at £1400. Anyway enough reminiscing and can't really complain having sold a gilt 5513 in recent months and recently a spare insert that was knocking about for 4 figures. Not the aim when I bought them, but that's the market now.
Great thread and knowledge and to add to the list of additional parts, that case back looks to be like new with no markings inside, strange really as a Rolex Service would have resulted in the inside of the case back being annotated..........
There’s plenty think they’ve an original watch and havnpaid as such, sat looking at a bag of spares.
Unless you knowbtuebwatxh from new, expert or not, you’ve no idea whatsoever.
Wise words indeed, I think, yep we are all a bunch of idiots, best not to get involved.
Good spot but not the first watch they have sold with a mish mash of parts.
Well, mock all you want, but a member for ten minutes and ten grand on a 5512. Are you sure it stacks up? I’d say you’re five grand the wrong way, unless you can find a similar ‘expert’ to pass it on to.
Care to elaborate on this
No, if you’re happy with your research, good for you.
You seem to be poking the dog with a stick as per usual, if you have something to say please say it.
So is the implication here that these guys frequently either (a) franken up watches themselves or (b) acquire them and pass them on like that knowingly and without full disclosure?
Last edited by o u t a t i m e; 21st November 2017 at 23:35.
You seem to be the resident expert, as per usual, so fill your own boots fella. Personally I’d not sleep, but I’ve nowt to say which will assist in that.
Difficult to say, but it boils down to buyer beware. Watchfinder sold me the porcelain dial Daytona without realising what it was and it was listed next to a once desirable 16520 Zenith with a service dial. I think these dealers do make mistakes either way from time to time and their extremely limited descriptions do not help.
Worth paying this site a visit.
http://www.5513mattedial.com/About.html
No expert at all, but I do my research and enjoy studying the finer detail. It is a regular occurance on here for people to give a heads up when they see something that doesn't look right.
I really don't know why you are here, you won't tell anyone what you own, you criticise absolutely everything, you endlessly slag off vintage watches and as many on here believe you are just a banned parasite coming back in a new guise to irritate people.
If you have some specific detail that contributes to this thread then please be good enough to detail - otherwise please please go forth and multiply you irritating little shit.
Thanks for sharing the love and sleep well in the knowledge you’ve not bought a pup. But please, when you flip it, which you will, stick to facts, or you may come a cropper.
Given your knowledge why don't you PM me with specific details. Actions speak louder than words.
It’s not gonna happen. You’ve bought with confidence. If a few words from a banned member can knock that, you made the wrong decision.
I did my research and exchanges with people that I respect, all good. At the end of the day you could sell a turd if you tried hard enough. That Ed White of mine (which I thought was a damn good watch) is still listed for sale. Not sure why, but there you go.
I won’t be losing any sleep over my watch.
Why don’t you start a thread with something that generates some debate instead of throwing darts from the bushes.
Because he’s Sarky, he’s set out to cultivate a snide sarcastic persona on this forum and he’ll continue to live up to it. He clearly gets a kick out of this and the rest of us should try harder not to encourage him. God only knows what he’s like in real life.
Paul
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