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Thread: Just an observation from long term member

  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by bedlam View Post
    I genuinely don't grasp the purpose of those 'looka me and my new Rolex/Omega/Breitling/Seiko/etc' with the same standard model that has been posted scores of times on countless threads. If you have a newly released model that others are interested in hearing about, or a rare model, or a restored old watch, that makes complete sense. But beyond the usual WRUW threads the selfie stuff leaves me cold.
    This is the real issue, in that to justify a proper incoming thread you would hope that either it's a less common watch, or makes some effort with the photography, or adds some interesting information or personal experiences of the owner. Without any of these qualities, it adds very little and just takes up space. There's the long running group incoming thread for a quick wrist shot of a new arrival, and that's a better place for it. I would however defend any incoming thread that is more considered, and have really enjoyed some of the photography and information from some members.

    Of course this issue arises more with current Rolex models as the brand is by far the most popular, and we're less likely to find out anything we don't already know. But the divisive nature of the brand is also at work, when Rolex posts get described as 'willy waving / look at me / showing off', when silimlar posts about other brands would not. A bit silly really, on a watch forum. In any case, considering some of the other pieces on show around these parts, it would be some pretty mid-sized willy waving.

    I can see it's a potential issue though, if people see these kinds of basic shopping posts, and join just to add more of them, thinking that this is the right place for that. All this 'unboxing' stuff around the internet about mundane products bewilders me, it's consumerism as religious ritual. Not sure what you can do about it though, apart from starting and supporting interesting threads, and on the others saying, 'Congratulations on your purchase, perhaps use the "Incoming" thread next time'.

  2. #302
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    Quote Originally Posted by robt View Post
    FWIW it's probably not lack of interest per se. I personally quite often subscribe to threads I find interesting to follow the replies. However, if all I can add is "great post, thanks" I generally don't (although I will sometimes give a post a tactical bump if it's not getting any replies at all). Of course one of the problems I have is that for every good thread I spot and subscribe to, there are probably 5-10 more than I miss. Some of those might be ones I'm qualified to give a helpful reply to.

    What it boils down to is that there's an impedance mismatch. Posts that take effort to create also take more effort to respond to and fewer people are qualified to do so meaningfully. Such threads are always going to go at a slower pace than "look at my new BLNR" types.

    I think what we really need is another subforum that goes at a slower pace than WT does now, especially as the noise is getting louder.

    I have thought for a while that perhaps the best idea would be to rename/repurpose WT and M&W, which have far too much overlap when it comes to technical topics. So WT would be "Watch Talk General" and M&W would become "Horology / Technical". Mods & Wreckers doesn't seem to get a lot of traffic these days, and the name has slightly negative connotations that I'm sure puts people like you off posting more competent watchmaking-related threads in there, even though it would probably be a better fit than WT. If things like movement service threads were always posted in one place, I'd certainly check that forum before the rest.

    Or more accurately, what I'd probably do is go there once a week and check out any new threads, then subscribe to the ones that interest me and follow along as replies come in at their own pace. That would not change the fact that daily chitchat is basically split between WT and G&D. It's probably right that those forums dominate the "new posts" page (although I reiterate my suggestion that excluding BP results from there would probably make the forum a happier, friendlier place).

    Furthermore, it shouldn't be limited to just technical watchmaking threads. We can say "Rolex posts" belong in WT, but surely there's an exception if Mike Wood decides to post an explanation of the difference between two rare milsubs? That's interesting, somewhat technical, and I think belongs in a horology forum. Again apart from all the "really interesting, thanks" replies that such threads tend to attract if they get a bit of traction, these threads on obscure areas of horological history will tend to follow the same slow-paced response profile because of the small number of people qualified to contribute anything worthwhile.

    One reason I haven't suggested this before is that I wasn't sure what would be a good alternative - it needs to be clear what separates the sub-forums. The problem with M&W right now is that the line is far too fuzzy, especially as modding is such a tiny niche nowadays. It's no good if that line just gets fuzzier and posts are split randomly between the two forums. I think "horology" is a good category, but people won't be clear on how that is different from "watch talk".

    Just this morning I think I figured out a guideline to separate the two:

    • Watch Talk General - Is for sharing and discussing opinions, speculation and general banter about watches
    • Horology / Technical - Is for sharing and debating horological facts, both technical & historical

    Under this regime, modding threads could potentially belong in either of these forums, depending on whether it's "look at my cool new Seiko 5 Fathoms mod" or a "here's how I modded my Seiko 5 Fathoms". I think those two examples would also (rightly) attract very different types of replies, and go at a different pace.

    Thoughts?
    This sounds like a good suggestion to me. Gives the more 'technically' savvy somewhere more specific to go to where the threads will travel at a slower pace, giving everyone the chance to comment or just learn something worthwhile.

    Agree that the M&W nametag does have a negative sound to it.

  3. #303
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    'Consumerism as religious ritual'. That seems about right. But would tighter supervision do any good? It works because it is a 'light touch' open forum, you might damage things you like.
    Best solution: don't read stuff that doesn't interest you. It's a harmless, Likeable place for guys who like watches. We may be weird, but at least we care about something.....

  4. #304
    Grand Master markrlondon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by walkerwek1958 View Post
    One of the reasons I've stopped posting technical stuff is the lack of interest.
    As robt says, I'm quite sure it's not lack of interest. It's just that intelligent comments to technical posts are harder to write and "cool post" seems a bit lame. But within the system that we have at the moment, I guess "cool post" comments might be helpful afterall.


    Quote Originally Posted by robt View Post
    FWIW it's probably not lack of interest per se. I personally quite often subscribe to threads I find interesting to follow the replies. However, if all I can add is "great post, thanks" I generally don't (although I will sometimes give a post a tactical bump if it's not getting any replies at all). [...]

    What it boils down to is that there's an impedance mismatch. Posts that take effort to create also take more effort to respond to and fewer people are qualified to do so meaningfully. Such threads are always going to go at a slower pace than "look at my new BLNR" types.
    Spot on.

  5. #305
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    Has Edward of Swanbourne said anywhere that these new Rolex threads shouldn't be randomly plonked anywhere in watch talk ?
    Could he not give number2 some power to click them into place in the incoming thread, head Rolex monitor boy sort of thing and a special badge/avatar. It would solve loads of problems and give him something to do.

    just re read that above from Rob, Mark quoted, spot on for me too, Mike posts his dive watch Rolex thread he mentioned, how do I reply? I know nothing about diving. All I can put is wow cool etc but I'd be fascinated by it.
    Last edited by Karl; 13th September 2017 at 12:36.

  6. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    Has Edward of Swanbourne said anywhere that these new Rolex threads shouldn't be randomly plonked anywhere in watch talk ?
    Could he not give number2 some power to click them into place in the incoming thread, head Rolex monitor boy sort of thing and a special badge/avatar. It would solve loads of problems and give him something to do.

    just re read that above from Rob, Mark quoted, spot on for me too, Mike posts his dive watch Rolex thread he mentioned, how do I reply? I know nothing about diving. All I can put is wow cool etc but I'd be fascinated by it.
    Sent from My etch a sketch

  7. #307
    Quote Originally Posted by markrlondon View Post
    But within the system that we have at the moment, I guess "cool post" comments might be helpful afterall.
    This is a problem per se. I agree and I've had to slightly fugde a "cool post" comment to make it slightly more substantive because I hate that type of reply, but in the absence of any sort of "thumbs up" or "likes" system there may be no other way to (a) let the OP know that their efforts are appreciated and (b) ensure others get a chance to see a slow-moving thread. But of course that means that we are sometimes forced to artificially lower the average quality of the best threads, and that's not a good outcome.

    WRT your earlier point that nothing useful ever comes out of threads like these, I think we can do a couple of things that could be useful:

    1. Observe where technical changes might be helpful. There are plugins for vbulletin after all, maybe we could find something Eddie could install with minimal hassle, after identifying what the community actually wants and will use.
    2. Suggest pragmatic changes within the constraints as they exist right now. So let's assume that closing the BP isn't going to happen and moderation isn't going to happen - however, we already have some examples of community-enforced, light-touch moderation. Best example being the Friday thread. Simple changes can sometimes make a big difference.

    I think we just need to get things to a point where a significant group of us agree on some basic points like what the problems are and why they are a problem, then also agree on what a sensible solution might look like. I'm sure Eddie is far more likely to consider making changes if they are presented at that stage and not, "hey Eddie there's a huge argument going on about why your forum sucks, maybe you should sort it out?"

    Of course we all need to show a certain level of maturity to make progress, but for the most part this thread has been fairly positive and seems to be heading in the right direction.

    FWIW I've been involved in changes to Usenet groups in the past so I know that (a) it's not always easy to do but (b) changes can and do happen when there is general agreement that they are desirable. We could even have our own RFC :)

  8. #308
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    I think the key point is that we are responsible for forum content.

    I love the tech threads but can't add anything technical. That said, ask about old Rolex or parts i can probably help as that's my corner so to speak.
    Doesn't mean I'm not interested in other goings on, far from it, but there is only so much you can say on subjects you're inexperienced with apart from words of encouragement which are often considered fluff.

    I'm sure some really interesting threads could be started that would involve loads of people but there's a certain level of passivity that has set in with people moaning about Rolex but never posting anything alternative because they're waiting for other people to do it.

  9. #309
    Quote Originally Posted by robt View Post
    technical changes ...[that] the community actually wants and will use.
    Just to clarify this, I think one of the most useful things would be some kind of Reddit-style voting system but of course that comes with its own set of problems which I won't get into right now, except so note that it tends to create an "echo chamber" effect.

    To clarify my point about "will actually use" I will note that there is already a thread rating system. However, its usefulness is limited because of how people use it (or don't use it). Threads typically have either no rating, or are rated 5 stars. There isn't anything to indicate a difference between "100 people rated this 5 stars" and "1 person rated this 5 stars".

    This is one of a number of well-known problem for things like Amazon reviews too. Another one is that hardly anyone ever rates anything 3 stars. People that love something will rate it 5 stars and people that hate it will rate it 1 star. But when 99% of people are basically happy, but not happy or unhappy enough to bother giving a rating, the only ratings you see are the outliers.

    Hence something like a thumbs-up counter would be a more fit for purpose. But I'm not necessarily advocating that just yet. I just putting it out there to illustrate that a technical solution isn't necessarily going to solve any problem if people don't use it. And it's important that we first agree on the specific problem we're trying to solve. Then if any changes are made, we can look back a few months or years later and see if things really improved or not. Is anyone using the feature? Is it being used the way we anticipated when suggesting it? Does that usage actually lead to the problem being solved or mitigated?

  10. #310
    Quote Originally Posted by verv View Post
    ... never posting anything alternative because they're waiting for other people to do it.
    I think that's a mischaracterisation of why people don't post. There's definitely a motivational aspect. One good thing about the "cool post" comments is that it lets people know their post is appreciated. If you post on a niche topic and don't get any useful replies, it discourages posting similar things in the future, even if some people did appreciate it.

    This is one reason why I think a "like" system might be good, as it would give people that kind of positive feedback without cluttering up otherwise good threads with fluff. I suspect that if we had a slower-paced subforum for these niche topics, it wouldn't be necessary to use it as a promotional tool a la Reddit, so we could keep the current post ordering as-is, but still have a more useful ratings indicator than the current 5-star system or relying on me-too posts, which mainly creates a lot of positive reinforcement for the BLNR threads and their ilk.

    Something that might work just as well is to show a count of how many people are subscribed to the thread. Maybe even add a "like" button which is actually just a shortcut to Thread Tools -> Subscribe -> Default Options (without reloading the page).

  11. #311
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    The issue with 'likes' is that it rewards lowest common denominator content, that a lot of people kind of like, over truly interesting content that a few people find fascinating. It also amplifies the loudest voices. This is why Facebook has become a giant meme generator, promoting dull but commonly shared opinions like 'kittens are cute' and 'I like food' (ok, I admit the kittens are actually cute).

    It's a genuine and complex problem that hasn't really been solved yet. At least forums have the advantage that threads get bumped back to the top occasionally, rather than just disappearing in time as on Facebook. The systems we currently use for social media strongly encourage a low attention span and grazing for low level random content, over intelligent dialogue and exploring topics in depth. From this point of view, for all its faults I find a forum more satisfying than many of the alternatives. Like democracy it's the least terrible system we have.

  12. #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by robt View Post
    I think that's a mischaracterisation of why people don't post.
    I'm not so sure that it Is, but it's not something to dwell over.

    I'm not sure how like buttons would help tbh. It would just shift the complaining to my post got x likes and someones blnr got xx likes.

    There's no pleasing everyone due to the size and diversity of the forum.

  13. #313
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    Quote Originally Posted by Itsguy View Post
    The issue with 'likes' is that it rewards lowest common denominator content, that a lot of people kind of like, over truly interesting content that a few people find fascinating. It also amplifies the loudest voices. This is why Facebook has become a giant meme generator, promoting dull but commonly shared opinions like 'kittens are cute' and 'I like food' (ok, I admit the kittens are actually cute).

    It's a genuine and complex problem that hasn't really been solved yet. At least forums have the advantage that threads get bumped back to the top occasionally, rather than just disappearing in time as on Facebook. The systems we currently use for social media strongly encourage a low attention span and grazing for low level random content, over intelligent dialogue and exploring topics in depth. From this point of view, for all its faults I find a forum more satisfying than many of the alternatives. Like democracy it's the least terrible system we have.
    Good summary.The only solution to my mind is to restructure the sub-forums in order to make it easier to identify where the kind of post you want you read might reside. However, I don't see Eddie doing that any time soon.

    In a way, TZ is the victim of it's own success.

  14. #314
    Quote Originally Posted by Itsguy View Post
    The issue with 'likes' is that it rewards lowest common denominator content, that a lot of people kind of like, over truly interesting content that a few people find fascinating. It also amplifies the loudest voices. This is why Facebook has become a giant meme generator, promoting dull but commonly shared opinions like 'kittens are cute' and 'I like food' (ok, I admit the kittens are actually cute).
    That's not the only factor though. It's also because of the way Facebook and Reddit promote content that gets more likes/upvotes, so there is a snowball effect meaning to get lots of likes, you need to get lots of likes within the first hour. That tends to promote mostly lowbrow content, because anything that requires thinking time doesn't get upvoted as quickly.

    It's a fair point though that LCD content like kitten pictures will always get more traction than long, thought-out posts. That's a problem for places like Reddit too, and their solution is to group similar things into subreddits. When you have one subreddit that is only kitten pictures, it's not possible for kitten pictures to drown out other content because there is no other content. The upvotes are all relative to other posts in the same subreddit. Smaller subreddits generally have rules about no memes, image-only posts, etc., for precisely this reason.

    I think if we had what amounts to a slow-lane and a fast-lane then there would still be a big difference in the average number of likes between a BLNR post in WT and a movement teardown thread in M&W. But within each subforum, the averages should be about the same. So perhaps the average number of likes in one is 100, but it's only 10 in the other. The fact that they are kept separate prevents one from completely dominating the other, even if the difference is order(s) of magnitude.

    The other thing, going back to my point about motivation, is that it can be relative. If posts often get 100 likes and yours only gets 10, most people will interpret that as a bad result and feel their content was unpopular. In spite of that, 10 people liked it, so it was worthwhile. Again for that reason it can be unproductive if fast and slow content is mixed together, but if they are kept separate the system can be reasonably fair.

    In any case the lowest-common-demoninator problem is already an extant issue. That's why so many people are getting annoyed by all the BLNR threads (this month, it'll be something else next month but the basic problem is the same). In the absence of a likes system, people substitute their own by posting "cool thread", "nice watch", "+1" etc. In fact people often do that even if there is a likes system, because they don't read the rules/FAQs. So some systems take common responses like "+1", automatically convert them into a like, and hide the comment, with no moderator involvement.

    The problem with Facebook and Reddit is that upvotes promote content. The problem here is that "cool thread bro" promotes content. So we get the worst of both worlds: lowbrow content dominates, and lowbrow content attracts even more lowbrow responses.

  15. #315
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    Just an observation from long term member

    Quote Originally Posted by learningtofly View Post
    Good summary.The only solution to my mind is to restructure the sub-forums in order to make it easier to identify where the kind of post you want you read might reside. However, I don't see Eddie doing that any time soon.

    In a way, TZ is the victim of it's own success.
    Agreed, though it's hard to categorise a sub-forums in a way that it will filter out only boring threads. The 'I've just bought a commonly seen, current model Rolex from a shop and have used a phone to take a photograph of it' sub-forum feels a little long. I suppose a 'residuals' sub-forum might work!
    Last edited by Itsguy; 13th September 2017 at 15:23.

  16. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by Itsguy View Post
    Agreed, though it's hard to categorise a sub-forums in a way that it will filter out only boring threads. The 'I've just bought a commonly seen, current model Rolex from a shop and have used to phone to take a photograph of it' sub-forum feels a little long. I suppose a 'residuals' sub-forum might work!
    Well, my Gmail folders include "Junk"...

  17. #317
    Quote Originally Posted by Itsguy View Post
    Agreed, though it's hard to categorise a sub-forums in a way that it will filter out only boring threads. The 'I've just bought a commonly seen, current model Rolex from a shop and have used a phone to take a photograph of it' sub-forum feels a little long. I suppose a 'residuals' sub-forum might work!
    What do you think of my earlier suggestion of two watch-related sub-forums? The problem with lots of subcategories is that its hard to avoid overlap, so things get posted in essentially random places and you lose all the benefits of segmentation. We already see this with posts about movement maintenance: some end up in M&W, some end up in WT. Neither is right or wrong per se.

    The objective, apart from making sure the rules are clear about what goes in which subforum, isn't really to segment into "boring" and "not boring". It's "popular/fast-moving" vs "technical/slow-moving". As long as one isn't allowed to drown out the other, it should be a lot easier to find the wheat among the chaff.

  18. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by walkerwek1958 View Post
    One of the reasons I've stopped posting technical stuff is the lack of interest. With my limited photographic and uploading skills it takes time to put something together and it's disappointing to see it disappear without trace after a very short while. 'Look at my new BLNR' seems to be far more appealing than 'look at the problems a 60s Omega 565 movement can suffer from'..........I'm currently sorting one out that's challenging to say the least, it would've been ideal for such a thread.

    The forum is what it is, we can't turn the clock back and get back to how things were 10 years ago without major changes, but there's no reason why people can't behave better. Getting rid of the Bear Pit would be a step forward; I can't see why the more contentious issues couldn't be debated in G&D provided folks played nicely.

    Paul
    I'd love the see the problems you are having with a cal 565 Paul, love stuff like that.

    Go on...
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  19. #319
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    I read the posts and threads that go into technical detail with great interest. However my knowledge is so limited I have absolutely nothing worthwhile to contribute to that sort of thread.

    Reading how things are done really highlights the skills of certain people and it's a terrible shame that you're put off from posting things of that nature.

  20. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by robt View Post
    What do you think of my earlier suggestion of two watch-related sub-forums? The problem with lots of subcategories is that its hard to avoid overlap, so things get posted in essentially random places and you lose all the benefits of segmentation. We already see this with posts about movement maintenance: some end up in M&W, some end up in WT. Neither is right or wrong per se.

    The objective, apart from making sure the rules are clear about what goes in which subforum, isn't really to segment into "boring" and "not boring". It's "popular/fast-moving" vs "technical/slow-moving". As long as one isn't allowed to drown out the other, it should be a lot easier to find the wheat among the chaff.

    Great to see this thread has turned out so constructive and positive.

    What about vintage/new as the categories? That might divide the content roughly how people are hoping without offending anyone (ish)

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    EDIT - deleting my post which suggested a classic posts area. Which there already is, and I never look at! D'oh.
    Last edited by Itsguy; 13th September 2017 at 19:26.

  22. #322
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    There's nothing wrong with the forum as it is. Nobody gets everything, but if people weren't happy, they would leave ; ignore stuff you don't like. Do stuff you do like. None of us owns it anyway. If the actual owner wanted to change it, he presumably would.

  23. #323
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    Quote Originally Posted by paskinner View Post
    There's nothing wrong with the forum as it is. Nobody gets everything, but if people weren't happy, they would leave ; ignore stuff you don't like. Do stuff you do like. None of us owns it anyway. If the actual owner wanted to change it, he presumably would.
    I think people are leaving, or at least not spending time or posting here anymore.

    I've just been in touch with a guy today who was a regular on here and he says he's stopped bothering because of the negativity.

    Paul

  24. #324
    Quote Originally Posted by walkerwek1958 View Post
    I think people are leaving, or at least not spending time or posting here anymore.

    I've just been in touch with a guy today who was a regular on here and he says he's stopped bothering because of the negativity.

    Paul
    Burnsey?

  25. #325
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    Personally I would like to see more technical threads regarding different movements, servicing, innovation, as well as threads about saturation diving, using complications as intended etc. I would rather threads like this than the constant look at my new (the same watch as the last thread) watch threads. I do believe that's what the new arrivals thread is for.
    I tend to ignore the 'look at me' threads and believe we are all adults so can look away if we choose.
    I too tend not to start threads as I don't know enough and my primary reason for visiting the forum is to learn about a subject I have an interest in, in the hope that one day I will be able to contribute In a more knowledgable way. That said I should make the effort to start more threads about the aspects of horology that interest me. If people don't start threads we will have nothing to read but the look at me threads.
    In my opinion the BP has a purpose and can be quite amusing if used as intended but it is misused by a small minority of forum members who use it to chastise, snipe, stalk and generally be nasty to other forum users in a school playground manner, which is rather pathetic in my opinion. This does find its way in to the wider forum which can be tiresome.
    All of the above rambling leads me to believe the forum is fit for purpose (Feel free to go for it in the BP for using the term) if people use the various sub forums and threads as intended.

  26. #326
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinnlover View Post
    ....as well as threads about saturation diving, using complications as intended etc.
    Thanks, that's a case I hadn't given much thought to. Annoyingly, it doesn't fit in well with my two-forum split suggestion since it's technical, but not really horology. That's the kind of thing that again, wants to go in a slower-paced technical subforum, but it throws a bit of a spanner in the works for having a clear guide as to what belongs where. The easy solution is to create yet another one, but I think that's going about it the wrong way.

    It would still fit in with the idea that the technical forum is about facts rather than opinions, but the wording might need tweaking to clarify that it covers "watches in use", without leaving it open to "here's a photo of me wearing my watch at work" type posts. Perhaps "watches under stress" or "in extreme conditions", or something.

    I suppose not all "use as intended" cases are necessarily stressful though. I could imagine chronographs at racetracks etc. Although there's a difference between what amounts to a fashion shoot ("look at my watch, which happens to be near these cool cars / bikes") versus a technical post about using a watch for race timing (something it's pretty unlikely anyone would actually do nowadays, but you could imagine somebody recreating a historic rally with vintage cars or something).

  27. #327
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    I am against a WUS like format to watch forums. I think this forum has always done well because watch talk is all about "watch talk" not segregating watch subjects. I don't believe the same number of people who click on a subject in watch talk would knowingly go to the "Dive Watch" section to seek the same thread.

    I think people are more apt to stumble upon a thread in a general forum that they would not specifically seek out in a centric forum. Thus they benefit from something they may have never seen. We could take a poll from people (but Eddie hates polls) to see how many visit say a Doxa specific forum and I doubt many do unless they are interested in that brand so they may miss out on something in the end.

  28. #328
    Quote Originally Posted by jk103 View Post
    I am against a WUS like format to watch forums. I think this forum has always done well because watch talk is all about "watch talk" not segregating watch subjects. I don't believe the same number of people who click on a subject in watch talk would knowingly go to the "Dive Watch" section to seek the same thread.

    I think people are more apt to stumble upon a thread in a general forum that they would not specifically seek out in a centric forum. Thus they benefit from something they may have never seen. We could take a poll from people (but Eddie hates polls) to see how many visit say a Doxa specific forum and I doubt many do unless they are interested in that brand so they may miss out on something in the end.
    I agree. Too much segregation isn't good. I'm suggesting the minimum segregation possible that prevents slow-burn threads being swamped by the high volume, high turnover threads that tend to dominate WT these days.

    That's also one reason my suggesttion was to repurpose M&W rather than create any additional new subforums.

  29. #329
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    Thread 1:) Should I Buy - for all the quivery types on here with money to burn.
    Thread 2:) My first ever.... for the bloke above who's just gone and bought the Carlos Fandango Wind Racer priced at just 5955 grey market.
    Thread 3:) Anything else
    Thread 4:) err as per thread 3

  30. #330
    Master Der Amf's Avatar
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    If there were subforums in the WUS style, there would need to be a BP subforum for all the complaints about threads being posted in the wrong place

  31. #331
    Craftsman willie_gunn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil.C View Post
    I'd love the see the problems you are having with a cal 565 Paul, love stuff like that.

    Go on...
    Likewise, I really enjoy and appreciate the posts from those members here who have the knowledge, experience and expertise to take apart, service and reassemble watches (without parts left over!). I am also conscious and grateful of the advice often freely given to those of us tinkers and fettlers who aspire to do more.

    Reading about historical watches, the challenges of manufacturing new "old" parts, the diagnosis of problematic movements, etc is far more entertaining than yet another thread saying "here's my new Sub/BLNR/Hulk/Daytona/Speedie that I picked up from the AD today". Nice as it is to see people's watches, wading through pages of threads showing basically the same thing can end up being pretty tedious. Once you've admired one specific model of a watch it's hard to be as enthusiastic about the identical one that turns up a day or so later.

    Not to be confused, however, with those posts that go into the intricacies of how a particular model has changed over the years - I am thinking here in particular of Subs and Speedies. These can be equally fascinating and informative.

  32. #332
    Grand Master Neil.C's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jk103 View Post
    I am against a WUS like format to watch forums. I think this forum has always done well because watch talk is all about "watch talk" not segregating watch subjects. I don't believe the same number of people who click on a subject in watch talk would knowingly go to the "Dive Watch" section to seek the same thread.

    I think people are more apt to stumble upon a thread in a general forum that they would not specifically seek out in a centric forum. Thus they benefit from something they may have never seen. We could take a poll from people (but Eddie hates polls) to see how many visit say a Doxa specific forum and I doubt many do unless they are interested in that brand so they may miss out on something in the end.
    Good point John.

    I'm sure Eddie likes the forum fine as it is and I can't see it changing at all.

    Personally I dislike the descent from Watch Talk to Watch Picture Book but I guess it is the Facebooky times we live in.
    Cheers,
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  33. #333
    Quote Originally Posted by Neil.C View Post
    Personally I dislike the descent from Watch Talk to Watch Picture Book but I guess it is the Facebooky times we live in.
    I don't think it's the current times that are the problem, it's just human nature when you get a large enough group of people together, interests start to become more diverse compared to smaller, more cohesive groups and the influence of the lowest-common-denominator gets relatively stronger.

    It's been a recognised problem for internet forums for a long time.

    I agree that a WUS-like separation of forums is a spectacularly bad idea and every forum I've used with that sort of setup has been universally worse than this one, for a whole load of different reasons. I do however think that some very minor changes could improve things.

    Aside from the two-forum split (slow/fast) idea, I had another thought today, which could perhaps help. It probably wouldn't be as good, but it wouldn't require any changes. We could start a "Best Of" thread in WT and perhaps get it stickied at some point. It would need some clear ground rules about what should and shouldn't be posted there, including for example "do not bump this thread with 'great thread' type posts, or reply to to the links posted here".

    The sole purpose of that thread would be to create more visibility for genuinely interesting stuff, like Today's Zenith news. However, it wouldn't help anyone posting technical questions, which would still most likely be buried in WT before they get answered. If I thought that was the best solution, I'd probably have gone ahead and started one. However, I don't think it is the best solution and often weak solutions like that can become and excuse not to go further, so probably best to hold fire for now.

  34. #334
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    Visual content is key to liking, reviewing, and buying products. Not sure why anyone would be mad that forums are turning into "picture books". IMO it helps the brands we talk about have more credibility when we are constantly seeing their products on here.

  35. #335
    Quote Originally Posted by moorery2001 View Post
    Visual content is key to liking, reviewing, and buying products. Not sure why anyone would be mad that forums are turning into "picture books". IMO it helps the brands we talk about have more credibility when we are constantly seeing their products on here.
    If conspicuous consumption is your sole reason for interest in this hobby then sure, content marketing and astroturfing are great ways to help find fashionable sinkholes to pour your money into. Brands will certainly appreciate it.

  36. #336
    Craftsman bedlam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robt View Post
    If conspicuous consumption is your sole reason for interest in this hobby then sure, content marketing and astroturfing are great ways to help find fashionable sinkholes to pour your money into. Brands will certainly appreciate it.
    Correct. The Facebookification process makes everything into a viral marketing opportunity. The only surprise is hearing people defend that as a good thing.

    That alongside the forum as free-market evangelists who want us to believe nothing can be done about protecting a valued forum cultire and the lowest-demoninators are the market's will and must be allowed to do as they wish.

    Possible changes to protect higher value posts? Posts have a minimum word count. Quoted posts only quote text and don't carry images across.

    Just some thoughts.
    Last edited by bedlam; 15th September 2017 at 00:52.

  37. #337
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    Quote Originally Posted by bedlam View Post
    Quoted posts only quote text and don't carry images across.
    Regardless of how anyone feels about the quality of content on here - this is a good idea. There's no reason to have 20 people quoting 30 high quality photos.

  38. #338
    Grand Master magirus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bedlam View Post
    Quoted posts only quote text and don't carry images across.
    Quote Originally Posted by JP Chestnut View Post
    Regardless of how anyone feels about the quality of content on here - this is a good idea. There's no reason to have 20 people quoting 30 high quality photos.

    There's no problem here, just delete the images from your reply. Sometimes it's relevant to leave a single image out of several or more in order to comment on it. Having said that it is very annoying when several people quote the same poster, along with multiple images for no good reason other than bone idleness.

  39. #339
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    Quote Originally Posted by magirus View Post
    There's no problem here, just delete the images from your reply. Sometimes it's relevant to leave a single image out of several or more in order to comment on it. Having said that it is very annoying when several people quote the same poster, along with multiple images for no good reason other than bone idleness.
    Good manners to delete.

    Tapatalk iPhone app has an option to not display images that have already been displayed in the thread. I find it very useful.

  40. #340
    Master Glen Goyne's Avatar
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    Just an observation from long term member

    Quote Originally Posted by alfat33 View Post
    Good manners to delete.

    Tapatalk iPhone app has an option to not display images that have already been displayed in the thread. I find it very useful.
    Seems great. What is the option called? Can't find it :-)

    Update: show quoted image.

  41. #341
    Quote Originally Posted by magirus View Post
    There's no problem here, just delete the images from your reply. Sometimes it's relevant to leave a single image out of several or more in order to comment on it. Having said that it is very annoying when several people quote the same poster, along with multiple images for no good reason other than bone idleness.
    In general it's good manners to only quote the exact thing you are replying to. Trouble is, people are lazy so only a few bother. Also, editing on mobile can be very awkward. Agreed though that replying to multiple images (especially if all you are adding is "great photos"), is the height of laziness, even on mobile.

    I personally do not quote images at all if there is any other option that makes sense. However, sometimes the image is what you're replying to and not quoting would be confusing. It is equally bad manners to quote nothing unless your comment stands on its own. Can't count the number times someone has posted something like "^ this" when there are several comments above they could be replying to, all expressing completely different views. That's really infuriating.

    So ultimately, there isn't a single hard-and-fast rule that can be enforced automatically. Poster discretion is required. But see my point about people are lazy and/or don't know the rules (often because they are too lazy to find and read the FAQ). One solution is moderation, but nobody wants that.

    What can work, and is the usual method on unmoderated Usenet groups, is to have a FAQ with posting guidelines. One of those guidelines is about community moderation. Any time someone breaks a rule, reply with "please don't (whatever you did), see <link to FAQ>". Also banned is grumbling about "the forum police", since it needs to be everyone's responsibility and not just a bunch of self-appointed prefects with thick enough skin to not care about such grumbling.

  42. #342
    Quote Originally Posted by bedlam View Post
    Possible changes to protect higher value posts? Posts have a minimum word count. Quoted posts only quote text and don't carry images across.
    There are forums that do this. It never works well. Instead of concise, well-considered answers people start writing a lot of purple prose. You still get lazy responses but with "blah blah need to add words to get around the limits" tacked onto the end.

  43. #343
    Grand Master Neil.C's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moorery2001 View Post
    Visual content is key to liking, reviewing, and buying products. Not sure why anyone would be mad that forums are turning into "picture books". IMO it helps the brands we talk about have more credibility when we are constantly seeing their products on here.
    Everything you have said is exactly what I don't like to see on here.

    Liking, reviewing, and buying products? Helping brands credibility? Gordon Bennett! It's not a perfume forum.

    What's wrong with horology?
    Cheers,
    Neil.

    My Speedmaster website:

    http://www.freewebs.com/neil271052

  44. #344
    Grand Master number2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moorery2001 View Post
    Visual content is key to liking, reviewing, and buying products. Not sure why anyone would be mad that forums are turning into "picture books". IMO it helps the brands we talk about have more credibility when we are constantly seeing their products on here.
    QVC alert.
    Sent from My etch a sketch

  45. #345
    Grand Master Saint-Just's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moorery2001 View Post
    Visual content is key to liking, reviewing, and buying products. Not sure why anyone would be mad that forums are turning into "picture books". IMO it helps the brands we talk about have more credibility when we are constantly seeing their products on here.
    I am not sure we're the right forum for you.
    Well, everybody in Casablanca has problems. Yours may work out.

  46. #346
    Craftsman davida's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil.C View Post
    Everything you have said is exactly what I don't like to see on here.

    Liking, reviewing, and buying products? Helping brands credibility? Gordon Bennett! It's not a perfume forum.

    What's wrong with horology?
    But doesn't this forum do all of those things for Timefactors?

  47. #347
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    Quote Originally Posted by magirus View Post
    There's no problem here, just delete the images from your reply. Sometimes it's relevant to leave a single image out of several or more in order to comment on it. Having said that it is very annoying when several people quote the same poster, along with multiple images for no good reason other than bone idleness.
    I wasn't talking about myself, rather the behavior of others.
    Last edited by JP Chestnut; 15th September 2017 at 22:10.

  48. #348
    Quote Originally Posted by bedlam View Post
    Correct. The Facebookification process makes everything into a viral marketing opportunity. The only surprise is hearing people defend that as a good thing.

    That alongside the forum as free-market evangelists who want us to believe nothing can be done about protecting a valued forum cultire and the lowest-demoninators are the market's will and must be allowed to do as they wish.

    Possible changes to protect higher value posts? Posts have a minimum word count. Quoted posts only quote text and don't carry images across.

    Just some thoughts.
    Good points all around. A discussion forum should ideally be designed around incentivising more-thoughtful and higher-quality content that may have longer-term reference value, and leave the high-quantity instant-gratification material to the many other platforms that are more suited.

    Even the blind-faith-in-the-free-market cultists should be able to see the advantage of encouraging the creation of less-cluttered content that simply isn't available on trendy mobile apps.

    Disabling crapatalk would also significantly increase the quality of the discussions.

  49. #349
    Grand Master magirus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moorery2001 View Post
    Visual content is key to liking, reviewing, and buying products. Not sure why anyone would be mad that forums are turning into "picture books". IMO it helps the brands we talk about have more credibility when we are constantly seeing their products on here.

    What a load of b******s.

  50. #350
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil.C View Post
    Everything you have said is exactly what I don't like to see on here.

    Liking, reviewing, and buying products? Helping brands credibility? Gordon Bennett! It's not a perfume forum.

    What's wrong with horology?
    Neil

    I hope it doesn't become a perfume forum I will have to do a lot of explaining to the wife if it does.

    I do like to see what watches people are referring too so I don't have to google them but I can't stand the Mike Sandler thousand picture essay that follows. One picture should suffice to provide the actual watch for reference.

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