A morbid curiosity probably prevents him staying away.
My thinking is that, in short, if you find yourself concerned about how people you've probably never met are treating each other on a forum full of people you've probably never met, you're probably spending too much time on here... probably.
On a side note, it's time for a "Rolex and Tudor" subforum. We all know it, so should we just get on with it?
As you were...
Rich.
What, threads in watch talk you mean?[/QUOTE]Originally Posted by oldoakknives
No.Everyone here has a choice Paul.If you dont like what you see then dont go into those threads. Just my point of view
Isn't this what's being said about Rolex threads and/or any other thread someone finds boring or uninteresting?
If it's ok for the toxic slime dump that is the BP then it's ok for other threads surely?
Agreed, but playing devils advocate for a minute the BLNR is probably one of the most owned watches on the forum and if someone else gets one next week do we really need another new thread or could the person just proudly announce their new acquisition on the incoming / new arrival thread that exists for exactly that purpose.
Just saying
I made the mistake of checking out the BP a few times and felt Saddened by it.
I now ignore it including the back biting two faced slagging off of others (including myself) dished out on there.
Its almost as if they're all trying to prove their manhood or something in a verbal pissing contest, its pathetic and one of the underlying cancers gradually killing this once great forum.
Either close it down and burn the building or move it to a real place, face to face...should be interesting and I suspect far more amenable.
Don't bother trying to flame me as I'm currently struggling to think of a unit of measurement small enough to express how little I care anymore.
I allowed myself to become annoyed at a couple of chaps on here recently and felt I had let myself down as a result.
Thats not me and will not happen again so knock yourself out.....literally if you choose or you can continue treating people like shit and in all likelihood forget yourself and do it in person...then you won't have to knock yourself out...
Of course, there are still...so far more good guys on here than knobbers so I can only hope that continues and TZ doesn't become Knobsville and yes I'm sure there's a come back stating that if I left there'd be one knob lessgo on you know you want to...
Last edited by Orange Peel; 10th September 2017 at 19:54.
So if there's a place on the forum to be a plonker, why don't they stay there?
There you see, I knew you could do it son, couldn't help yourself could you?
Edit. I mistakenly thought you were referring to me, just re-read. Apologies.
The answer is its overcrowded so they're overflowing onto WT.
Last edited by Orange Peel; 10th September 2017 at 20:10.
My comment was not directed at you, but those to which you refer.There you see, I knew you could do it son, couldn't help yourself could you?
Seems in between swearing and bleating, you should take some time to think before you type. Addressing me as son, in my mind, puts you in the same camp as those you vent about.
Last edited by sarky; 10th September 2017 at 20:16. Reason: Edited following edit(?)
Please see edit.
Of course you're right I don't know your age and used the term in (perceived) self defence.
See...? That's how this works we become what we hate and you're correct, it does demean me.
Thanks for the wake up call.
No problem - just log off and do something you enjoy - it may look different when you pop back. All the best.
Ironically we have just unwittingly demonstrated what can happen when humility and decency rear their heads
Have a good evening.
I have just lit a candle for you.
Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.
You might still want to review the fruity language from a couple of posts back.Ironically we have just unwittingly demonstrated what can happen when humility and decency rear their heads
Have a good evening.
The very need for a section of the forum for members to call other members C's and such speaks volumes for some of the members this forum has. Never encountered a forum with such a level of animosity towards other members. It's given the forum quite the (negative) reputation around the net.
That in itself gives you options, a forum where everyone buys new items, posts photos and gets all warm and wet because their pretend mates say nice things, or this place, where as adults we have opinions and views which may challenge yours, thankfully our host lets us get on with it, your choice.
"Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."
'Populism, the last refuge of a Tory scoundrel'.
You can't have it both ways, you can't expect to be held in good esteem if you act like a prat in the Bear Pit. It's not a question of 'take it or leave it', people have to decide how they're going to behave and how they wish to be perceived.
You can't be Mr Nice Guy on the rest of the forum and behave badly in the Bear Pit.........not if you expect to retain credibility.
Paul
There's no reason why debates can't be held in other sections of the forum, having a section that invites and encourages bad behaviour achieves nothing positive. OK, some of it can be quite humorous but much of the content is purile vitriolic trash.
The more members who decide to kick the Bear Pit habit the better. Hopefully those who persist in posting their petty crap will become a monority who are perceived as neither funny nor clever.......... peer group pressure may prevail and the forum becomes a better place.
Paul
But you can have it both ways.Not all posts in the BP are from forum members that act like prats.
Its the part of the forum where free speech is allowed.
As I posted before If you dont like what you see in the BP then dont go there.We all have choices.
And at the end of the day its only a forum.Its not life or death.
I disagree Paul.
For example, I can disagree with someones view on Brexit in the BP but agree that Lady Gaga is the most amazing brand ambassador ever in Watch Talk.
If you only see the bad in people then that's your problem more than anyone elses IMO.
The BP is really a small corner of the forum, as burnsey once said to me ''its not real life'', people post in the BP largely on subjects that are likely to be highly emotive which can sometimes get a little fruity, however there is no compulsion to go there, yes the forum functions perfectly well without the BP, but because we have the BP this forum is likely to continue to grow, unfortunately the forum also attracts chancers, freeloaders, hoovers and profiteers who use the place like a free eBay, generally they have low post counts and make bugger all contributions to WT, personally I cant abide them, but I don't make the rules,
"Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."
'Populism, the last refuge of a Tory scoundrel'.
^This^
Everyone is entitled to start a thread on any watch topic they like. It can be Rolex, AP, Timemex or some rusty old thing they found at the bottom of a prehistoric lake. Topics are only repeated if there is an interest and a demand, so if a particular topic comes up that you find as dull as ditchwater, just go on to the next thread. Freedom of speech over rides what one person finds boring.Agreed, but playing devils advocate for a minute the BLNR is probably one of the most owned watches on the forum and if someone else gets one next week do we really need another new thread or could the person just proudly announce their new acquisition on the incoming / new arrival thread that exists for exactly that purpose.
Just saying
Also I have never started a thread shouting "Hooray and yippee I have just bought a BLNR" as I do not own one and I don't even want one, however if someone is over the moon after buying one of them, let him have his say. I would rather have a happy forum than a sad one restricted by petty rules of what you can and cannot write in about.
incoming / new arrival thread
is where the yippee posts should go surely?
"Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."
'Populism, the last refuge of a Tory scoundrel'.
Unless it's a grail.
Let's be clear here. What I said was that if your entire argument boils down to "I'm OK Jack" and doesn't take account of anyone else's views then that is, by definition, selfish. I am not accusing you personally of being selfish. Though if that is in fact your attitude, then you are. Ipso facto. Try not to take offence, none was intended. I am merely making a general point in response to your argument as you stated it.
I consider my point about the harm to the forum to be provable fact. You may disagree, but I'll set out my logic anyway so you can understand where I'm coming from.
Let's put it in socioeconomic terms. Assume a "what Rolex should I buy" thread has a value to the community of 1p. A seiko teardown like the one I posted before is worth £1. Everyone has time to read 10 threads per day. If every thread is worth £1, then everyone gets £10 in value from the forum. If 90% of the threads are worth 1p, then everyone gets, on an average day, £1.09 in value. Yes, I realise different things will have different values to individuals, but we can fairly assign a low overall value to any question that is easily answered by the first page of Google results, and a higher value to information that requires owning a copy of Watchmaking by George Daniels and 20 years watchmaking experience to put his words into perspective.
I have quantified the harm here at £8.91 per person. The figure is ridiculous and meaningless, but hopefully it illustrates the point. This is about the effect in aggregate, at large scale. It's not about the individual effect of one post. It's the averages that matter.
To turn your point around on itself, I've started a few threads before now on relatively esoteric topics. With a higher signal-to-noise ratio, I might have got more useful responses than I did. If you post on a niche topic that actually is related to the subject of this forum and requires relatively specialist knowledge, it's entirely hit-or-miss whether you'll get a good response these days. The reason is simple: the interesting, niche topics get buried in the noise.
And as a secondary effect, those qualified to answer esoteric questions are less likely to visit in the first place because of the low SNR. It's certainly been one of the reasons I've occasionally decided not to visit for a few months at a time. There may be other reasons, but this reason is definitely a valid one.
As a reader, I might be far more interested in the more obscure threads (posted by others), but because I'm not qualified to reply, I won't. Thus, my interest in the thread does nothing to increase its visibility. But if I simply post "nice watch mate" on a Rolex thread, that does increase that thread's visibility at the expense of all the others.
A "what Rolex should I buy" thread is going to get loads of responses because it's easy to respond to such threads. Again, my core point is that these threads are low-effort and low-value. They encourage a lot of conversation with virtually no substance. Anyone can contribute, so they do. Someone posts a question about pallet stones and suddenly it's much harder to engage. Far fewer people have that sort of knowledge. So those threads get a lot less traction. And because they get less traction, they are further penalised with less visibility, so its even less likely anyone qualified to respond will even see the thread at all.
Please note that I am not picking on you personally for having posted a "which Rolex should I buy" thread. I don't know if you did. I don't care. I'm making a general point and using that as an example because such threads are a common contributor to the background noise.
Finally I'm going to again reiterate my point that I don't think we should ban that type of conversation. Even if the thread is worth 1p and not £1 it's still worth something, and probably more to the OP than anyone else. I fully recognise that and haven't argued anything to the contrary.
So we can move forward, lets see if we can agree that there is in fact a problem here. Then we can move on to constructive ideas about how to mitigate it. Hopefully I have explained why "just ignore those threads" is not a solution, any more than it is a solution to the problems created by spam emails.
We don't need petty rules, this is a watch forum, not a traffic wardens manual.
If you don't want to read what some happy person has written, just click on to the next thread and then you will be happy as well.
Provided views are expressed in a civil manner there isn't a problem. It's the insults and the bitchiness that leave a bad taste and show the poster in a bad light.
Paul
Other social media doesn't help. Instagram is a great example - be a bit of a show off, whether it's clothes, holidays, cars, watches, or even the food you're eating. Just a snapshot of a moment. No need for great thought, or dialogue. People can ignore, like, or comment. The newer members need a little slack until they understand the forum. Many of us don't understand the rights and wrongs - I don't mean swearing etc., just what goes on really and unless you spend heaps of time on here, possibly never will. I've seen loads of (for example) BLNR incomings, but to the poster it's a big deal and his mates down the pub may not appreciate, but perhaps a load of watch nerds will?
To get away from the heavy arguments I'm going to suggest two small, pragmatic changes that might not be too controversial:
- Tightening up the rules about threads on extremely common topics, such as the existing rule about the Friday thread. That could cover "I'm so excited" posts (although detailed unboxings warrant their own threads) and perhaps certain classes of Rolex threads as well.
- Remove BP from all search results including "new posts". This way anyone can still discuss whatever they want in BP, but nobody that doesn't care ever has to see any of it.
Of course (2) still leaves the problem of back-biting that goes on in the BP. Cliques tend to form and gossip among themselves on there and it tends to carry over into the other parts of the forum without any explicit references to what was said, but usually something is implied, in a passive aggressive sort of a way.
Can we as a group agree that this is not a valid argument and stop repeating it? It does not make me happy to keep reading it.
See my lengthy post just above for my reasoning. Feel free to respond with a counter-argument, but stop repeating the same trope please.
Please bear in mind that my argument has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with whether posts are upbeat, downbeat, or sideways-beat. That's a completely separate issue altogether. I am in favour of us having positivity and originality, not one or the other.
''Happy person'' this isn't the 'Church of Scientology' its an internet forum.
Last edited by number2; 10th September 2017 at 23:40.
"Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."
'Populism, the last refuge of a Tory scoundrel'.
You may not be happy reading it but plenty are. You just cannot control the topic or the style of presentation or the frequency. At the end of the day, if this thing really does wind you up - find another forum.
I did read your (lengthy ? - not really old chap) posts and the only point I can sympathise with is the short one or two word replies but I accept that I am in the minority on that, so I either live with it or go somewhere else.
OK, then just click on the next thread and be normal - still a win win for you and everyone else.
I honestly dont mind how many threads are started, but if every person who buys a Speedmaster or a Submariner starts a new thread about how delighted they are with their new purchase then I think we will have turned into WUS and the responses will rightly be from the scripts of Bullseye and Reggie Perrin: great, smashing, super, wow etc
Whats the point of the incoming / new arrival thread otherwise.
Look at it another way, If 100,000 people starts a thread about buying a Speedmaster or a Submariner, then 100,000 people are happy, plus all the others who reply. Unfortunately Wallasey Runner may be unhappy but that is a case of tough luck.
Again if you or I don't like what we read, we can always go elsewhere.
Mick.
a lot of these threads aren't even worthy of fu##ing facebook, the forum guidelines and threads are there to give this place some semblance of order and to stop it becoming just a shallow social media platform.
Last edited by number2; 11th September 2017 at 07:37.
"Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."
'Populism, the last refuge of a Tory scoundrel'.
That is your opinion and you may well be right. However if lots of people are writing in with stuff that you disapprove of, for whatever reason, then like I said before, you either tolerate it or go elsewhere.
The kind of people that don't care about the content of the forum are not who I think we should be encouraging to dominate its content.
Eventually, if it gets bad enough, perhaps I will, along with many others (and those who already have). Of course, that is exactly the outcome that I don't want.
What I will say, based on my experience with other forums (principally technical ones like Slashdot, which I mentioned earlier) is that "find another forum" isn't a good long-term solution. If you happen to end up with lots of knowledgeable people all in one place like we have here, it's a fragile thing and when its gone, you'll miss it. People moved on from Slashdot, but there currently isn't anywhere comparable to early-2000s Slashdot. Everyone interesting left, but they didn't all go to the same places.
Wrong, there are always other options.
"Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."
'Populism, the last refuge of a Tory scoundrel'.
oldoakknives
I saw a relevant post you mentioned then you deleted it.Care to share again ?
Oh the irony!
Been on the sauce have we?
TBH I just decided I didn't want to be in this discussion any more. My post was just to illustrate some of the negativity.
I'm out.
Me too, the facebook element will be the death of this place.
"Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."
'Populism, the last refuge of a Tory scoundrel'.
Something which doesn't help a healthy tone is the knowledgeable members typically expressing their experience in a negative way that expresses no enthusiasm for watches in general, but instead just a weary exasperation with absolutely everything that deviates from their own tastes. The less knowledgeable members then take their cue from this style, quickly shedding their newby delight, and learning how to be severe and dismissive. But this isn't a problem unique to TZ UK.
Exactly the type of response that's spoiling this place. Accusing someone of being drunk or under the influence is ill-mannered and disrespectful, it's just plain bad manners, it's uncalled for, it's a cheap shot.
Play the ball not the man.
On that note I'm out of this debate ...........and getting closer to being out of this forum.
Paul
Bang on
Monkey see, monkey do so to speak.
We all, whether we realise it or not are setting examples.
I am not without blame here albeit from frustration and oft in self defence but that does not validate negative input from me.
So, if I've offended or upset anyone I am sorry.
If I have used inappropriate language then again I apologise, it demeans me.
I can only ask forgiveness from those whom I have caused offence as I am happy to forgive insult or offence to me, life's too short.
By nature I am easy going and tolerant and hate causing or participating in conflict, yet have been pulled in by what we discuss and become what I hate.
My bad.
I want to get on with everyone, even those I do not agree with, they with me or have much in common with.
It costs nothing to be nice and treat others with the respect you would expect from them but conflict and vitriol will always be costly to us all.
There will be no winners and if there were they would be the kings of an empty forum.
I'm off to play nicely now
Last edited by Orange Peel; 11th September 2017 at 09:09.
And we all follow examples that with hindsight we regret :shamefaced:
A strange and aggressive response, I opened by saying that I didn't mind - so no unhappiness on my part.
I do enjoy these threads of people buying 'common' watches when there is a back story, celebrating a birth or a special birthday or a graduation or even how to use part or all of an inheritance to buy something to remember a precious person by. The story is often more heartwarming than the watch purchased.
The endless look at me, I have bought a Rolex, I want a round of applause from a bunch of complete strangers threads are a little less appealing in my opinion, although sometimes it is funny when the watch appears on SC a few weeks later.
You no longer need a special occasionto purchase a Rolex. If I'm spending thousands of my hard earned cash, that is the special occasion.
The thread title did say hed got a BLNR, so if you're not fussed you just go on another thread.
So you need a bunch of strangers to pay you compliments?
"Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."
'Populism, the last refuge of a Tory scoundrel'.
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