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Thread: La Vuelta 2017

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    La Vuelta 2017

    De Vuelta a España 2017 started Saturday 19.

    The two main agenda points are that Contador is saying goodbye and Froome wants his first Vuleta victory and thus at the same time a GT double.

    I waited for someone else to open the thread but as today is the first Spanish stage ...

    Live coverage on Teledeporte starts in 5 minutes.

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    The first proper climb and Froome himself is shaking the tree violently. Seems Contador fell out.

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    yeah i reckon froome has what it takes to get another big victory under his belt,though he did look to be suffering a bit at one stage ...time will tell

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    Journeyman krusty's Avatar
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    Last I heard Froomey had a 2 second lead.

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    Currently only a few miles away from the end of stage 7 and start of 8, debating whether to go and get a glimpse. Some fantastic terrain for riding, in this heat and inclines tho...

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    Quote Originally Posted by a13x View Post
    Currently only a few miles away from the end of stage 7 and start of 8, debating whether to go and get a glimpse. Some fantastic terrain for riding, in this heat and inclines tho...
    It is very accessible for the public.
    I´d say go see the circus at the start and leave before they do to take up a vantage point not too far off.

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    5th Stage

    From beach to beach with a 175 km. leg breaker in between.

    Not a stage to upset the overall positions but it is ideal for escapes and individual riders riding in the lime light.

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    Weird but clever

    At first the Sky tactics looked odd, letting the escapees take >7 minutes, even losing the virtual lead but the ´sprint´ up the final climb was awesome. The final result is that Froome won a few secosnd on all of his main competitors. Impressive climb by Froome!

  9. #9
    That gap came right down at the end though, shows how steep those climbs were.

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    As expected an active day in the Vuelta. Escapes galore and great footage of hard riding.

    Again bewildering team stategies, most markedly Quick Step and then there was the utterly weird energy expenditure by Contador. It all suited nobody but Froome.

    Loved to see Marczynski win. That guy has worked HARD for his sport and is ever such a nice guy living/training here nearby in Granada.

    My hat off to Van Garderen. What bad luck; a nasty fall, a flat, another tricky fall and subsequent come backs.

  11. #11
    I just watched stage 9, Froome was in a league of his own, walked off with three jerseys

  12. #12
    Master MakeColdplayHistory's Avatar
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    I've been away on holiday and am convinced I set the 'box' to record the highlights programme each day. It appears the 'box' thinks differently.
    Because I thought I was going to be catching up on each day's highlights tomorrow and Tuesday while still off work I've been actively avoiding any news of the Vuelta so far.

    I gather Froome is leading but that's all I know. Can someone give me a quick summary?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MakeColdplayHistory View Post
    I gather Froome is leading but that's all I know. Can someone give me a quick summary?
    Pretty easy to summarise the last few days. A breakaway is pulled back by the peloton. Last 5-10k is an uphill finish with some muderous gradients. Sky team sets a fast pace up at the start and with last 1-2k to go Froome goes off the front (or at least decimates whatever is left of the leading group) and picks up 10-20secs on 2nd place and more on the rest.
    He really is on form.

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    Neat summary JP.

    Yes Froome is displaying great form and deserves respect for that. The dominance of the Sky team is a bit of a shame as it takes the shine of his preformance. Yesterday Froome finished rather impressively where he was beat last time by Dumoulin. It at the same time illustrates the ´problem´; Dumoulin did it all himslef, Froome stood on the shoulders of a a giant team.

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    Well done CF, Three jerseys and two tours, will he go for a third, must be one of the greatest British athletes ever

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    Grand Master Andyg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adrianw View Post
    Well done CF, Three jerseys and two tours, will he go for a third, must be one of the greatest British athletes ever

    Totally agreed and it makes up for coming second 3 times.

    All hail (Sir) Chris Froome, one of the greatest ever. Hopefully he might even get a mention on SPOTY.

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by adrianw View Post
    Well done CF, Three jerseys and two tours, will he go for a third, must be one of the greatest British athletes ever

    I don't think he'll go for the Giro until he's got his 5th Tour. The Giro / Tour double is just too risky and joining Merckx, Hinault et al is the real prize.

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    Well done froome dog!!
    No need for a Jiffy bag :)

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    Great achievement for Chris Froome and good to see Contador win Saturday's stage up a brutal climb.

  20. #20
    As expected not exactly plastered over the BBC news site

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    I hadn't realised that the Vuelta changed from early in the season to after the Tour back in 1995. Since then a grand total of zero people have done the double. He's achieved a feat that truly stands him as one of the greatest athletes of all time. Bloody amazing stuff and a shame it isn't more recognised.

  22. #22
    A brilliant race by froome and team sky. I think the vuelta was much harder than the tour this year as it had way more summit finishes. Also a lot more attacking from his rivals.

    Contador really animated the race and would have been on podium if it wasn't for the one rough day.

    I've resigned myself to little coverage of cycling in most general press. They are happy to endlessly report on poncey overpaid footballers though.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Schofie View Post
    I hadn't realised that the Vuelta changed from early in the season to after the Tour back in 1995. Since then a grand total of zero people have done the double. He's achieved a feat that truly stands him as one of the greatest athletes of all time. Bloody amazing stuff and a shame it isn't more recognised.
    He may be the greatest Grand Tour cyclist now but we shouldn't underestimate the part Sky play in his success. Would Nibali (or someone else) have won if teams were swapped?

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Kingstepper View Post
    He may be the greatest Grand Tour cyclist now but we shouldn't underestimate the part Sky play in his success. Would Nibali (or someone else) have won if teams were swapped?
    I don't think so, Froome has been consistently strong, if anything he should have been allowed to race Wiggins

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    Craftsman Rolthai32's Avatar
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    Congratulations Froome

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingstepper View Post
    He may be the greatest Grand Tour cyclist now but we shouldn't underestimate the part Sky play in his success. Would Nibali (or someone else) have won if teams were swapped?
    It's a rhetorical question. Without being able to see inside every team there is no way of answering it.

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Schofie View Post
    It's a rhetorical question. Without being able to see inside every team there is no way of answering it.
    What we can say is that although there is an individual winner, it is, in effect, a team event.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingstepper View Post
    What we can say is that although there is an individual winner, it is, in effect, a team event.
    Yes and no. I can't recall if it was last year's tour but Froome lost a number of key members of his team, being isolated more than usual, and he still shone through and won the race. Whenever his team have faltered he's had enough nouse and fitness to pull it out of the bag no matter how much he's been attacked.

    That said there's no doubt Sky have been the strongest team for years now. I'm sure I read that there was a consideration for team numbers to drop by 2, to try and reduce the effect of teams dominating races. That would certainly test the theory. Not sure I see it ever happening

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    I've watched the highlights most days and some of the live coverage on Eurosport and I as a non-cyclist I am staggered at what these guys put themselves through. Watching Contador on the climb on Saturday was painful as I can only imagine the effort he was putting in.

    I do like Chris Froome though - he comes across well and I liked his biography as well.

    It is a staggering achievement that should get more recognition than it does.

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Schofie View Post
    That said there's no doubt Sky have been the strongest team for years now. I'm sure I read that there was a consideration for team numbers to drop by 2, to try and reduce the effect of teams dominating races. That would certainly test the theory. Not sure I see it ever happening
    As an example of Skys dominance, they fielded five team members who didn't participate in TDF. Only they have such strength in depth to do this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dazzler View Post

    Darn.
    No doubt a silly and honest mistake. There is no advantage in it, if anything it is coúnterproductive, and they all knew he was tested all the time.
    So imo not the slightest tarnish on his rep or performance.
    Still; if no geniuine explanation can be provided, he should be treated as the rules state. Fingers crossed they can provide sufficient info.

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    Not a great situation. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out in terms of him being stripped of the Vuelta title and a potential ban... Oh and of course the all important SPOTY

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    Grand Master Neil.C's Avatar
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    Another one?

    Suspicion over Wiggins and now Froome.

    Amazing how many top cyclists are also asthmatics.
    Cheers,
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    I know too much of this drug is banned, however does anyone know whether it actually increases performance. Surely if it was a performance enhancer then it would be banned full stop.

    Seems to me, that the authorities what to keep this in the media, to prove they have a handle on matters, even if there is little supporting evidence that anyone has actually cheatered and gained an advantage.

    Froome is one of the most tested cyclists, yet why has it taken months after the Veulta to release this info. All seems a bit odd to me. A bit like the Wiggins non-story.

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
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    Master alfat33's Avatar
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    I used a salbutamol inhaler several times a week as a kid, until my late teens. I had bad asthma and it was the only thing that let me take part in sport. I was an OK school level cross country runner. I find it hard to see any performance advantage - it just let me breath like everyone else. Taking too much just gave me a headache, I couldn't breathe any better or run faster.

    That said, I don't know if it has a role in more sophisticated cheating.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huertecilla View Post
    Darn.
    No doubt a silly and honest mistake. There is no advantage in it, if anything it is coúnterproductive, and they all knew he was tested all the time.
    So imo not the slightest tarnish on his rep or performance.
    Still; if no geniuine explanation can be provided, he should be treated as the rules state. Fingers crossed they can provide sufficient info.
    If he took an extra dose on a doctors recommendation surely it would be documented.

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    They where talking about footballers the other day

    Edit

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/think...nd-does-it-he/

  39. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Andyg View Post
    I know too much of this drug is banned, however does anyone know whether it actually increases performance. Surely if it was a performance enhancer then it would be banned full stop.
    No, it doesn't enhance performance, and there's no proof that it masks anything else. The best it does is return an asthmatic to something close to normality.

    Seems to me, that the authorities what to keep this in the media, to prove they have a handle on matters, even if there is little supporting evidence that anyone has actually cheatered and gained an advantage.
    It wasn't released, it was leaked which subsequently forced Sky and the UCI to actually say something. Interestingly, by their own rules, the UCI do not have to release details of an infringement until they impose a ban.

    Froome is one of the most tested cyclists, yet why has it taken months after the Veulta to release this info. All seems a bit odd to me. A bit like the Wiggins non-story.
    Journos who interviewed Froome after the various stages of the Vuelta (and the one he was over the limit for was one of the harder ones) said he was wheezy as anything... coughing and spluttering after the stage finished. There is no way he cheated using Salbutamol, it offers next to no benefit and is guaranteed to be picked when he was tested, which he would have been being in red.

    My guess is that he was suffering big time, took way too many puffs in an attempt to get his airways open and that, combined with being dehydrated and generally exhausted meant the output readings were way higher than they should have been. A stupid but largely innocent mistake. Proving it though (and the onus is on the athlete to prove that they didn't cheat rather than the other way) is going to be tricky... This will run and run...

  40. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Meesterbond View Post
    No, it doesn't enhance performance, and there's no proof that it masks anything else. The best it does is return an asthmatic to something close to normality.



    It wasn't released, it was leaked which subsequently forced Sky and the UCI to actually say something. Interestingly, by their own rules, the UCI do not have to release details of an infringement until they impose a ban.



    Journos who interviewed Froome after the various stages of the Vuelta (and the one he was over the limit for was one of the harder ones) said he was wheezy as anything... coughing and spluttering after the stage finished. There is no way he cheated using Salbutamol, it offers next to no benefit and is guaranteed to be picked when he was tested, which he would have been being in red.

    My guess is that he was suffering big time, took way too many puffs in an attempt to get his airways open and that, combined with being dehydrated and generally exhausted meant the output readings were way higher than they should have been. A stupid but largely innocent mistake. Proving it though (and the onus is on the athlete to prove that they didn't cheat rather than the other way) is going to be tricky... This will run and run...
    What I find a bit odd is that a sick man, suffering serious breathing difficulties in a sport that relies to massive extent on converting oxygen and carbs into energy, still beat all of the best riders in the world.

    Presumably if he was not sick at all he would have won by many hours?

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by barneygumble View Post
    What I find a bit odd is that a sick man, suffering serious breathing difficulties in a sport that relies to massive extent on converting oxygen and carbs into energy, still beat all of the best riders in the world.

    Presumably if he was not sick at all he would have won by many hours?
    I've suffered from asthma recently the first time in almost 30 years due to an increase in cycling training, and it has not affected my riding output... it's just bloody annoying. I'm afraid I can't offer anything more scientific than that and obviously I'm no elite athlete. There's a discussion in the BP where some quite interesting information from credible sources has been posted up

  42. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Meesterbond View Post
    No, it doesn't enhance performance, and there's no proof that it masks anything else. The best it does is return an asthmatic to something close to normality.
    Balls!

    It’s a beta2 agonist. It enhances a few things, which then in turn lead to a performance enhancement.

    The problem with most lab tests is that they are reliant on giving single doses, either before or during exercise and then looking at the effect. Most do not look at a medium term benefit to the athlete.

    It would be the same as giving an athelete one dose of testosterone either just before, or during and exercise, and then concluding that testosterone does not provide any significant performance enhancement!
    Last edited by Omegamanic; 14th December 2017 at 22:30.
    It's just a matter of time...

  43. #43
    Grand Master PickleB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by barneygumble View Post
    What I find a bit odd is that a sick man, suffering serious breathing difficulties in a sport that relies to massive extent on converting oxygen and carbs into energy, still beat all of the best riders in the world.

    Presumably if he was not sick at all he would have won by many hours?
    I'm guessing that he managed to win only treating the symptoms of his illness (link):

    ...However, for the layman, the situation can appear confusing. How can it be that so many athletes – men and women who run faster and further than the rest of us – suffer from a medical condition that fundamentally limits the body's ability?

    “The truth,” Dr John Dickinson tells me “is that there is a lack of education on why athletes develop asthma. People do not understand that medicating against it helps them to maintain an equal playing field—but doesn’t increase their advantage.”...

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omegamanic View Post
    Balls!

    It’s a beta2 agonist. It enhances a few things, which then in turn lead to a performance enhancement.

    The problem with most lab tests is that they are reliant on giving single doses, either before or during exercise and then looking at the effect. Most do not look at a medium term benefit to the athlete.

    It would be the same as giving an athelete one dose of testosterone either just before, or during and exercise, and then concluding that testosterone does not provide any significant performance enhancement!
    That's not true though is it. Testosterone taken over a period has a progressive impact on muscle enhancement. Salbutamol does not have any such known impact. If it did I would have grown up to be an Olympic champion, similarly for other asthma sufferers. It's a short acting drug with no known medium or long term developmental benefits.

    And scientific research around substances will provide information to the governing bodies on medium and long term effects. The lab test doesn't need to do that, it just needs to highlight presence
    Last edited by Schofie; 14th December 2017 at 22:41.

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    I'd love to see Premier League footballers subjected to the same drug testing regime as Professional Cyclists. I bet they'd have a field day.

  46. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Schofie View Post
    That's not true though is it. Testosterone taken over a period has a progressive impact on muscle enhancement. Salbutamol does not have any such known impact. If it did I would have grown up to be an Olympic champion, similarly for other asthma sufferers. It's a short acting drug with no known medium or long term developmental benefits.

    And scientific research around substances will provide information to the governing bodies on medium and long term effects. The lab test doesn't need to do that, it just needs to highlight presence
    Thats a very strange extrapolation. Why would “you” grow up to be an Olympic champion? Because your asthmatic? In my opinion no true asthmatic is going to be Olympic level in any endurance sport.

    Some tests show a positive effect on performance - that’s all I need to know.

    Speak to the right doctors, and they will either say that it does have a positive effect on performance, or it does not. I would suspect that some would say either of those depending on who the audience was - although probably not now given the focus!

    Any way - believe what you like, it makes no difference to me.
    It's just a matter of time...

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  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omegamanic View Post
    Thats a very strange extrapolation. Why would “you” grow up to be an Olympic champion? Because your asthmatic? In my opinion no true asthmatic is going to be Olympic level in any endurance sport.
    Would you say Paula Radcliffe and Jackie Joyner-Kersee aren’t “true asthmastics”. What’s your definition?

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maris View Post
    If he took an extra dose on a doctors recommendation surely it would be documented.
    Even if that was the case, the maximum dosage is fixed for both any 12 and 24 hour period. Assume that the permitted level of salbutamol should account for the maximum permitted dosage so it does seem strange that he was double that level

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by trident-7 View Post
    I'd love to see Premier League footballers subjected to the same drug testing regime as Professional Cyclists. I bet they'd have a field day.
    They have a drug testing regime but football is completely different to cycling.

    A slow footballer with great skills can beat any other player who only has speed and endurance (like cyclists) in their locker.

    You can't drug up skill.
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