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Thread: Rolex Crown copyright

  1. #1
    Master Harry Smith's Avatar
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    Rolex Crown copyright

    I have previously 'threaded' that I acquired a ABP strap that I fitted to my other recent purchase the Explorer2 and it has continued to be a satisfying combo looks and comfortwise.
    However I have noticed that the shiny polished exposed bit of the deployant(deployment?) looks a little scratched when you look close.
    So I popped into a local engravers to ask if they could engrave the Rolex crown on that bit similar to on a 'normal' strap.
    The chap said he couldn't do it because he may get into trouble for infringing copyright. I didn't push it as the guy seemed a bit of a jobsworth but I am wondering how true that is? There are a lot of crowns around so why would that be a problem? I could understand if I had asked Rolex to be applied as that is obviously incorrect.
    What do the panel think?

  2. #2
    Master -Ally-'s Avatar
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    He has probably done you a favour.

  3. #3
    Master Harry Smith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Ally- View Post
    He has probably done you a favour.
    What, because the concept is naff or I might get arrested by trading standards?

  4. #4
    Master sean's Avatar
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    From another forum, and US-centric, but nevertheless a good summary.

    Patents basically protect an idea, a unique way of solving a problem. If you design an innovative new watch complication that nobody else had ever thought of, a radical improvement like the co-axial escapement, a clever new way to seal chrono pushers, you can patent it. A patent technically protects the idea behind a physical object, not the object itself, but when you copy the object you are stealing the idea, which is what makes it illegal. You cannot patent anything having to do with appearance or cosmetics, only function. Patents currently last for 20 years. After that, anybody can use your idea.

    Design patents cover the cosmetic/ornamental appearance of a manufactured object, but not its function. The usual example is the shape of the Coke bottle; the curvy shape has nothing to do with its function as a bottle, it's just decorative. Design patents expire after 15 years. Pretty much by definition, all classic watches have long-expired design patents, if they ever had them at all.

    Trade dress covers aspects of a manufactured object that are cosmetic and serve as a unique form of branding. Like a design patent, trade dress does not apply to anything functional. Trade dress protection lasts forever, as long as it's kept in regular use. The design patent for the Coke bottle is long-expired, but the unique shape of the bottle is still protected as trade dress because it has such a strong brand association with Coca-Cola. Trade dress protects you from having your competitors copy the superficial appearance of your products or packaging; nobody else can sell drinks in bottles shaped like Coke bottles. Trade dress is the hardest one of these concepts to describe. It's the thing that makes you recognize who made a product, even the first time you see it. A good example would be the 'kidney' grills on a BMW.

    Trademarks protect logos and names. They last forever as long as they stay in use, and as long as the owner is vigilant about asserting ownership. I can't start a watch company and call it 'Omega' or use the Greek letter as my logo. I can't name my watch 'Speedmaster' or 'Seamaster.' Speaking of Omega, Constellations were not sold in the U.S. until after 1956, when Omega came to an arrangement with Lockheed over the Constellation trademark (the Lockheed Constellation was a famous and very cool airliner). Similarly, Zenith watches were not sold in the U.S. for many years, until the watch company came to an agreement with an identically-named electronics company.

    Copyrights have no application to this discussion about watches, but I often see people using the term inappropriately. A copyright protects things like music, writing, artwork, photographs, movies, plays. You cannot copyright any kind of physical object. A movie is just the images and sound, nothing physical. Physical objects that the movie is on, like a Betamax tape or Blu-ray or a reel of film, are just the container/delivery system. A novel is the words. A recording is the sound. A musical composition is the notes. Nothing physical can be copyrighted.

  5. #5
    Master -Ally-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Smith View Post
    What, because the concept is naff or I might get arrested by trading standards?
    The former.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Smith View Post
    What, because the concept is naff or I might get arrested by trading standards?
    You'd only get (potentially) arrested if you were to sell it.

  7. #7
    It would be an infringement of a trade mark.

    R
    Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.

  8. #8
    Grand Master Der Amf's Avatar
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    Declining an invitation to make a fourth rate fake makes you a jobsworth?

  9. #9
    Master
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    It's possibly one of the most famous logos going, so I'd say the jobsworth was right in what he said.

  10. #10
    Journeyman
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    Jobsworth but did you a favour.

    Ironic retro 'Rolex' tshirts seem quite popular at the moment it doesn't stop whoever is making them!

  11. #11
    Grand Master Andyg's Avatar
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    its a Rolex Coronet. It's not a Rolex "crown"

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
    Friedrich Nietzsche


  12. #12
    Rolex refer to it as the Rolex Crown, I think they are the best arbiters on the matter.

    R
    Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Andyg View Post
    its a Rolex Coronet. It's not a Rolex "crown"
    So, a crown then.


    Albeit, by definition, a "small or relatively simple" one...

  14. #14
    Master Harry Smith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ralphy View Post
    Rolex refer to it as the Rolex Crown, I think they are the best arbiters on the matter.

    R
    So anything with a crown (or a coronet) on it could be an infringement of the Rolex copyright?

  15. #15
    Master Harry Smith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Der Amf View Post
    Declining an invitation to make a fourth rate fake makes you a jobsworth?
    Well tbh I was hoping he would do a first rate job but as he declined we'll never know.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Smith View Post
    So anything with a crown (or a coronet) on it could be an infringement of the Rolex copyright?
    Potentially an infringement of their trademark, yes.

    R
    Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.

  17. #17
    Master
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    Wink

    Think you were lucky, could get in trouble with the police... the bad taste police

  18. #18
    Master Harry Smith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jameswrx View Post
    Think you were lucky, could get in trouble with the police... the bad taste police
    Ha ha, you're probably right.

    I've just googled copyright/royalty free crown logos and there are hundreds and hundreds of them. You just wouldn't think it would you.

  19. #19
    Master Harry Smith's Avatar
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    And look what I just saw today I nearly stopped and did a citizens arrest


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  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Smith View Post
    Ha ha, you're probably right.

    I've just googled copyright/royalty free crown logos and there are hundreds and hundreds of them. You just wouldn't think it would you.
    I'd think it, but it doesn't alter the fact that using them could be an infringement of the Rolex crown trade mark.

    R
    Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.

  21. #21
    Grand Master wileeeeeey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Smith View Post
    I popped into a local engravers to ask if they could engrave the Rolex crown on that bit similar to on a 'normal' strap.
    I know what you mean. I once had a tshirt from Tesco and asked a shop to sew in a man on top of a horse playing polo, similar to the Ralph Lauren shorts I was wearing at the time - but was told no.

    Am I in the wrong here or did I bump into a jobsworth?

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Smith View Post
    There are a lot of crowns around so why would that be a problem?
    Use a different crown then, one that's not a registered trademark.

  23. #23
    Grand Master Andyg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ralphy View Post
    Rolex refer to it as the Rolex Crown, I think they are the best arbiters on the matter.

    R

    Excellent Ralphy, then perhaps you can provide your Rolex "evidence" to support your claim. The reason for asking was that I was once advised by a Rolex Techy at Maidstone that it was a defo a Coronet.

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
    Friedrich Nietzsche


  24. #24
    Master
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    How do companies who print aftermarket dials get away with not infringing copyright? For example....

    http://titanblack.co.uk/collection/rolex

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by benny.c View Post
    How do companies who print aftermarket dials get away with not infringing copyright? For example....

    http://titanblack.co.uk/collection/rolex

    I assume they just alter real Rolex dials, no law against that..



    Mitch

  26. #26
    Master
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    I suppose, but in changing the colour of the logo, Rolex text etc they are reproducing a registered trademark, admittedly over the top of one that is already there.

  27. #27
    Grand Master Der Amf's Avatar
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    Presumably they get away with it because before they start with it the dial has a coronet and the word Rolex on it, and after they finish the dial has a coronet and the word Rolex on it: the net effect is nil.

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Andyg View Post
    Excellent Ralphy, then perhaps you can provide your Rolex "evidence" to support your claim. The reason for asking was that I was once advised by a Rolex Techy at Maidstone that it was a defo a Coronet.
    Because when Rolex pursue a trademark infringement in law they cite the Rolex crown as their trademark.

    R
    Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.

  29. #29
    Master Alansmithee's Avatar
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    You should get in touch with crown paint and ask if you can have a license to make some limited edition crown paint watches.

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Alansmithee View Post
    You should get in touch with crown paint and ask if you can have a license to make some limited edition crown paint watches.
    Crown Paints use a different trademark.

    R
    Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.

  31. #31
    Grand Master Andyg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ralphy View Post
    Because when Rolex pursue a trademark infringement in law they cite the Rolex crown as their trademark.

    R
    Still waiting for your evidence. Anything from Rolex that refers to their logo actually being a crown will do.

    My Google fu has so far failed to provide anything as confident as your statement.


    From Wiki - A coronet is a small crown consisting of ornaments fixed on a metal ring. By one definition, a coronet differs from a crown in that a coronet never has arches, and from a tiara in that a coronet completely encircles the head, while a tiara does not.

    So the question is - does the Rolex logo have any arches?

    Last edited by Andyg; 17th August 2017 at 21:57.

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
    Friedrich Nietzsche


  32. #32
    Im sorry...
    Do you want to engrave the rolex logo on a plain clasp because it had some scratches?

  33. #33
    Master Alansmithee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ralphy View Post
    Crown Paints use a different trademark.

    R
    This wasn't a serious suggestion.

  34. #34
    In Scotland there is a well known ice cream company that has shops in Largs,St Andrews etc..which uses a crown/coronet as their logo.Apparently rolex lawyers went after them to stop them using the logo until it was pointed out that they had been using it before rolex existed.....

    Sent from my E6653 using TZ-UK mobile app

  35. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Alansmithee View Post
    This wasn't a serious suggestion.
    I know.

    R
    Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.

  36. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Andyg View Post
    Still waiting for your evidence. Anything from Rolex that refers to their logo actually being a crown will do.

    My Google fu has so far failed to provide anything as confident as your statement.
    I can't be held responsible for your inability to search, but it's surprising you haven't found anything: what criteria did you use?

    Tell you what, if I give you evidence that when Rolex pursue a trademark infringement in law they cite the Rolex crown as their trademark will you acknowledge that I'm right?

    R
    Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.

  37. #37
    Master Alansmithee's Avatar
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    Opponent = Rolex.
















  38. #38
    Master sean's Avatar
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    ^^^ But if Rolex did use 'coronet' then it wouldn't have had to refer to the crown as a 'winding button,' presumably to avoid confusion.

  39. #39
    Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andyg View Post
    its a Rolex Coronet. It's not a Rolex "crown"
    Love it! Pedant of the week award! (No, I'm not slagging you off, I'm a good pedant myself in the right/wrong mood - and your post made me laugh!).

  40. #40
    what about Rolex Crown Tattoos?

  41. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Smith View Post
    And look what I just saw today I nearly stopped and did a citizens arrest


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    Photographing people out jogging, nothing weird about that.

  42. #42
    Master Harry Smith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisparker View Post
    Use a different crown then, one that's not a registered trademark.
    You're right. I shall have to find a 'First Rate' engraver to use one of the many hundreds of copyright/royalty free designs available.

  43. #43
    Master Harry Smith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robert75 View Post
    Photographing people out jogging, nothing weird about that.
    I know, we should ban dashcams.

  44. #44
    Grand Master Andyg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alansmithee View Post
    Opponent = Rolex.















    interesting, but is this an official Rolex Document? Have you found anything produced by Rolex that states it is a crown?

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
    Friedrich Nietzsche


  45. #45
    Master Alansmithee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andyg View Post
    interesting, but is this an official Rolex Document? Have you found anything produced by Rolex that states it is a crown?
    So A Rolex objection to protect their trademarks where a)Rolex describe as a crown b) provide the trade mark filing (first image) where Rolex call it a crown and c) Rolex submit documents to support their allegations that it's a crown and they win the court case and the judge says "yes indeed that is a rolex crown" isn't enough?

    Here's what their own website says:


    APPLIQUES

    The expressive features of the face


    Rolex crown at 12 o’clock, Arabic or Roman numerals, classic or Professional hour markers in geometric shapes or shimmering precious stones in settings – if the dial is the face of the watch, the appliques are the features that give depth to its personality.
    Last edited by Alansmithee; 18th August 2017 at 15:13.

  46. #46
    I have it on good authority that rolex actually refer to it as the Rolex pointy thing. 😐

    Sent from my SM-G930F using TZ-UK mobile app

  47. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Alansmithee View Post
    So A Rolex objection to protect their trademarks where a)Rolex describe as a crown b) provide the trade mark filing (first image) where Rolex call it a crown and c) Rolex submit documents to support their allegations that it's a crown and they win the court case and the judge says "yes indeed that is a rolex crown" isn't enough?
    It never is, for him. There's plenty more whereby Rolex have challenged - and won - against others infringing Rolexes trademark but he'll just squirm around the facts.

    From one of the many cases heard by the Intellectual Property Office:

    AND THE OPPOSITION THERETO UNDER NO. 103752BY ROLEX SA


    16. Only the opponent filed evidence. This takes the form of a witness statement byDavid Cutler, who is the Head of Communications for The Rolex Watch CompanyLimited, an affiliate company of the opponent.



    17. Mr Cutler states that the Rolex Crown has been used for over 60 years in relationto watches. He says that the Rolex brand has been the pre-eminent symbol ofperformance and prestige in watch-making for over a century and all watchesmanufactured by the opponent prominently feature the Rolex Crown on the face ofthe watch1, on the winding wheel2, and on the clasp3.


    The Rolex Crown is the onlymark used on the exterior of the presentation box which accompanies every watch, on the guarantee card, and on the mounts used in shop windows to display Rolexwatches4.
    But hey, it's only the Head of Communications for Rolex representing them... so that's NO proof that Rolex call it a crown eh?

    R
    Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.

  48. #48
    Grand Master Andyg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alansmithee View Post
    So A Rolex objection to protect their trademarks where a)Rolex describe as a crown b) provide the trade mark filing (first image) where Rolex call it a crown and c) Rolex submit documents to support their allegations that it's a crown and they win the court case and the judge says "yes indeed that is a rolex crown" isn't enough?

    Here's what their own website says:


    [B]
    I will go with the Rolex Website reference thank you, however in marking terms it would be described as the registered logo or vector.

    But according to the definition it still ain't a crown

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
    Friedrich Nietzsche


  49. #49
    Probably because that definition is regarding something that's worn on one's head.

    No idea what marking terms are, but we got there in the end.

    R
    Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.

  50. #50
    Master mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andyg View Post
    But according to the definition it still ain't a crown
    Oh for goodness sake, give it a rest...

    Simon



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