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Thread: Restore vs keep original, To whom it may concern

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by yonsson View Post
    I knew when writing this that all wouldn't agree with me, that's why I started the thread. Try starting the exact same thread on a vintage Rolex forum and all will agree with my point of view, I can guarantee it.
    But when they develop patina, Rolex dials and hands don't grow mushrooms or end up looking like the shower cubicle in a student rented house do they? I think you are bit too quick to throw absolutes about. You are offering an opinion, don't be surprised or shocked if not everyone shares it...
    Last edited by Padders; 12th August 2017 at 22:17.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Padders View Post
    But when the develop patina, Rolex don't grow mushrooms or end up looking like the shower cubicle in a student rented house do they? I think you are bit too quick to throw absolutes about. You are offering an opinion, don't be surprised or shocked if not everyone shares it...
    Im not shocked, why would I be? There is no point to start a thread if it won't lead to a discussion, that's what this place is for, sharing opinions and discussing them.

  3. #53
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    It's a bit like the Ferrari 250s I photograph and watch at Goodwood each year. The one with the original dents, paint, cracked leather seats etc. are worth more than those which have been immaculately kept and restored.....not.

    The Rolex nonsense is just that. Many have bleached bezel inserts to get a look. VRF IMHO is/has some bonkers scenarios played out re patina/originality.

    I wear my watches and like to be able to use them for the purpose the were made…little point if I can’t read the time. Bit like a painting….needs to be cleaned from time to time, retouched etc. Otherwise over the years you won’t see anything.

    Arguably putting NOS dials, hands etc means the watch is not original, reluming (on the assumption it is not a big job as per the some of the photos) the parts are still original.

    Anyway my 2 pence worth.
    Last edited by gerard; 12th August 2017 at 22:20.

  4. #54
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    You didn't start a thread to open discussion, far as I can tell, although it's turned into one because I think many see it more nuanced than you do and don't really see the point in comparing Seiko to Rolex, especially the vintage scene in the context of this thread.

    You basically came across as some kind of authority on vintage Seiko telling others what they should or should not do with their watches. Maybe the odd 'imo' wouldn't have hurt? Plus I seem to remember you believed a 6306 dial was aftermarket not long ago when a member here bought one or maybe it was the hands..Either way you had known collectors saying otherwise and you didn't really know did you.

    'Patina always beats relume', you said, 'always'. Not exactly open to discussion that, is it... And yet you still, having been consistently given differing, valid opinions, come across as arrogant and basically ignored the points of view of people IN the actual Seiko community.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodo View Post
    You didn't start a thread to open discussion, far as I can tell, although it's turned into one because I think many see it more nuanced than you do and don't really see the point in comparing Seiko to Rolex, especially the vintage scene in the context of this thread.

    You basically came across as some kind of authority on vintage Seiko telling others what they should or should not do with their watches. Maybe the odd 'imo' wouldn't have hurt? Plus I seem to remember you believed a 6306 dial was aftermarket not long ago when a member here bought one or maybe it was the hands..Either way you had known collectors saying otherwise and you didn't really know did you.

    'Patina always beats relume', you said, 'always'. Not exactly open to discussion that, is it... And yet you still, having been consistently given differing, valid opinions, come across as arrogant and basically ignored the points of view of people IN the actual Seiko community.
    So your point is? That I'm arrogant? There are no truths of course, I just speak my mind. If you don't agree, then fine but I'm not going to sugarcoat my opinions with "imho". Regarding the 6306, I don't recall that one, faults happen of course.

    My comparison to Rolex is because the Rolex vintage community is the community which takes the originality aspect furthest.

  6. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by sepsonto View Post
    Totally agree with OP, and why I've never managed to find a 6105/6217/6159 etc etc I'd buy as everyone seems to instantly relume them.

    However you want to cut it, the 6215 shown is a Seiko by Duncan, not a Seiko by Seiko.

    IMHO.
    So you've never found a 6105/6217/6159 you would buy. I've got plenty of all of those that have not been relumed. I guess you're not looking hard enough.

    So my 6215 is now not a genuine Seiko just because I has a replacement insert. I guess you'll never own one if those either because of the high price you'd have to pay for even a half decent example.

    You don't have much of a Seiko diver collection I guess.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by yonsson View Post
    So your point is? That I'm arrogant? There are no truths of course, I just speak my mind. If you don't agree, then fine but I'm not going to sugarcoat my opinions with "imho". Regarding the 6306, I don't recall that one, faults happen of course.

    My comparison to Rolex is because the Rolex vintage community is the community which takes the originality aspect furthest.
    One who tries to shove his opinions down the throats of others while refusing to acknowledge or engage with dissenting views sounds pretty arrogant to me. Or blinkered. Or daft. Take your pick mate.
    Last edited by Padders; 12th August 2017 at 23:12.

  8. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Padders View Post
    One who tries to shove his opinions down the throats of others while refusing to acknowledge or engage with dissenting views sounds pretty arrogant to me. Or blinkered. Or daft. Take your pick mate.
    I think that is harsh to be honest.

    He is right that certain watches are more valuable left with damaged but totally original parts.

    My point is that this value perception is translated by some as superior aesthetics, which is what I disagree with. The more valuable items are not necessarily more beautiful than lesser valuable items.



    Mitch

  9. #59
    All watches have a value. There is no doubt a totally original watch will always command a value higher than one that has been relumed or has aftermarket parts. That's obvious to anyone. To say a watch is worthless if it's had any repair is ridiculous. This thread is proving nothing.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by yonsson View Post
    ... if the choice is between mold and relume/AM parts, then mold is preferable.
    Any argument that leads to the conclusion "then mold is preferable" clearly has a fundamental flaw in it, possibly several.

    Quote Originally Posted by yonsson View Post
    ...the Rolex vintage community is the community which takes the originality aspect furthest.
    Appealing to the logic of the watch community with the collective most fanatically extreme view is asking a bit much of the rest of us. Why should we accept their groupthink opinion as the correct one?

    Can you answer me this, if you believe that wear and damage are desirable aspects of a collectible, why it is that restoration of non-watch items (furniture, motor vehicles, aircraft, boats, steam locomotives, artwork, etc) focuses on making them look and function as well as they possibly can (or could have)? What is it that's exceptionlal about watches?

    And I ask this in complete confidence that nothing anyone can say will affect your firmly held opinion in any way whatever.

  11. #61
    Mould is preferable.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingstepper View Post
    Mould is preferable.
    I can spell mould correctly, but I was quoting yonsson's American spelling.

    Also, ewww.

  13. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by yonsson View Post
    So your point is? That I'm arrogant? There are no truths of course, I just speak my mind. If you don't agree, then fine but I'm not going to sugarcoat my opinions with "imho". Regarding the 6306, I don't recall that one, faults happen of course.

    My comparison to Rolex is because the Rolex vintage community is the community which takes the originality aspect furthest.
    Well i think u tried to speak for all of us and insulted many with your very narrow view of what u perceive is the only way.....nothing is absolute....Jim's watch that has been lovingly restored by Duncan anyone would love to have and if he ever decided to sell it...would have no problem selling it....hey i love all original untouched watches....but here in the real world...most of us are not independently wealthy and can find pristine examples....we all try to find the best ones available and if they need a little help..,we do that too....but to bash others and say their hard work and money was in vain and worth nothing is a insult to us all.....we all have opinions just like buttholes ...everyone has one ....but it does not mean we need to be rude to others either...you have a opinion and u are more than entitled to it....i think any further discussion will not change anything....God Bless,John

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    Last edited by jringo8769; 13th August 2017 at 02:56.

  14. #64
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    Interesting read thanks and I feel with Seiko it's a case by case scenario. Some do require sympathetic restoration, and some don't. I enjoy both for the most part and in fact, enjoy a nicely restored Rolex or Heuer or any brand for that matter but love seeing well used, enjoyed and "knackered" old Subs just as much.

  15. #65
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    I've had a few lower end vintage 7458's and kept only the one - the mould on the hands etc has just bugged the hell out of me (and mismatched dial and hand patina) I'd consider a sympathetic hand touch up to (match the dial ) or even a sympathetic dial relume- the 'dirty' hands just do nothing for me and make me not want to wear a peice.
    As always on here each to his own and that's what makes the forum the place it is
    This to me is perfect 100% original but in this condition not easy to come by-
    7458 by biglewie, on Flickr

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by jringo8769 View Post
    Well i think u tried to speak for all of us and insulted many with your very narrow view of what u perceive is the only way.....nothing is absolute....Jim's watch that has been lovingly restored by Duncan anyone would love to have and if he ever decided to sell it...would have no problem selling it....hey i love all original untouched watches....but here in the real world...most of us are not independently wealthy and can find pristine examples....we all try to find the best ones available and if they need a little help..,we do that too....but to bash others and say their hard work and money was in vain and worth nothing is a insult to us all.....we all have opinions just like buttholes ...everyone has one ....but it does not mean we need to be rude to others either...you have a opinion and u are more than entitled to it....i think any further discussion will not change anything....God Bless,John
    People take opinions on the internet too serious, to not agree on the work done is not a personal insult, it's an opinion on the work done. I have sent watches to Duncan and I consider him the best in the business, especially when it comes to vintage SEIKOs, that's why I sent my 6159 to him when it needed work done.

    I didn't bash the 6215 but if you upload a picture in this thread where restoration or no restoration is the topic, then why wouldn't I comment if I think the restoration went too far? I love TZUK and I have obviously been here for 7 years but sometimes the "pat on the back" mentality is pretty ridiculous, this is very apparent when people sell watches on the sales corner without spelling out the AM-parts or the faults of the watches.

    So I stand by my previous opinion that the very rare original bezel shouldn't have been swapped, I do not however consider this a personal insult to the owner or Duncan, it was a decision they made and I would have made another decision, so what? I'm not saying my point of view is the law but if you open up for comments, then why not comment?

  17. #67
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    The 6215-7000 I serviced looked like this when it arrived to me, Jim didn't have much choice when it came sorting out the bezel as the insert had been changed for an SKX011 one by the previous owner. In cases like these the only option is replacement with a remanufactured part unless you happen to have a NOS one tucked away.



    Contrary to popular belief I'm reasonably pragmatic about keeping things original, the dial and hands the Bodo posted for example I'd have no qualms about cleaning and reluming as they are roached.



    However at the end of day it doesn't really matter what I think, if a customer wants work doing it's their watch, I can only advise. I've done plenty of dial refinishes, relumes and polishing I wouldn't have done if I owned the watch, at the end of the day though the customer is happy and that's what I strive to ensure.

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thewatchbloke View Post
    The 6215-7000 I serviced looked like this when it arrived to me, Jim didn't have much choice when it came sorting out the bezel as the insert had been changed for an SKX011 one by the previous owner. In cases like these the only option is replacement with a remanufactured part unless you happen to have a NOS one tucked away.


    Thats a completely different story than previously posted. :)
    If that were the options, then I would have swapped it for the AM which is closer looking to the original.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thewatchbloke View Post
    However at the end of day it doesn't really matter what I think, if a customer wants work doing it's their watch, I can only advise. I've done plenty of dial refinishes, relumes and polishing I wouldn't have done if I owned the watch, at the end of the day though the customer is happy and that's what I strive to ensure.
    Of course. The quarrel I have with some of the OTHER watchmakers is they seem to recommend relume as a standard, you can clearly see that the watches coming back from certain places have a very large frequency of being relumed.

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thewatchbloke View Post

    Contrary to popular belief I'm reasonably pragmatic about keeping things original, the dial and hands the Bodo posted for example I'd have no qualms about cleaning and reluming as they are roached.


    I completely agree with this. The above dial is horrendous, this is not patina, this is just a rotting dial that looks ugly. If not cleaned, the mould will keep developing and eventually the whole dial will rott away. What is the point of wearing such watch? Yes, it maybe original but looks unpleasant.

    Now I like the look of old watches with faded bezels, creamy lume dots and hands and faded dials. But I cannot accept that black spots and mouldy patches look better than a properly cleaned and relumed dial. Well the relume job the OP images was horrible, but so was the look of the dial with black spots.

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by seffrican View Post
    Can you answer me this, if you believe that wear and damage are desirable aspects of a collectible, why it is that restoration of non-watch items (furniture, motor vehicles, aircraft, boats, steam locomotives, artwork, etc) focuses on making them look and function as well as they possibly can (or could have)? What is it that's exceptionlal about watches?
    *Crickets*

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mitch View Post
    ...

    My point is that this value perception is translated by some as superior aesthetics, which is what I disagree with. The more valuable items are not necessarily more beautiful than lesser valuable items.

    Mitch
    I see where you are going with this, but I guess it depends on the individual example. For instance, I'd argue that and old maxi dial sub or 1016 Explorer with creamy lume genuinely does look more appealing from an aesthetic point of view. And yet try to create that look in a new watch, and it can turn it into a homage that feels less honest. Clearly we are not just looking at aesthetics, it's the whole story, and originality can be part of that story too as the OP is suggesting.

    In some cases it may be hard to say something looks objectively more beautiful, if there even is such a thing, but it does look more desirable and 'cooler' for want of a better word. Attractiveness is complex, it's not just beauty, and it can be influenced by what you know. It's true that value can play a part, as can the logo on the dial. I'm not sure we ever judge a watch just by its aesthetic appeal alone in the end, it's desirability does however create a kind of aura and we literally start to see it differently.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim W View Post
    ...
    So my 6215 is now not a genuine Seiko just because I has a replacement insert. I guess you'll never own one if those either because of the high price you'd have to pay for even a half decent example.
    You never really own a Seiko, you just look after it until it rots...

  22. #72
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    With Seiko's I own the mould thing does eventually change or die (after drying) and created a totally different look. I have a 62MAS which probably had mould in the 80's! It's now a type of brown consistent tinge to the lume.

    Doesn't mould need moisture to grow? Pretty sure it does so once the watch is serviced and dry and resealed I can't imagine it growing like mad under there eating the dial.

    I think if mould is growing you need to be getting rid of the moisture really. I have some old hands which I may try something on. I've wondered whether bleaching them would lessen the colour of the mould.

  23. #73
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    Or it's a daini version of the 62mas?
    Have you a picture James?

  24. #74
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    Here is a better example, my old 62Mas. You can clearly see the mould, would you relume it or keep it original?
    i did choose to relume the bezel insert since it's reversible but I didn't dream of destroying the original lume.


  25. #75
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    I'd have tidied that up a bit myself. I think it's all relative and you've not got a lot of mould going on there, pegwood on the 62MAS indices cleans them up really well. Most of the lacquer is flaking and removing the rest gets them quite nice. Would personally do that and pick the mould off without re-luming.

    Not a dani Guy, just been through the wars.


    My other 62MAS has some current mould so I might see if I can tidy it better. I already used pegwood on the indices and they're pretty good now. Bleach near a 50 year old dial sound risky haha! Cillit Bang and the lacquer's gone!
    Last edited by jameswrx; 13th August 2017 at 12:22.

  26. #76
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    Good thread/discussion.
    I think this article has some general truths in it on this topic: https://www.fratellowatches.com/vint...t-summer-2017/

    I picked up this SP450 a while back,



    Lume on hands/dial is a VG match but the hands have a faint lume to them if exposed to light whilst the dial is 'dead', so I must conclude that the hands have been relumed sympathetically at some point. Whilst I don't cherish it as much as a complete original I am hapy with it and believe it was done for a reason by a previous owner.

    When a relume or swap to AM parts should be done will always be a subjective matter pending owner and watch and no hard truths can be universally stated.

  27. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by yonsson View Post

    Here is a better example, my old 62Mas. You can clearly see the mould, would you relume it or keep it original?
    i did choose to relume the bezel insert since it's reversible but I didn't dream of destroying the original lume.

    Relume it bright red...



    I'd leave that alone, personally. But if the watch isn't sealed and it's a humid day and moisture gets in, then it will soon get worse I think? Possibly cleaning the specs away but what you might end up with is a slightly rough surface so best to leave that particular one. I'd leave it as is. Nice watch buy highly overrated in my opinion at the moment. Or at least reaching silly prices.

    EDIT. The rotating ring insert pip needed a thicker consistency and slightly better colour match, imo.
    Last edited by Bodo; 13th August 2017 at 13:40.

  28. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim W View Post
    So you've never found a 6105/6217/6159 you would buy. I've got plenty of all of those that have not been relumed. I guess you're not looking hard enough.

    So my 6215 is now not a genuine Seiko just because I has a replacement insert. I guess you'll never own one if those either because of the high price you'd have to pay for even a half decent example.

    You don't have much of a Seiko diver collection I guess.
    No offence intended - it's not just an insert, it's had lume added. That's not to suggest it's no longer a "genuine Seiko," as you assert I suggest, just not - for me - a factory issue anymore.

    As for not looking hard enough, well, perhaps - but the fact is untouched Seiko divers are few and far between. And becoming more so as OP notes. And whilst, actually, price is not an issue for me - I bow to your superior collection of vintage divers.

  29. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by sepsonto View Post
    No offence intended - it's not just an insert, it's had lume added. That's not to suggest it's no longer a "genuine Seiko," as you assert I suggest, just not - for me - a factory issue anymore.

    As for not looking hard enough, well, perhaps - but the fact is untouched Seiko divers are few and far between. And becoming more so as OP notes. And whilst, actually, price is not an issue for me - I bow to your superior collection of vintage divers.

    Strangely, I'd say there are fewer untouched examples of something like a 7002 or slim case 6309 than the earlier 62MAS at times! :)





    Last edited by Bodo; 13th August 2017 at 13:58. Reason: less/fewer

  30. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by sepsonto View Post
    No offence intended - it's not just an insert, it's had lume added. That's not to suggest it's no longer a "genuine Seiko," as you assert I suggest, just not - for me - a factory issue anymore.
    This thread is getting silly. So now patching a hole in the original lume detracts value. What are you on?

    If price is not an issue to you that's great... I look forward to seeing your high value all original untouched collection. Please post detailed photographs.
    Last edited by Jim W; 13th August 2017 at 17:29.

  31. #81
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    I like my watches completely original but if the dial and hands need work, why not swap them out for replacements and keep the originals safe and sound, so you get the best of both worlds? My first 6309-7040 (when I knew no better!) came with decent replacement dial, hands, bezel and crystal. I recently bought two perfectly original examples. All three went off for service by .olli. with the two original ones left untouched cosmetically, apart from a good clean of the case etc. The dial, hands and bezel from the non-original one were sent up to James Hyman for a relume in aged but functioning lume, and it looks superb. I tend to wear it when I'm out on the piss or on holiday, while the all-original ones are kept away from water or danger (although they are water tight).
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  32. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim W View Post
    This thread is getting silly. So now patching a hole in the original lume detracts value. What are you on?

    If price is not an issue to you that's great... I look forward to seeing your high value all original untouched collection. Please post detailed photographs.
    Detracts value for me, yes. Sad you think that means I am 'on' something because I have a different opinion to you.

    I never said I had a collection, merely that I would if I could find enough untouched examples, and hence no pictures to post. Again, I bow humbly to your collection Jim.

  33. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by sepsonto View Post
    Detracts value for me, yes. Sad you think that means I am 'on' something because I have a different opinion to you.

    I never said I had a collection, merely that I would if I could find enough untouched examples, and hence no pictures to post. Again, I bow humbly to your collection Jim.
    I thought so, zero experience but plenty of mouth. I doubt any of the many collectors around the world will have any interest in your opinions.

  34. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim W View Post
    I thought so, zero experience but plenty of mouth. I doubt any of the many collectors around the world will have any interest in your opinions.
    Plenty of mouth!? For having an opinion. Lol.

    You've got more issues than the Beano, old boy...

  35. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by sepsonto View Post
    Plenty of mouth!? For having an opinion. Lol.

    You've got more issues than the Beano, old boy...
    It's you that's got the issues, we've heard enough of them.
    Haven't you figured it out yet... no one is interested in your opinion.

    But I expect you'd still like to have the last word....

  36. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim W View Post
    It's you that's got the issues, we've heard enough of them.
    Haven't you figured it out yet... no one is interested in your opinion.

    But I expect you'd still like to have the last word....
    You seem pretty interested in it Jim. Just sayin' like.

  37. #87
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    Okay, here's a conundrum for you:

    I have a 45+ year old (non-Seiko) divers watch. The lume is dead as the proverbial doornail. The lume on the hands is cracked and on the hour hand about half has fallen out. So the hour hand needs replacement lume. The '$64k question' is: how much lume do I have the repair facility replace?

    Possibility #1: just the hole in the hour hand. That would, I think, look pretty weird, but to a purist, maybe the minimalist option would be the best?
    Possibility #2: just relume the whole hour hand. That might look weird, too, as the hour hand would be different from all the other lume on the watch face.
    Possibility #3: relume all 3 hands but leave the lume in the hour markers on the dial alone. This, IMO, would be the most logical.
    Possibility #4: complete relume: all hands and all hour markers on the dial. This would look the best (from a non-purist standpoint) as all lume on the watch face would be uniform, however, it surely wouldn't satisfy any purists.

    So, if the watch needs some lume repair anyway, how far is enough / how far is too far?

    BTW, just to answer the most logical question you're thinking now, it's an IWC Aquatimer from the late '60s. A beautiful watch with the sunburst dial and unpolished case and original signed bracelet - which I don't want the service center to touch. Oh, in answer to your next most logical question: NO! I don't want to sell it.

    Your opinions, please?

    Regards,
    Jeff Emslie

  38. #88
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    I've always been in the keep it all original camp personally.

    I can't see why you would buy a vintage watch if you like everything like new when there is very probably a similar new version available for purchase.

    That said I can see why Jim had the bezel sorted on his lovely 6215-7000 as the one in there wasn't original anyway.

    I quite agree with the OP that originality is where the money is, the trouble with vintage Seikos is that it is hard to find some models in original good condition, divers especially.
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  39. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Emslie View Post
    I have a 45+ year old (non-Seiko) divers watch. The lume is dead as the proverbial doornail. The lume on the hands is cracked and on the hour hand about half has fallen out. So the hour hand needs replacement lume. The '$64k question' is: how much lume do I have the repair facility replace?

    Possibility #1: just the hole in the hour hand. That would, I think, look pretty weird, but to a purist, maybe the minimalist option would be the best?
    Possibility #2: just relume the whole hour hand. That might look weird, too, as the hour hand would be different from all the other lume on the watch face.
    Possibility #3: relume all 3 hands but leave the lume in the hour markers on the dial alone. This, IMO, would be the most logical.
    Possibility #4: complete relume: all hands and all hour markers on the dial. This would look the best (from a non-purist standpoint) as all lume on the watch face would be uniform, however, it surely wouldn't satisfy any purists.

    So, if the watch needs some lume repair anyway, how far is enough / how far is too far?

    BTW, just to answer the most logical question you're thinking now, it's an IWC Aquatimer from the late '60s. A beautiful watch with the sunburst dial and unpolished case and original signed bracelet - which I don't want the service center to touch. Oh, in answer to your next most logical question: NO! I don't want to sell it.

    Your opinions, please?

    Regards,
    Jeff Emslie
    Option 1 for me Jeff.

    An expert could get a an excellent match.
    Cheers,
    Neil.

    My Speedmaster website:

    http://www.freewebs.com/neil271052

  40. #90
    Craftsman Bodo's Avatar
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    Maybe a talented individual could remove and save the original lume, dissolve it into some thinner and add a binder to essentially 'relume the old lume'! :)

  41. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Emslie View Post
    I have a 45+ year old (non-Seiko) divers watch. The lume is dead as the proverbial doornail. The lume on the hands is cracked and on the hour hand about half has fallen out. So the hour hand needs replacement lume. The '$64k question' is: how much lume do I have the repair facility replace?

    Possibility #1: just the hole in the hour hand. That would, I think, look pretty weird, but to a purist, maybe the minimalist option would be the best?
    Possibility #2: just relume the whole hour hand. That might look weird, too, as the hour hand would be different from all the other lume on the watch face.
    Possibility #3: relume all 3 hands but leave the lume in the hour markers on the dial alone. This, IMO, would be the most logical.
    Possibility #4: complete relume: all hands and all hour markers on the dial. This would look the best (from a non-purist standpoint) as all lume on the watch face would be uniform, however, it surely wouldn't satisfy any purists.

    So, if the watch needs some lume repair anyway, how far is enough / how far is too far?

    BTW, just to answer the most logical question you're thinking now, it's an IWC Aquatimer from the late '60s. A beautiful watch with the sunburst dial and unpolished case and original signed bracelet - which I don't want the service center to touch. Oh, in answer to your next most logical question: NO! I don't want to sell it.

    Your opinions, please?

    Regards,
    Jeff Emslie
    Definitely not #4, do you have any pictures?

  42. #92
    Master yonsson's Avatar
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    A year ago I sold this beautiful 6306 to a friend of mine but today I bought it back. It's the only watch I've bought back, ever.
    Mom very glad this one never went through a restoration. ;)

  43. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Emslie View Post
    I have a 45+ year old (non-Seiko) divers watch. The lume is dead as the proverbial doornail. The lume on the hands is cracked and on the hour hand about half has fallen out. So the hour hand needs replacement lume. The '$64k question' is: how much lume do I have the repair facility replace?

    Possibility #1: just the hole in the hour hand. That would, I think, look pretty weird, but to a purist, maybe the minimalist option would be the best?
    Possibility #2: just relume the whole hour hand. That might look weird, too, as the hour hand would be different from all the other lume on the watch face.
    Possibility #3: relume all 3 hands but leave the lume in the hour markers on the dial alone. This, IMO, would be the most logical.
    Possibility #4: complete relume: all hands and all hour markers on the dial. This would look the best (from a non-purist standpoint) as all lume on the watch face would be uniform, however, it surely wouldn't satisfy any purists.

    So, if the watch needs some lume repair anyway, how far is enough / how far is too far?

    BTW, just to answer the most logical question you're thinking now, it's an IWC Aquatimer from the late '60s. A beautiful watch with the sunburst dial and unpolished case and original signed bracelet - which I don't want the service center to touch. Oh, in answer to your next most logical question: NO! I don't want to sell it.

    Your opinions, please?

    Regards,
    Jeff Emslie
    Best option would be to use old lume (harvested off other old glow dead hands) and use that. As bodo mentioned, you can break it up and mix it to apply. That's what I'd do.

  44. #94
    Craftsman Bodo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yonsson View Post


    A year ago I sold this beautiful 6306 to a friend of mine but today I bought it back. It's the only watch I've bought back, ever.
    Mom very glad this one never went through a restoration. ;)

    Looks like it was already relumed.

  45. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodo View Post
    Looks like it was already relumed.
    It's not, it's tritium. Sometimes tritium gets puffy. But you can't fake tritium, just leave it uncharged and check if it still glows very faint after 24hrs in a box.

  46. #96
    Craftsman Gavbaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodo View Post
    Looks like it was already relumed.
    Looks very nice to me. Here is mine. :)


    Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

  47. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by yonsson View Post
    It's not, it's tritium. Sometimes tritium gets puffy. But you can't fake tritium, just leave it uncharged and check if it still glows very faint after 24hrs in a box.
    Just playing devil's advocate, but what's to say it wasn't relume a while ago with tritium? It isn't used now of course but it was widely until 10-15 years ago

  48. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Padders View Post
    Just playing devil's advocate, but what's to say it wasn't relume a while ago with tritium? It isn't used now of course but it was widely until 10-15 years ago
    There is no way of knowing anything of a watch if you haven't owned it from when it was new. It does however look right and act right, that's all you have to go on. Tritium degrades naturally, the phosphorus part of the lume mix doesn't. A 15 year old tritium watch glows better than this 41 year old.

  49. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodo View Post
    You didn't start a thread to open discussion, far as I can tell, although it's turned into one because I think many see it more nuanced than you do and don't really see the point in comparing Seiko to Rolex, especially the vintage scene in the context of this thread.

    You basically came across as some kind of authority on vintage Seiko telling others what they should or should not do with their watches. Maybe the odd 'imo' wouldn't have hurt? Plus I seem to remember you believed a 6306 dial was aftermarket not long ago when a member here bought one or maybe it was the hands..Either way you had known collectors saying otherwise and you didn't really know did you.

    'Patina always beats relume', you said, 'always'. Not exactly open to discussion that, is it... And yet you still, having been consistently given differing, valid opinions, come across as arrogant and basically ignored the points of view of people IN the actual Seiko community.
    It was the hands...


  50. #100
    Craftsman Bodo's Avatar
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    Very nice. Here is a 6306 I used to have.

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