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Thread: Rolex diver price advice?

  1. #1
    Master Orange Peel's Avatar
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    Rolex diver price advice?

    I'm looking at the possibility of buying a Rolex diver.
    Not so much for investment but hopefully to at least retain it's value if not increase a bit over time?
    I'm not very active on here the last few years and as such out of touch with used prices, thus my post for advice?
    Don't like the Deep Sea or the larger 43mm models as they will be too large on my wrist (although I LOVE the new 50th anniversary 126600 SD with red lettering)
    I have a few options to chose from listed below along with my initial thoughts in red.


    • 16610 Sub Date (pre-ceramic) Classic and timeless and I prefer this case to the maxi case. Love/Hate with cyclops!
    • 116610LN Sub Date (ceramic) Prefer this over the original except for the maxi case although I have not tried one on yet or seen in the "metal" Love/Hate with cyclops!
    • 114060 Sub (ceramic) Like the simplicity of no cyclops (which is why I like SD's) not sure if I need a date or not? Again, unsure ref the maxi case.
    • 116600 Sea Dweller 4000 (ceramic) Love this and prefer the case to the maxi. Has a date but no cyclops. Not seen in the Metal so unsure if thickness an issue although the older 16600 non-ceramic model was perfect for my wrist
    • 16600 Sea Dweller (pre-ceramic) Had a couple of these in the past and loved them, should never have sold them. Hard to find in mint condition though? Prefer the newer spec of the 4000 if all esle is equal?


    I welcome any advice ref pricing and availability?
    Thanks
    Neil.
    Last edited by Orange Peel; 24th July 2017 at 10:39.

  2. #2
    Master
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    Hi Neil. Nice to hear from you here, hope all is well.

    Re your list I've got/had all of them and currently have Sub-C LV and SD-C. From your list I would go for Sub-C 114060. Simple and classic, plus modem. Re pricing I would used Chronext as a guide and then approach ADs.
    Last edited by ASW1; 24th July 2017 at 10:48.

  3. #3
    Master Orange Peel's Avatar
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    Thanks, I do lurk every now and then but try not to become too engaged as it leads to my old problem recurring!
    As a recovering Flipperholic I've been on the wagon since I got my black SMP ceramic in 2014 so am quiet proud of that.
    This is not a flip but a potential addition as I'd still use the SMPC for everyday/office wear, leaving the Rolex for weekend/special meetings/occasions etc.

    The Non date Sub-C is lovely and I am kind of drawn to it, the lack of date is very appealing and (arguably) makes the watch more elegant?
    I have never had a non date watch before and have historically always insisted on a date complication. I do use it (providing I can see it without my readers!) but perhaps only because I can?
    I really love what Rolex have done with the divers but am not (initially) a fan of the maxi case as I don't like the way the lugs stick out from the bracelet rather than taper down.
    I don't mind the larger crown guard so much though and love the improved bracelet, glide lock clasp, blue lume, maxi dial and of course the ceramic bezel.
    I really need to see them in the "metal" but from seeing other posts on here it looks like that may be a tall order as none seems to carry them in stock?
    I have a friend at Church who has a ceramic GMT, is that the same maxi case as the Sub-C? If so then I can try his on I suppose although it may be less thick than the Sub or especially the SD.

    If I buy new, will I lose money from day one or will any of these retain their value?
    Is buying pre-owned the wiser choice (although often the prices are not much less than new!)

    Thanks
    Neil.

  4. #4
    Master Orange Peel's Avatar
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    Another thought, my mate Bazza suggested that an option could be buying an example that is less than mint but at a price that allows a full Rolex service, thus returning it to "as new" condition?
    Would this affect the value in any way? i.e. would it ultimately be worth less than the sum of money I pour into it including the service?

    I presume box and papers is also a must if I want to retain value?

  5. #5
    Master Orange Peel's Avatar
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    Another thought, what is the general consensus regarding the matt dial on the ceramic SD4000?
    Is it black (prefer) or does it appear more of a dark grey(less so)?

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Orange Peel View Post
    Another thought, my mate Bazza suggested that an option could be buying an example that is less than mint but at a price that allows a full Rolex service, thus returning it to "as new" condition?
    Would this affect the value in any way? i.e. would it ultimately be worth less than the sum of money I pour into it including the service?

    I presume box and papers is also a must if I want to retain value?
    Depends on how not mint. Minor marks etc. No issue- but certs etc on a ceramic bezel and pip could reduce value a lot.
    It's just a matter of time...

  7. #7
    Master Orange Peel's Avatar
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    I suppose I need to take a look in the metal.
    I'm almost ruling out the newer ceramic Subs because of the maxi case but I've never actually tried one on so that would be daft until I have I suppose.
    The 40mm ceramic SD4000 is favourite at the minute but mainly because of the lack of maxi case, closely followed by the non ceramic SD and Sub date.

    Anyone know if the 40mm SD4000 is still available new?
    All I can find on the Rolex site is the SD 43mm versions and the DeepSea.

  8. #8
    Master -Ally-'s Avatar
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    I've tried them all and if I had to start again and only buy one for keeping forever, it would be the SD4K.
    Not available new though.

  9. #9
    Master Orange Peel's Avatar
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    Just read another thread from earlier this year and now know the SD4000 is discontinued.
    Sounds like a real challenge to find one without paying through the nose?
    Still, I'd also consider a 16600 pre ceramic, how are they priced these days for a minty example?

  10. #10
    Master
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    I think there will always be availability on all watches you list but, as we know convenience comes at a cost so then it comes down to personal preference and how much pain you are prepared to take, I have variants of all the watches you list below apart form the non date sub, I sold my sd4k 2 month ago and wish I never it is simply a sublime watch and the one I'd go with if i was in your shoes

  11. #11
    I was lucky enough to try the new model Sub, Sub-Date, SD4-K and Deepsea together in one session at an airport AD in Asia - of them all I found the Sub to be far and away the most comfortable/best fit etc. I have also previously owned a 16600, 16610 and 14060M........and again my favourite is the standard Sub. As a previous poster has advised it really just comes down to setting a budget (you can source all these models at a price in new/NOS/mint condition) and then trying them on. Good luck.

  12. #12
    Grand Master
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    Sd4000 or 16600.
    I can't see the ceramics gaining tbh. Not that it matters anyway if you're keeping it. That said the 114060 is a lovely watch.

  13. #13
    Grand Master
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    Pre-ceramic Sub date is the way to go, but unfortunately the prices have gone up significantly in the last couple of years. Find one that's not been polished or serviced yet, be sure it hasn`t got serious scratches or dings, then have it serviced/refinished by a good Rolex indy or Rolex UK. If the watch is right, with all bracelet links etc, I wouldn`t worry if the box and papers are missing.

    The pre-ceramic SD sits a bit high on the wrist for my liking, and the bracelet suffers from the 'too long on the six side' problem that also afflicts the ND sub. Not a problem for those with big wrists, but unless you've piled weight on with your wrists you could find the fit a problem...........I did.

    Why not go for a 36mm Explorer 1 instead? Frankly, as I know you've owned a couple of Subs in the past from new I think you might find it a struggle to go back over old ground.....and you've already got one diver.

    As a complete left-field suggestion, how about a 116000 Oyster with blue explorer-style dial? I almost did a deal for one last Christmas at Blowers but changed my mind. OK, you'd be paying almost £4K but it'll hold it's value reasonably well. It could be argued that the price rises on the divers has already happened and they won`t continue going up, so the 'investment' side of the argument may be flawed.

    Paul

  14. #14
    Master
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    I'm not a huge Rolex diver fan - but have owned the pre-ceramic SD and recently the 114060 Sub.
    I'm not keen on the cyclops .. and prefer simplicity of 3 hands , so I liked the 114060 and would recommend because of the glidelock bracelet ...
    Date watches are pointless for me as my useless eyes can't read them unless they're large date like my GO Seventies.

  15. #15
    Master Orange Peel's Avatar
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    Thanks so far guys, some interesting suggestions and a reality check to!

    Paul, as you know, I did consider an Exp1 36mm the first time I toyed with this idea a few months ago but dismissed it purely on the grounds that, unlike the divers the depreciation risk was far less favourable.
    I have to remind myself that although I would (sparingly) wear the watch, it would have to pretty much (or as much as is possible) guarantee zero depreciation even if it didn't actually appreciate.
    That's the prime directive really from SWMBO "use some savings for a watch but just don't lose any money" the point is that I can enjoy some of our savings in the form of a nice watch but need to ensure that the money is still available should we desperately need it?

    It's not just a case of I want a new watch so buy what I like, it must retain it's value and I'm not sure of many others (Inc. the other Rolex models like the Exp1) that will do that like the divers seem to do?

  16. #16
    Grand Master
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    Buy secondhand and I don`t see a problem with the Exp 1. Expect to pay £3-£3.5K for a nice 36mm, it isn`t going to drop in value. It's far nicer than the later 39mm version which seems to lose something in the scale-up.

    I just don't see the point in owning a second diver unless you like divers to the exclusion of everything else. Some folks on here can`t see beyond dive watches.....you're not one of them. If you're going to have a second watch it makes sense to get a Rolex if the depreciation/loss of value is a concern, I certainly agree with that logic.

    Paul

  17. #17
    Master MarkO's Avatar
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    Rolex diver price advice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Orange Peel View Post

    Anyone know if the 40mm SD4000 is still available new?
    All I can find on the Rolex site is the SD 43mm versions and the DeepSea.
    I was in my local Rolex AD on Saturday and they have one on display- it was next to both black versions of the sub, nice to see all 3 side by side.

    It will be US list price so no exactly a bargain given the exchange rate.
    Just buy it over the phone and get a friendly TZ member to deliver it !

  18. #18
    Master Orange Peel's Avatar
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    Thanks Mark, I still need to confirm the decision to proceed but wouldn't rule that out
    What is the US RRP?

  19. #19
    Master Orange Peel's Avatar
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    Does anyone know what a fair price would be for a pre-owned SD4000?

    I've seen them for £8,500+/- for a 2014 on Blowers and WF but don't know if that's reasonable and if I will lose on that should I ever want to sell on?

  20. #20
    Master MarkO's Avatar
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    I'm just checking direct with the salesman I know but even with the weak exchange rate should be under GBP 8k

  21. #21
    Craftsman
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    If you're going to go with a 5 digit model I would advise go as modern as possible. The price difference is minimal and you will notice the advantages of solid end links, improved braclets etc

  22. #22
    Craftsman
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    I absolutely love the SD4000. The bracelet is one of the best out there IMHO. I think the last couple on SC sold for c. £7.5k, but they don't seem to come up that often. The other one you might want consider is the 14060m - classic and if you prefer the cleaner look for c. £5k. The 14060m is really comfortable and much lighter than the SD4000.

    Can't go wrong with either IMHO.

  23. #23
    Master MarkO's Avatar
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    Antone know what Watchfinder et al are actually paying for the new Sea Dweller 126600?

  24. #24
    Craftsman
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    I bought an almost new SD4kc at the time Rolex announced the SD43 (to replace my Sub that I gave to my son for his 21st a while back). I also put myself down for an SD43. Anyway, I just tried the new 43 and didn't take it, instead I am keeping the SD4kc. It is personal, but the 43 was a bit too big for me and I didn't like the look with the cyclops. I wanted to like it but it didn't do it for me. Others would have made a different choice. I would advise trying all the watches you have listed and working out which you like the best. Good luck and I hope you find the right watch for you.


    Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app

  25. #25
    Master Orange Peel's Avatar
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    Thanks chaps, it is a tricky one and I'm only doing some homework at this stage.
    However, assuming I had a green light I would be steering toward the SD4000 if a/ funds allowed and b/ I could find one without paying through the nose.

    I like the Sub date and ND but am still on the fence about the maxi case, as was mentioned I need to try them on first but will hold off until I know it's definitely going to happen to save having my desire whipped up only to end in disappointment if the funds don't become available.

    Speaking of the maxi case, I have noticed that the SD4000 and the SD43 both have a more traditional style of lug on the cases? They don't seem to be so square and blocky and flow into the bracelet much better IMO. The crown guards are still larger than the old pre-ceramics though but I don't mind that so much.

    Do we think this is the way Rolex are going and if so should we expect at some point in the future, the Sub range to be given a slight makeover to the "revised" maxi case minus the bulky lugs?

  26. #26
    There will be a refresh to the new movement. Whether that is in the current cases first is anyone's guess
    It's just a matter of time...

  27. #27
    Master Orange Peel's Avatar
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    Yes I suppose it's anyone's guess as to what they do next.
    Perhaps I'm reading too much into it but if they have gone back to slimmer, nicer lug dimensions for a heavier duty watch like the SD, both the discontinued 4000 and the new 43mm then it may be an indication of the same happening to the Subs as they are arguably even more suited to a thinner lug.

    My searching and a few phone calls has led me to think that around £8,500 is average for a used (c2014) SD4000 and around a grand less if a private sale.
    As for NOS well forget that as I'll never pay over RRP for anything, ever.

    Does anyone have any side by side shots of the older Sub next to a ceramic to show the difference in lugs and how noticeable it is or isn't?

  28. #28
    I think you have to try them to compare, personally I am about the only person in the universe that found the 5 digit Subs a little small and underwhelming

    Try them both and buy what you prefer, thats what I did

    The lugs are different but worse/ugly/nicer is all personal opinion

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by RSBains View Post
    Hi everyone I love watches
    You need to stop it! Either join in properly, or join a forum that allows sch behaviours.
    It's just a matter of time...

  30. #30
    Journeyman
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    Watching this thread closely! Im also hoping to purchase a SD4000 (or 14060m) soon

  31. #31
    Master Orange Peel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omegamanic View Post
    You need to stop it! Either join in properly, or join a forum that allows sch behaviours.

    Not sure what that's about?

    Can't see any post relating to it?...Ah well......

  32. #32
    Any of the above, just chose what you like!

  33. #33
    Craftsman
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    I have a 16610, 16600 and a 116610LV. The one I d keep over the others is the 16600 seadweller just the perfect Rolex diver IMO

  34. #34
    Master Orange Peel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idc0001 View Post
    I have a 16610, 16600 and a 116610LV. The one I d keep over the others is the 16600 seadweller just the perfect Rolex diver IMO
    Dont I know it, I've had and sold two.
    The last one was a Z serial, the last run they did before discontinuing in favour of the DS and then the SD4000.

  35. #35
    Grand Master MartynJC (UK)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orange Peel View Post

    Speaking of the maxi case, I have noticed that the SD4000 and the SD43 both have a more traditional style of lug on the cases? They don't seem to be so square and blocky and flow into the bracelet much better IMO. The crown guards are still larger than the old pre-ceramics though but I don't mind that so much.
    Neil - all I can show you is the comparison of the maxi SubC and SD4K - you can see the shoulders on both - but in reality the SD4K are less obtrusive somehow




    iPhone pic:



    The dial is black (not grey or off black) - I think you asked about that?

    I ended up keeping the SD4K - not before selling both and lucky buying the SD4K from WF just before Basel 2017 so still in the 7K range. I love mine. The others are disproportioned IMHO with the maxi dial. I even sold my Hulk for the same reason - now on the look out for a decent Kermit!

    The SD4K has so many features I prefer over the older SD (I sold the beautiful 16660 to fund the SD4K) - glidelock fully adjustable clasp and improved bracelet, somehow flatter profile - not so top-heavy - super smooth ceramic with ball-bearing bezel, improved lume, still an Oyster case with parachrome movement for rock solid movement - 5yr warranty with the green tag and 10yr service interval.

    Martyn
    Last edited by MartynJC (UK); 28th July 2017 at 21:05.

  36. #36
    Master Orange Peel's Avatar
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    Thanks Martyn and great pics to

    The lug thickness difference looks minimal on those pics but more apparent when viewed directly from above as I've noticed on other images.

    The clean dial of the non date Sub is a very tempting alternative to the SD4000 but I won't know for sure about the lugs until I get to try a Sub date or non date on.

  37. #37
    Grand Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by henk View Post
    Yawn

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    Please try to stop being a dick EVERY time you visit.

  38. #38
    Grand Master MartynJC (UK)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orange Peel View Post
    Thanks Martyn and great pics to

    The lug thickness difference looks minimal on those pics but more apparent when viewed directly from above as I've noticed on other images.

    The clean dial of the non date Sub is a very tempting alternative to the SD4000 but I won't know for sure about the lugs until I get to try a Sub date or non date on.
    Just for comparison are the wide shoulders of the BLNR and Hulk





    I don't know if you ever get down to London / Leeds - but Watchfinder have Subs, SD4Ks, LV etc in stock so you could try them on - or you could even get them by post - you have 14d returns on them if not to your liking (I have no affiliation to the company!).

    Martyn
    Last edited by MartynJC (UK); 29th July 2017 at 22:41.

  39. #39
    Master
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    Hi Neil

    You may find this useful http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.ph...ght=Submariner

    Day to day there really isn't much in it re the lugs and the Sub is lighter and a little more comfortable IMO.

  40. #40
    Master Orange Peel's Avatar
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    Well, progress is being made on the budgeting front but I do need to check out the level of increase to my house insurance premium
    If it's not too disturbing I may be in the market.
    Still, I'll not go out of my way to try any on yet (assuming I can find any in an AD!) just in case it all goes South.

  41. #41
    Master Orange Peel's Avatar
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    Insurance quotes are very encouraging, even for an SD4000, even more so for the Subs.
    Subject to a discussion today or soon this week it may be prudent to start looking for some to try on or look at in the metal?
    Not 100% yet though as my lovely wife has been known to change her mind on occasion.

  42. #42
    Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by ASW1 View Post

    Day to day there really isn't much in it re the lugs and the Sub is lighter and a little more comfortable IMO.
    I must beg to differ; there is, for me, a pretty large difference. The ceramic Sub is 'blockish' and square, and has thus lost much of its original charm. It isn't so nice at all. The lugs on the 4000 are slimmer and more like the original subs. I couldn't live with the Sub, but loved the 4000. But if course, your mileage may vary.

  43. #43
    Master Orange Peel's Avatar
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    Ok so after a bit of umming and arring my budget has been fixed and kinda rules out my first choice of an SD4000.
    However it does leave me in Sub date, non date or pre-ceramic SD territory.

    I now have to decide which, if any will at least retain (not necessarily increase) their value should I wish to redeem the cash at a later time, possibly many rears from now but you never know.

    Would buying new (presuming I could find one) at RRP be a good move or should I look at pre-owned and if pre-owned should I look at pre-ceramic or ceramic versions!

    Id like to be a little clearer on what is a good choice and what is a good price before posting a WTB.

    So which is the best bet to keep its value?
    What is a good price for a used model Sub (ceramic and pre-ceramic) or perhaps a 16610 pre-ceramic SD?

    The game is afoot!!!

    ����
    Last edited by Orange Peel; 27th August 2017 at 20:50.

  44. #44
    Master -Ally-'s Avatar
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    Honestly I think you need to establish for yourself whether it is a ceramic or pre-ceramic that you prefer, then worry about the price if that's an issue. They are quite different.

  45. #45
    Grand Master Dave+63's Avatar
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    Just buy the one you like best. If you sell it in a number of years you'll probably at least get your money back.

    Beyond that, who cares?

  46. #46
    Grand Master
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    It's entirely up to you which case you prefer.
    Values of ceramics are fairly stable and used prices are only dipping a few hundred below new. With price rises over time if you keep a ceramic for a while it's unlikely to lose much if anything as prices creep north.
    Old cases are steadily rising but who knows when or if that's going to plateau.

  47. #47
    Master davida's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orange Peel View Post
    Ok so after a bit of umming and arring my budget has been fixed and kinda rules out my first choice of an SD4000.
    However it does leave me in Sub date, non date or pre-ceramic SD territory.

    I now have to decide which, if any will at least retain (not necessarily increase) their value should I wish to redeem the cash at a later time, possibly many rears from now but you never know.

    Would buying new (presuming I could find one) at RRP be a good move or should I look at pre-owned and if pre-owned should I look at pre-ceramic or ceramic versions!

    Id like to be a little clearer on what is a good choice and what is a good price before posting a WTB.

    So which is the best bet to keep its value?
    What is a good price for a used model Sub (ceramic and pre-ceramic) or perhaps a 16610 pre-ceramic SD?

    The game is afoot!!!

    ����
    You're really over thinking this by the looks of it. You wont take a massive hit on any of the ones you mentioned so buy the one you prefer otherwise whats the point?

  48. #48
    Grand Master MartynJC (UK)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Ally- View Post
    Honestly I think you need to establish for yourself whether it is a ceramic or pre-ceramic that you prefer, then worry about the price if that's an issue. They are quite different.
    Neil. Has to be this. Then decide on date or no date. What is your budget?

    Martyn.

  49. #49
    Master Orange Peel's Avatar
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    £6k max

  50. #50
    Grand Master Andyg's Avatar
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    I cannot understand why you have not included the 16800(0) and 16660 models.

    Both are available to similar money as those you have listed and both are inflation proof if you buy wisely.

    Wearing my 16800 as we speak - 38 years old and still running COSC.

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
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