closing tag is in template navbar
timefactors watches



TZ-UK Fundraiser
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 51 to 62 of 62

Thread: New Star Trek series - "Discovery"

  1. #51
    Grand Master Glamdring's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Doncaster, UK
    Posts
    16,651
    I do understand, really. I just can't believe that a 1950's argument can still be carried on three hundred years in the future. I mean, we're having it now. Look at the row between Musk and Zuckerberg just today on the nature of AI. Asimov sorted that out in his Foundation Trilogy (saga, there were six books as I recall, all excellent).
    For me, targeting Picard was a no-no. The captain of the flagship. No, he rules.

  2. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Glamdring View Post
    I do understand, really. I just can't believe that a 1950's argument can still be carried on three hundred years in the future. I mean, we're having it now. Look at the row between Musk and Zuckerberg just today on the nature of AI.
    Except it's still a murky and misunderstood area even now, it's far from being sorted out. The fact that people like Musk, Zuckerburg and Hawking can all disagree just proves how contentious it is.

    I happen to know quite a bit about modern machine learning and AI. Asimov's 3 laws are known to everyone in the field, but they simply don't apply in the real world. What's really interesting, once you get down into it is that alien intelligence is, well, alien. It's hard for us to reason about. That's why I mentioned dolphins etc. I don't think we're really that far away from AI that resembles dolphins more than humans. Actually, worms or cockroaches first, but you get the idea. Real "human-like" AI is much further away.

    What we are moving towards is a more generalised form of AI that we don't fully understand and which has exceptionally powerful capabilities in some areas (face recognition across huge databases etc) but is completely lacking in others. It certainly won't think or act like us. Data, with his lack of emotion & imagination is a slightly naive simplification, but the basic principle holds. If you look at animals, we tend to relate more strongly to ones we can easily anthropormorphise, like dogs, because they have similar social structures etc. But an octopus is probably more intelligent that most dogs, yet we cannot relate to them, so it's much harder for us to comprehend if they are intelligent at all. People are going to disagree about this for a long time, perhaps even in a universe with humanoid aliens.

    Right now there is a supposed debate about AI: whether it should have rights, or whether there should be an "ethical black box" (heavily inspired by Asimov); but most of the arguments are put forth either by people with agendas, or who don't understand the current state of ML. There is much arguing around the same hypotheticals Asimov explored in the 40s and 50s, while ignoring the true problems about things like privacy and concentration of power in corporations like Facebook. The usual sci-fi parallel (including Data) is the robot of incredible strength & speed, though in fact Skynet is probably closest to the current reality.

    That part is getting a bit outside the scope of that episode, but I don't think it's fair to assume these issues will be completely sorted out before it is a extant issue, whether that is 300 years from now or only 30. In fact, it's far more likely we will have ill-conceived laws driven by popular misconceptions. Laws are made by politicians, often ignoring the advice of experts.

    The detail of the ultimate debate won't be exactly the same, but the basic problem is that we do not have a good understanding of cognition, reasoning or sentience. That's unlikely to be resolved until we are able to agree on what is or isn't sentient. If we can't tell whether a dolphin or octopus should have equal rights to a human, we're even less likely to be able to make that judgement about a machine.

    The reality is likely going to be more confusing, because we may end up having machines that are sentient, but that can also be losslessly cloned at any point in time. That completely defies everything we currently know, or think we know, about life. It would change the definition of death, for one thing. Some people believe that will never happen because they assume the brain is a quantum system, but actually, all the evidence says it isn't.

    Anyway, it's worth pointing out that sci-fi is about thought experiments. It's not supposed to be a totally accurate prediction of the future. It just needs to be internally consistent so that problems can't be solved by magic (something that is an occasional weakness of Star Trek). It's at its best when the scientific premise is laid out at the start, then no new science is introduced to solve the problem. Measure of a Man is a perfect example of that, whether you think the initial scenario likely or not.

  3. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by robt View Post
    Anyway, it's worth pointing out that sci-fi is about thought experiments. It's not supposed to be a totally accurate prediction of the future. It just needs to be internally consistent so that problems can't be solved by magic (something that is an occasional weakness of Star Trek). It's at its best when the scientific premise is laid out at the start, then no new science is introduced to solve the problem. Measure of a Man is a perfect example of that, whether you think the initial scenario likely or not.
    Yes, I know I'm stating the obvious, but most sci-fi is allegorical, dealing with human issues (normally of the day). TOS espcially was democracy (specifically the US) vs totalitarianism. As TFB says, some TNG episodes actually dealt quite cleverly with essential human conditions (even though there was also quite a bit of thinly-veiled "US is best").

    Very little TV and movie sci-fi is seriously-speculative, hard sci-fi - which tends to be more in literature, and is often quite dry and unfilmable anyway. Soft sci-fi doesn't normally even attempt to justify itself, and is often the better for it IMO. (At least Star Wars doesn't even pretend to be in the future, or even in our galaxy). It's better just to suspend disbeleif, and enjoy it.

    The problem with Star Trek is that it's not quite one thing or the other IMO. It almost certainly started-off as fairly soft sci-fi, but due to the slightly-obessive nature some of the hard-core fans, it became forced to try and explain its universe, particularly its technology, and then had to start incorporating it into story-lines. These were always going to be an exercise in futility (and led to often-preposterous retconning), particularly as certain elements were purely plot-devices (or even budgetary limitations - like transporters), rather than serious speculation. It doesn't help that Star Trek can be quite po-faced (about itself at least - although there were some great exceptions) and earnest.

    Unfortunately, this means we get the endless "Kirk vs Picard to 4 decimal-places" discussions, which are ultimately futile.

    Conversely, this is where the revived Dr Who is genius - it acknowledges it own nature, the parallels to the real world, and even pulls back the veil and ridicules itself every now and again.
    Last edited by robcat; 26th July 2017 at 07:33.

  4. #54
    Grand Master markrlondon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    25,354
    Blog Entries
    26
    Quote Originally Posted by TheFlyingBanana View Post
    Starfleet isn't the military. The Trek universe has always been very clear about that. It is a civilian organisation with the remit to explore.
    Yes, they have been really clear about that. But it's bulls5!t. Really, it is. It always was. It was reflective of Rodenberry's utopian visions and is still a leftover from his ideas. The practical truth is that Starfleet is a military organisation: It is armed to the teeth and has a military/naval command structure; it is the Federation's primary military defensive organisation.

    Back in ST:ENT, some of the crew were upset about having 'military' forces aboard (i.e. MAKOs, Star Trek's version of space marines). But who were they kidding!? Quite a lot of series included segments where they were trying to improve the Enterprise's weapons systems!

  5. #55
    Grand Master markrlondon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    25,354
    Blog Entries
    26
    Quote Originally Posted by robt View Post
    Except it's still a murky and misunderstood area even now, it's far from being sorted out. The fact that people like Musk, Zuckerburg and Hawking can all disagree just proves how contentious it is.

    I happen to know quite a bit about modern machine learning and AI
    [... all of it ...]
    Thank you for a very interesting post!

  6. #56
    BTW, I forgot to post this heads up: Zavvi have a sale on right now, some pretty good deals for anyone that is looking for the Star Trek movies on Blu-Ray:

    All 10 original movies for £26

    All 3 new movies, 2D and 3D versions, for £15

    I bought them both, as I don't have any of them currently. TBH, I'm not a huge fan of any of the movies, but thought it was worth having them as a complete set anyway, as they are mostly OK, with some iconic moments. Apparently (can't confirm because it hasn't arrived yet) the only thing that is missing from the 1-10 set is the director's cuts, but it seems the only director's cut you can get on Blu-Ray is Wrath of Khan anyway, which can be bought on its own (the 50th anniversary steelbook with both versions is currently £9). Of course if you really care about that, you might want to invest in the full set of anniversary steelbooks instead.

  7. #57
    Grand Master TheFlyingBanana's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Bedfordshire and your back garden
    Posts
    23,179
    Quote Originally Posted by robt View Post
    BTW, I forgot to post this heads up: Zavvi have a sale on right now, some pretty good deals for anyone that is looking for the Star Trek movies on Blu-Ray:

    All 10 original movies for £26

    All 3 new movies, 2D and 3D versions, for £15

    I bought them both, as I don't have any of them currently. TBH, I'm not a huge fan of any of the movies, but thought it was worth having them as a complete set anyway, as they are mostly OK, with some iconic moments. Apparently (can't confirm because it hasn't arrived yet) the only thing that is missing from the 1-10 set is the director's cuts, but it seems the only director's cut you can get on Blu-Ray is Wrath of Khan anyway, which can be bought on its own (the 50th anniversary steelbook with both versions is currently £9). Of course if you really care about that, you might want to invest in the full set of anniversary steelbooks instead.

    Star Trek: The Motion Picture is a seriously underrated film, and even better in the Director's Cut version.

    I recommend it greatly - very intelligent sci-fi with a properly epic feel. In some ways it has more of a 2001 type feel to it than the other movies.
    So clever my foot fell off.

  8. #58
    Banned
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Torquay, Devon. Great place to work and relax. Love flying and lots of great sea walks.
    Posts
    2,551
    I loved the concept of the original Star Trek. A world united looking for alien life. Brilliant stories given on a low budget. Then it got silly. Laughable alien faces and costumes. Silly names like 'Crusher'.
    Then it got better again with Janeway.
    I'm looking forward but from the trailers I get the feeling it will be pro American propaganda crap. I hope I'm wrong.

    Brendan(webwatchmaker)

  9. #59
    Master
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Ayrshire
    Posts
    2,898
    Quote Originally Posted by markrlondon View Post
    Yes, they have been really clear about that. But it's bulls5!t. Really, it is. It always was. It was reflective of Rodenberry's utopian visions and is still a leftover from his ideas. The practical truth is that Starfleet is a military organisation: It is armed to the teeth and has a military/naval command structure; it is the Federation's primary military defensive organisation.

    Back in ST:ENT, some of the crew were upset about having 'military' forces aboard (i.e. MAKOs, Star Trek's version of space marines). But who were they kidding!? Quite a lot of series included segments where they were trying to improve the Enterprise's weapons systems!
    Yup every starship is essentially a weapon of mass destruction.

    Can you imagine what we would think if a starship appeared above earth . The crew informs us they are on a mission of peace and are not military but they are equipped with more firepower than the entire planet could muster.

    They have uniforms and military rank.

    They have infinite resources so there is no possibility of trade with them beyond trinkets.

    If we want to obtain their tech we'd have to join the federation as we'd have nothing else to bargain with.

    Our economies become meaningless overnight meaning we would be forced to join the federation or be consumed by internal wars.

    Then after we are forced inevitably into the federation we find we've become cannon fodder for the myriad wars the federation seems to provoke against any other race with equivalent technology.

    We've also just become a target for the regular world ending situations the federation's meddling seems to expose every fewdays.

    The Federation are as bad as the borg

  10. #60
    Master
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Chippenham ish
    Posts
    2,438
    This got super nerdy really quickly!!

    I have liked pretty much all the ST series and will certainly give this a go as there isnt a lot of decent SciFi around at the moment. Hope they put some effort into the story and characters and not just the special effects, all the good ones have!

  11. #61
    Grand Master markrlondon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    25,354
    Blog Entries
    26
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.D View Post
    Yup every starship is essentially a weapon of mass destruction.

    Can you imagine what we would think if a starship appeared above earth . The crew informs us they are on a mission of peace and are not military but they are equipped with more firepower than the entire planet could muster.

    They have uniforms and military rank.

    They have infinite resources so there is no possibility of trade with them beyond trinkets.

    If we want to obtain their tech we'd have to join the federation as we'd have nothing else to bargain with.

    Our economies become meaningless overnight meaning we would be forced to join the federation or be consumed by internal wars.

    Then after we are forced inevitably into the federation we find we've become cannon fodder for the myriad wars the federation seems to provoke against any other race with equivalent technology.

    We've also just become a target for the regular world ending situations the federation's meddling seems to expose every fewdays.

    The Federation are as bad as the borg
    Absolutely, but hence the Prime Directive. They know they are bad news to a less developed planetary culture and thus keep away until the culture develops warp technology on its own.

    It's a sensible and enlightened directive if you are a broadly benevolent space-faring culture.

    If one is feeling positive then it could have certain ramifications connected with the UFO phenomenon (which were in fact touched on in Insurrection).

  12. #62
    Grand Master AlphaOmega's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Trinovantum
    Posts
    11,313
    Quote Originally Posted by Velorum View Post
    Scotty: "Hey Kirky, I put some dilithium crystals in Spock's breakfast. He shouldn't bother us for a while."

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Do Not Sell My Personal Information