Reply With QuoteI wear my Rolex every day whilst working in West Africa........I think you should be able to manage Ok in London......you just need to be aware and manage the risks.Originally Posted by wileeeeeey
This just about sums it up for me. Its about managing risk. I have written and updated risk assessments for an annual London street procession. One thing I noticed since doing so, is that I am more aware of dangerous situations. Then one considers the severity of the risk and the likelihood of it happening. These two factors, the severity and the
likelihood, together quantify the risk.
I wear my Rolex every day whilst working in West Africa........I think you should be able to manage Ok in London......you just need to be aware and manage the risks.
Just the other day I saw this headline about a robbery on a road I drive down everyday
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4709118/Moped-gang-rob-Porsche-driver-kniefpoint-London.html
Dont know if the link will work if not just google moed riders rob porche driver and you should find it. Why he didnt just close the windows and sound the horn or something I dont know.
I suppose if you have a large knife jabbed in your throat you would hand your stuff over pretty lively
A bit of sense for a change. The risk is indeed minimal. It is so exaggerated that people distort the shape of their own lives. Safest to never go out. Who knows what danger could be lurking. Speak to someone and you could catch a disease...there has never been a safer time to be alive. Which is why people are living longer and longer.
Last edited by paskinner; 22nd July 2017 at 21:08.
Funnily enough I was watching some YouTube earlier and stumbled across some of this moped gang stuff. There's even videos the thieves have made while on the back of these mopeds, mocking the police, chucking a brick through a car window as they drive down a dual carriageway, kicking cyclists, angle grinding locks off bikes in broad daylight, throwing acid at people attempting to stop them, kicking other motorcyclists off attempting to stop them, smash n grabs at jewellers, riding onto pavements and grabbing phones off people.
It seems to be a fast growing thing in London, the video (not sure if true) said 22 moped gang crimes a day in London.
They are seriously brazen and don't care about people trying to stop them, very relaxed while stealing in front of people. They must be well practised at the bike thefts! Grinding locks off with cordless angle grinder, break the steering lock, one jumps on while the other on the moped pushes with their foot on the passenger foot peg of the stolen bike!
I've also seen the same people on multiple people's videos stealing or trying to bike jack youtuber's bikes!
Why can't the police setup a sting for them? Why would they want these things on the streets with knives and acid ready to kill people!
I know this has been done to death but an update from the Met Police Federation re moped/scooter crime below. Confirms they will not pursue anyone without a helmet and are asking for more powers to chase.
https://www.facebook.com/MetFederati...348665/?type=3
I thought this stuff only happened in areas like Knightsbridge where every other person has a Rolex. But hearing someone in Ladbroke Grove was mugged I worrying - I work there.
The spotters are watch experts, they probably use this forum!
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+1 to that and l'd also personally advocate them being shot in street if they've been flinging acid around.
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Thanks.
As a lifelong Londoner (albeit having lived in south Wales for a bit) I have to agree.
Thank you for the link.
It seems that they already have all the powers needed but a culture of political correctness prevents them from using their powers in a reasonable, rational and effective manner. Ken Marsh says that new legislation is needed but this seem like a diversion from the issue.
This quote is an example:
Well no, I can't imagine the public outcry in general, except from criminals and their supporters. I can, instead, imagine outpouring of public support for the police.He told BBC Radio London today (Wednesday): “If there are individuals on mopeds without crash helmets on, we will not pursue. It is common sense. If my colleagues were to pursue and there was an injury - you can imagine the ramifications of that. Imagine the public outcry if someone was to fall off their moped, hit their head and die.”
This (understandable) fear of political correctness doesn't need legislation to prevent it! It just needs the police to do their jobs and for the government to, as Ken Marsh requests, support them. Legislation is surely an irrelevance. This just needs government to lead by example in the fight back against political correctness, instead of further entrenching it.
It's a national policy from the College of Policing and the NPCC.
Officers feel very frustrated at not being able to pursue, but at the same time they know they'll be hung out to dry if they do and it then goes wrong.
There are only two outcomes when pursuing a scooter;
It crashes or
It gets away.
In the meantime this type of offence is on the rise and it's receiving a lot of press coverage because it the latest 'thing' but alas this type of crime has been around for quite some time.
The police do have some methods of dealing with it and there is a contingency put in place when it's triggered, but alas it's a case of not having enough available resources at the time to implement it that is hampering efforts because they are often dealing with other things at the time.
So self-inflicted, then....
They have bought into political correctness.
Understandably so but to call for new legislation to change policies that their own hierarchy have implemented is not persuasive.
Here is the key question: Hung out to try by whom? By their own hierarchy? By the government? By the British public?
If by the British public then the solution to this is for governmental support (as Ken Marsh was asking for) so as to point out to the public that this is what fighting crime needs.
But wait, would there really be a public outcry? In some very loud-mouth quarters, quite possibly, but in general? No, not in general. This is really an issue of fighting back against those loud-mouth corners and pointing them out for what they are. This is very clearly a role for both the police and government: They need to lead.
If the police rammed one of these guys off their bike, thereby actually doing something about the matter, I imagine the vast majority of the public would raise their glass in celebration. The whole thing is stupid, they're breaking the law, they need to accept the consequences. If that means the police kill the guy by ramming his bike, then so be it. The cretins need to be shown that there WILL be consequences for their actions, and they may be very very unpleasant.
But the law also applies to the Police, and dangerous driving or trying to injury someone with a car is illegal.
And there is the problem. This country is quite pathetic like that. Once you have blatantly broken the law, you should not have any rights like that. No different to defending yourself in a burglary etc, as Cameron said "When that burglar crosses your threshold, invades your home, threatens your family, they give up their rights".
The problem is that dangerous driving in a build-up area is as likely to kill and injury a passer-by as it is the criminal - so your example of a house-hold is an odd one - especially because in an accident situation, a trained police driver would be held to a higher standard of care that you or I.
As for what Cameron said - not sure why he'd say that because its demonstrately untrue in the UK.
If the law was that literal then exceeding the speed limit, even with lights and sirens, would never occur.
The truth of course is that it's not that literal and there really is nothing genuinely illegal about pursuing suspects (who could stop at any time) with or without helmets on.
Why disgusting? Unfortunately this is the world we live in and is just being realistic, not an excuse for the perpetrators.
I agree. I think the law does need to be altered to recognise this, but it is is nevertheless a somewhat different matter to the issue of the police pursuing suspects.
Last edited by markrlondon; 23rd July 2017 at 14:10.
Coming back to the fleeing scooter/moped/motorcycle thieves issue, it should be noted that this is not the problem specified by the police. It would seem that the problem is that their duty of care to the alleged criminal is being exaggerated out of all realistic levels due to a culture of political correctness, such that they are disallowed from pursuing suspects who have chosen to remove their helmet.
Of course, possible injury to passers by most certainly should and would be a legitimate reason to call off a pursuit but it really isn't the primary issue at hand here (so the police representatives say).
The problem is one of politically correct policy and interpretation of law, coupled with self-imposed policy, coupled with lack of support of support from government, coupled with outcry from a relatively small but vocal portion of the population. If we are to have governments at all then surely these are areas where they should be leading and being seen to lead, and being seen to tackle the cancer of political correctness head on.
Last edited by markrlondon; 23rd July 2017 at 14:15.
In which case if the suspect refuses to stop, then they reap the consequences :) If you were a suspect in a car refusing to stop, you could very well expect to get first hand experience of a PIT maneuver
Feel sorry for the police. If they did pursue and the rider came off and injured themselves it'll probably result in riots.
Just spent the weekend in London. My wife and I always wear our watches but I was much more conscious of them. Don't think I'd easily give them up despite them being insured.
They are just watches, give them up without a second thought. Then buy another.......
Theres a 5 part article here about the 2 wheeled crime epidemic in London. Its a sad state of affairs where our liberal politically correct society has ended up. Now the powers that be need to learn a lesson from this and protect our Police from persecution, so they can do their jobs effectively. It must be really frustrating to a be a copper these days, thats fore sure.
https://bikerandbike.co.uk/the-bike-...related-crime/
I dont wear a Rolex, but dont give a 2nd thought to wearing a nice watch and going about my daily business....
The point is that police on duty can be charged with dangerous driving the same way you or I would be.
To be honest this doesn't have a simple solution. In the past, scooters would in theory be chased but the theory wouldn't be tested too often. Once it was, people started getting killed and the policy couldn't realistically be to support that, there's no sympathy for the muggers but this isn't Judge Dredd and they can't be killed on the spot for suspected offences. In any case there's very little chance of catching a scooter in traffic when chasing with a car, so the odds of it ending with a convicition are low at best. Now the genie is out of the bottle and the muggers know for sure they won't be chased. To find a solution is hard. I've zero sympathy for the culprits and if chasing them would sort it out then great, but I'm not sure it's that simple without more imaginative solutions, e.g. trackers on all scooters, drones, who knows what... and that would probably end up getting used by the imbeciles at Islington Council to enforce the borough wide 20mph speed limit!
Last edited by Itsguy; 23rd July 2017 at 23:36.
Because it disgusts me that people should think it's the victims fault they were robbed because they have nice things. Perhaps we should all wear £5 watches and not own anything nice to encourage the poor misunderstood crims from committing crime.
How soon the headline "Man arrested for encouraging crime by wearing ridiculously expensive watch in public'?
Its been happening for years with rape and short skirts and skimpy tops.
Good luck everybody. Have a good one.
A guy on an MX5 forum had his family car stolen off his drive. The car crashed and killed the thief who was driving. His accomplices burnt the vehicle leaving his dead body inside. The police told the owner that his car would be examined, and if the crash had been caused because it had been unroadworthy, the thief's family could prosecute him.
Time to up the penalty for theft:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...n-thieves.html
Seen in Piccadilly adjacent to Bond Street today.
Probably a good idea
Interesting double meaning on that poster in this overly careful day and age.
Can just imagine the first person to get stabbed saying the posters said to keep my watch so I wasn't going to let them have it!
Being a fan of sci-fi I'm now sat here wondering if the day will come when the police have access to some kind of universal kill switch built into vehicles at point of manufacture... it would save a lot of chasing if a system could be developed and implemented. Even though some enterprising crims would always find a way to remove them it would stop opportunistic moped muggers and car thieves from doing a runner and becoming a terrible risk to everyone
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Quite so. Did you not notice that I addressed this specific point in the very message which you quoted and to which you replied?
Let me re-address it here: It is of course true that a police officer could be charged with dangerous driving if there is evidence that he was driving dangerously or negligently, as is right and proper. But the law is not absolute; it can be, has to be, and is applied with discretion. Indeed, if fear of being accused of dangerous driving was such an issue then there would never be any police vehicular pursuits at all, whereas we know that such pursuits can be justified, can and do make sense, and can and do occur.
Furthermore, not every police pursuit results in a charge of dangerous driving for the police! If anything, the fleeing suspect (who, let's remember, could stop at any time) is surely more likely to be charged with dangerous driving. Now let's consider the pursuit of a scooter/moped/motorcycle-born suspect: If the suspect removes their own helmet then this does not magically any officer guilty of dangerous driving. Indeed, from where I am sitting I would that the officer would be negligent in his duty if he did not pursue the officer, subject to the safety of passers by. The suspect could, of course, stop at any time or replace their helmet at any time. The suspect is always responsible for their own safety.
So whilst it is true in a literalist and unthinking work-to-rule sense with no concept of sensible discretion to say that the police could be charged with dangerous driving, if there is evidence of such, it is also wholly absurd to use this as an excuse for not pursuing certain types of suspect. It really cannot reasonably or logically apply to where the suspect chooses to remove their own helmet (as long as passers by are not put at undue risk).
Is there is an example of where a police officer was charged with dangerous driving simply for pursuing a scooter/moped/motorcycle-born suspect, without or without helmet, where passers by were not put at undue risk? If so, then this is the problem that needs to be addressed; it is not an excuse! If it hasn't happened then there seems to be no reason to overly fear it at this time.
This issue looks very much like a situation that the police have largely made for themselves, albeit due to inculcation with a number of decades' worth of politically correct politicisation by more than one government. Both the government and the police can and should lead on fighting back against this vacuous and asinine political correctness. The need is now demonstrably present. We are seeing the unequivocal result of political correctness in action.
Last edited by markrlondon; 25th July 2017 at 02:43.
Obviously the hoodlum didn't know that the Rolex was not ISO 6425 compliant.
He should have looked for someone wearing a Seiko Monster.
That's a useful idea. And / or mandate a tracker built into the bike somewhere deep in the engine, in such a way that thieves couldn't disable it without also destroying the bike. Though as mentioned in my previous post, they'd probably end up getting used to issue automatic speeding tickets for riding over 20mph, so in some ways I prefer your plan. It will also be necessary to track electric bicycles, they have a big future but are high value and as hard to secure as conventional bicycles.
Surely it should also be possible to have a better method of preventing scooters being started than a conventional ignition key? Again, there should be something deep in the engine that recognizes if you are carrying a fob in your pocket, that would be impossible to disable without ripping the engine apart. Why is it still possible to easily 'hot wire' a scooter in the year twenty seventeen? If regulations insisted on a better system, would that not solve the problem in the long run?
PS - just saw this: Stinger devices deployed to help stop moped crime
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/s...87016310349d9f
For those who think this is 'moral panic', paranoia or silly season journalism, the article states that scooter crime has gone up 1600% over the last five years according to the police.
Last edited by Itsguy; 25th July 2017 at 08:25.
I would imagine a tracker company should be making a killing at the moment! You can get tiny trackers and why not have two, one in easy location for the scrotes to find when they check and one hidden very well. Maybe one with wireless charging that could be dropped into a frame section or something.
Unbelievable!
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I Agee with your comments on Bolton.
I was born there. What an absolute dump it is now, take a look down Newport street! There is one certain councillor that's helped to make the place like it is today.
I don't go into Bolton if I can help it.
Prestons pulled out because the place just isn't fit to have an AD in it.
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Because it's £500 per tracker. £300 for the unit, £100 labour and £100 for the first year's service. Have one on my GSA. I can only hope it's hidden well, I'm not sure where. It is myself.
From BBC news: The scooter crime wave that has swept London
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40731485
It's worth noting that a major factor in this is the number of zombies walking down the street glued to their mobile phones, with no awareness of their surroundings, which is both rude and irritating to other pedestrians who are forced to move out of the way.
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