Reply With QuoteOriginally Posted by MikeGreen
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Morning All,
Recently had an old Cymaflex serviced and was going to have the dial restored as well but then decided on a service only after reading a lot of dial restoration horror stories. This is not to say I believe the company who service the watch wouldn't have been up to the job of a dial restore, just to clarify.
The watch has sentimental value but equally it would be lovely to have it spiffed up and wearable again.
Still wary of the whole restore business because while I can see it really needs doing I'm nervous about the process!
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I can count the number of dial restorers in the UK on one hand.
Most places that say they restore dials send it off to these guys.
Problem for you is that they won't takes watches in, just dials and often won't deal with you unless you are trade.
On this type of watch I would strongly advise having the dial refinished. It isn't a partucularly valuable watch, or a watch in a category where originality is absolutely paramount to maintain value.
A refinished dial will never look exactly the same as it did originally but you'd need to be an expert with a loupe to spot the difference. One thing's for certain, the watch never looked like this when it was new, and a refinished dial will get much closer to the original appearance.
I would go back to the repairer who serviced it and ask him to get the dial refinished. Cost should be around £80+ fitting/postage back and forth to the refinisher.
Paul
Thank you for your advice Paul.
Much appreciated.
Mike
No doubt some of these firms do send off their dial restorations to another individual/company.
As long as the jobs a good one!
Cheers.
Dial refinishing is highly specialised, repairers send dials to spwcialist firms to get them done.
The term 'redial' is ambiguous and misleading. In some cases a replacement dial can be sourced and fitted (unlikely on something old), a similar dial from another watch could be fitted, the original could be cleaned and improved, or the original could be completely refinished. If there are other options I don't know about them .
Paul
No matter how "specialised" re-diallers might claim to be I've rarely seen a good one; clearly other people's opinions vary but it very much depends whether your desire is for a very new and sparkly looking thing or something that looks like it belongs to a vintage watch and might actually appear to have been executed by the original manufacturer.
In your position I'd start looking for a replacement original dial. I'm not sure if yours is solid gold but there are appear to be a few 9ct models on Ebay; this is good news as it means that some will have been scrapped, leaving loose dials and movements (potentially useful as a spares donor in the future) for sale. You need to know the calibre in your watch so that you get one with the right dial feet and also the diameter of your dial as there maybe some variation for different cases. With a bit of patience I'm sure you'll find what you want. I can't see any NOS replacements but these look promising based on a preliminary search for Cymaflex (I'm sure a more painstaking search just using Cyma will also bring up more).
https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_f...c&LH_PrefLoc=2
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MOVIMIENTO.../112480231352?
If you do get yours re-done, there's no going back. As a minimum, if I was considering to go down this route, I'd get a basket case from Ebay for a tenner and get that re-dialled instead.
Thanks. Another avenue to consider!
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Refinished dial beats a scruffy original in myy opinion. Contraryy to the previous post I've seen some excellent refinished dials and I`ve had several done myself. A really smart original is better, or an original with very light ageing, but once they get scruffy they let the watch down. As for finding replacement dials on ebay, good luck.....I think you'll need it. Often, the sellers don`t know what movement the dial's from, and there's also a question of getting the diameter correct.
Paul
It's also worth mentioning that the design/style of this dial is a lot simpler than that of others out there so that might allow the person working on it to do a better job.
As others have said, it's hard to come across someone that can do a good job on redialing a watch dial but those people exist and I, too, feel like you should go with it.
You could also buy a similar dial and either have it replaced or keep it in reserve in case the original one won't come out the way you like it.
Doesn't webwatchmaker on here offer dial restoration done in-house?
I'm sure Brendan said to me some time ago that either he can do them or knows who can, drop him a message.
I'd be interested in seeing any before and after people may have?
I have been looking for a vintage Longines dial for my Dad's watch but repair could be an option. I'm just sceptical of it looking right. On this particular dial the clear lacquer is missing over the sunburst blue in one small part but it has taken some of the white text on the lower part of the dial.
I've had similar dials to this refinished ( I haye that bloody silly term 'redial') by David R Bills and the tesults have always been fine. Frankly, this watch looks sad and scruffy as it is. Refinishing the dial would, in my opinion, transform it.
What does the owner want to see?..........he needs to ask himself that question, it's his decision.
Paul
I was just going to suggest David Bill and sons, Paul.
OP, if you go on their website there is an example of a Rolex dial, before and after refinishing.
Last edited by Guido-K; 18th July 2017 at 08:48.
Sincere thanks for all your well considered replies.
Watch is going off to David R Bill today.
Will post back with the result!
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Bills are fine, but sometimes the plates they use don't match perfectly or they use the closest ones they have. Also they can't do finishes in the paint such as sunburst as seen on almost all Rolex non sports dials.
For your dial they will do a good job as it's a flat colour with no finish in the paint or complicated text/numbers.
Good to know.
Cheers!
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Vintage watches often had an extremely fine sunburst finish in the silvered layer under the lacquer and that's something that can`t be replicated. Bills will usually get the colour very close and usually get the font very close. The quality of finish has always been excellent in my experience, but as I`ve already stated there are limitations. In some cases there are patterns in the metal and they still show through after refinishing, I¬ ver ahd a couple like this and the results were very pleasing.
It's a trade-off; for a watch that's not particularly valuable ( and I include several of my Omegas in that category) I think it pays to have a scruffy dial refinished to improve the aesthetics of the watch. I`m a great believer in having a watch looking like the item the original buyer purchased......the guys who bought these watches didn`t buy something with a heavily tarnished or water-damaged dial, or a watch that's covered in scratches. Some people seem to struggle with this; seeing a 1950s watch look virtually the same as the day it was sold can be perceived as 'wrong' because people are so used to seeing them with 'patina' to a greater or lesser extent. !950s Omega Seamasters are a good example; some of these watches had contrasting brushed/polished finishes but the majority out there are either evenly scratched all over or have been refinished (wrongly) by uniform polishing.........often on a polishing machine thus losing the definition of the edges (if it still remained after 50+ years of use).
Another point to consider when looking at an old watch: it may have had the dial refinished 30+ years ago and that finish has started to deteriorate, so what you're preserving isn`t actually the original finish!
I think the OP's made the correct decision for this watch and I hope it all turns out well.
Paul
Another point to consider when looking at an old watch: it may have had the dial refinished 30+ years ago and that finish has started to deteriorate, so what you're preserving isn`t actually the original finish!
Indeed!
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You may need some luck but the rest is just doing your homework. For example I've picked up replacement, original dials for these two with just some carefully set up Ebay searches and regular checking. Both dials were purchased for between a quarter and a third of your suggested cost of a re-dial and were actually made by the manufacturer rather than being an artist's impression of an original dial.
You just need to know the calibre and the diameter of the existing dial - not exactly rocket science.
Looking at David Bill's website I see this shining example. How difficult can it be to make an arrow on a Memovox dial the right size and shape and similarly with the text?
They've made a similar mess of this Breitling:
The difference is perhaps not easy to see with this side-by-side juxtaposition but I suggest you have a look on their website and use the drag widget. The artistic licence with the subdials is such that I would actually start thinking of it as a fake. It certainly doesn't add anything to the commercial value of the watch and any serious collector would run a mile.
https://www.davidbill.co.uk/gallery
Of course this is their best work if it's on their website.
I understand that a poor condition dial can make it difficult to love a watch but there are other ways of dealing with it rather than re-dialling it and yet you are always so quick to dismiss these out of hand.
I would hate it to come to a situation where every newbie with a scruffy watch comes to TZ-UK and gets packed off to a re-dialler without a second thought.
I appreciate your opinion and if I was less of a newb I would have seriously considered your suggestion instead of a refinish.
For me I'll be happy with (hopefully!) a very close a approximation of the real deal. Even though to some it'll look wrong. I have no plans to sell it, ever, so a collectors possible viewpoint won't be a consideration for me.
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I appreciate what you are saying, but are we sure the changes were not at the owner's request?You may need some luck but the rest is just doing your homework. For example I've picked up replacement, original dials for these two with just some carefully set up Ebay searches and regular checking. Both dials were purchased for between a quarter and a third of your suggested cost of a re-dial and were actually made by the manufacturer rather than being an artist's impression of an original dial.
You just need to know the calibre and the diameter of the existing dial - not exactly rocket science.
Looking at David Bill's website I see this shining example. How difficult can it be to make an arrow on a Memovox dial the right size and shape and similarly with the text?
They've made a similar mess of this Breitling:
The difference is perhaps not easy to see with this side-by-side juxtaposition but I suggest you have a look on their website and use the drag widget. The artistic licence with the subdials is such that I would actually start thinking of it as a fake. It certainly doesn't add anything to the commercial value of the watch and any serious collector would run a mile.
https://www.davidbill.co.uk/gallery
Of course this is their best work if it's on their website.
I understand that a poor condition dial can make it difficult to love a watch but there are other ways of dealing with it rather than re-dialling it and yet you are always so quick to dismiss these out of hand.
I would hate it to come to a situation where every newbie with a scruffy watch comes to TZ-UK and gets packed off to a re-dialler without a second thought.
Money don't matter 2 night
This is my other watch. Think this may be a redial also?
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Last edited by MikeGreen; 21st July 2017 at 05:49.
Do you have a model reference for that; or more pictures? A Google image search for Oris Big Crown Propilot does not return a single picture of a watch with those lugs or a lone crown at 2. The way that Swiss Made doesn't curve with the edge of the dial also looks fishy.
I'm leg-pulling
It is a Huaweii W1 smartwatch.
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I've used Bills and would agree but I was severely disappointed. I use these guys and was frankly blown away with the result:
http://www.watchdialrestoration.co.uk
You may need some luck but the rest is just doing your homework. For example I've picked up replacement, original dials for these two with just some carefully set up Ebay searches and regular checking. Both dials were purchased for between a quarter and a third of your suggested cost of a re-dial and were actually made by the manufacturer rather than being an artist's impression of an original dial.
You just need to know the calibre and the diameter of the existing dial - not exactly rocket science.
Looking at David Bill's website I see this shining example. How difficult can it be to make an arrow on a Memovox dial the right size and shape and similarly with the text?
They've made a similar mess of this Breitling:
The difference is perhaps not easy to see with this side-by-side juxtaposition but I suggest you have a look on their website and use the drag widget. The artistic licence with the subdials is such that I would actually start thinking of it as a fake. It certainly doesn't add anything to the commercial value of the watch and any serious collector would run a mile.
https://www.davidbill.co.uk/gallery
Of course this is their best work if it's on their website.
I understand that a poor condition dial can make it difficult to love a watch but there are other ways of dealing with it rather than re-dialling it and yet you are always so quick to dismiss these out of hand.
I would hate it to come to a situation where every newbie with a scruffy watch comes to TZ-UK and gets packed off to a re-dialler without a second thought.
I agree. Some people just don't see the detail and would be happy but I totally get what you're saying. Like that triangle, why would they make it so wrong when they've got a reference point, then the logo size discrepancy?!
Let's face it, the actual printing capability is there so why not make it identical? It's not even like the jlc is close. And if it was a customer request, they'd say that on their website so people can understand, surely?
Another one that gets me is re-luming. I've seen some bad stuff people have posted and they've even argued it's 'good as original' when it clearly is way off. And I'm not saying a different re-lume can be terrible in it's own right but I just don't like it when someone tries to say something is identical to OE when it's clearly not.
Yep they are good guys, I would almost always send my dials to http://www.vsonidials.com
Interesting; if I were the OP I'd be getting my watch back from David Bill pretty sharpish.
To my eye the before picture here is of a redial so it's difficult to make a proper comparison but this is approaching the sort of standard where it becomes worth considering. Unlike David Bill.
The Paul Newman on there makes me wonder if they have any hand in the Bamford stuff, or is that done in Switzerland somewhere?
The marque in drop caps on the original looks so much better than in the redone pic. Why was it changed?Interesting; if I were the OP I'd be getting my watch back from David Bill pretty sharpish.
To my eye the before picture here is of a redial so it's difficult to make a proper comparison but this is approaching the sort of standard where it becomes worth considering. Unlike David Bill.
The Paul Newman on there makes me wonder if they have any hand in the Bamford stuff, or is that done in Switzerland somewhere?
Why was anything changed? I'd much rather have the original dial in the condition it's in than the refinished one.
I thought the original looks wonky and I don't think it's correct; happy to be proven wrong though.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=vi...PLE5xEqgEZ4eM:
I can't claim to fully understand the details of the refinishing process, but I do accept there are limitations. Sometimes the identical font and size can't be produced and you have to accept the closest available.
I'm a pragmatist not an idealist, when deciding whether to have a dial refinished I try to visualise the complete watch and how the dial will look. Sometimes a refinished dial makes more sense, other times it' s better to stick with a slightly aged original even if it's looking a bit tired.
One point I will emphasise: I actually DO this, I make the judgement calls, I back my judgement and advise accordingly.......that' s a whole lot different to giving idealistic opinions on a forum!
If Soni can get the very fine starburst finish correct on old dials I'm willing to try them; frankly I didn't realise they were still operating. I've used C&F a couple of times on jobs that Bills couldn't do.......the results were acceptable but not perfect and one had to be done again.
Clearly, there are several factors to consider and sometimes a compromise has to be reached; it's easy to forget that sometimes.
Paul
1970's Heuer Monaco service hands are different to the original ones fitted at the factory.
Aren't Rolex replacement dials slightly different as well.
If the manufacturers can't get it right.........
Paul, that's nonsense. This is an enthusiasts forum where we all DO this inasmuch as we do our research and make judgements in terms of what to do and what not to do. The fact that you service watches doesn't give you any special aesthetic powers from what I've observed. If you had some insight to add because you had tried your hand at dial making (like Bob Frasier has, for example) I'd very interested in what you had to share (it clearly isn't easy). Given that we've had another watchmaker come up with a recommendation for a dialmaker seemingly capable of much better work than the one that you've come up with doesn't incline me to be more sympathetic.
Given the redial actually gave the watch the correct font for the CYMA logo (!) I'm not sure what else is at fault with the redial in particular?Interesting; if I were the OP I'd be getting my watch back from David Bill pretty sharpish.
To my eye the before picture here is of a redial so it's difficult to make a proper comparison but this is approaching the sort of standard where it becomes worth considering. Unlike David Bill.
The Paul Newman on there makes me wonder if they have any hand in the Bamford stuff, or is that done in Switzerland somewhere?
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So am I, that's my point. It's a (far superior) redial of a redial (in my opinion). Given this example and in your position I'd be looking to get my dial back from David Bill (assuming you've sent it) and send it to these people, on the basis that you don't appear to want to look for a loose original dial.
To be fair Paul isn't the only person to be recommending David Bill is he? I guess everyone's mileage will vary. My watch is already with DB and I'm not inclined to pull out of the "deal" now.
As I have tried to explain what I know about watches would fit on the head of a very small pin and I guess I'm taking the line of least resistance in getting it refinished, but there we are.
I will let you all know how it goes. Feel free to say 'told you so' if it all goes pear shaped. I hope it doesn't.
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Last edited by MikeGreen; 24th July 2017 at 18:38.
I guess it depends what you are happy with.
Personally when looking at watches a repainted dial stands out at me like a slap in the face, others may prefer new and shiny looking on vintage regardless of accuracy.
I've redialled a couple of watches in the past but only with a correct vintage replacement dial. They are around if you are patient, as you have proven C-B.
Cheers,
Neil.
When Paul restored my late father-in-law's 1955 Favre-Leuba, I'm pretty sure that he sent the dial away to David Bill to be restored. I was very happy with the outcome and thought the dial work was every bit as good as everything else that Paul did to restore the watch.
Simon
Last edited by mycroft; 22nd July 2017 at 12:44.
OK, I concede, I don't know what the f**k I'm talking about.......the purists win the day!
Paul
Last edited by walkerwek1958; 22nd July 2017 at 23:32.
Looking at the various examples provided, I would be more than cautious going down the redial road. Rather a genuine dial with faults or an original vintage dial from eBay.
Last edited by Raffe; 23rd July 2017 at 07:55.
Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.
You know that's a daft statement Paul! You know what you prefer, as you've said on many, many occasions you believe watches should be brought back to as near as how the designer intended them to look when they left the factory as possible. If this involves a redial and case polish you see no problem with this and you regularly offer your opinion where people are asking advice. A lot of other people (me included) prefer keeping a watch as original as it can be, this includes leaving the dial as it's survived (or replacing with a better correct original example if possible), the same with the handset, and not polishing or re-brushing the case. To me it doesn't matter what the monetary value of the watch is, that is how I prefer to tackle these jobs and a good proportion of my day to day work is sent to me specifically because it's known I won't go down the refinish/polish route (or more importantly try and persuade a customer to do so) if I can possibly help it so there are plenty others who think along the same lines. That's not to say I've never refinished a dial or re-polished a case, I have on many occasions (if the customer insists it is their watch after all) but I will always try to persuade a customer to cosmetically leave the watch as it's survived and get the dial and handset as clean as possible along with the case parts. As I've often said it's only original once! However, this doesn't make my conserve approach any more valid than the restore one or vica versa, I do however think when people are asking advice it's good to hear from both sides of the argument. It's not about "winning the day" it's about helping people make informed decisions.
Indeed, and also helping them to formulate their own preferences, which may or may not be the same as our own (and may or may not be wholly knowledge-based, these are subjective assessments after all).
It's almost as if the terms 'refinish' and 'restoration' have become universally frowned upon thesedays, which is a shame. Originality, which means different things to different people, has clearly become sacrosanct and should never be meddled with.
I hope the OP's happy with his watch when it returns with a refinished dial; I think he will be.......and that's what counts.
In future my inputs regarding restoration/refinishing of watches will be prominent by their absence. Despite my best efforts to remain objective whilst still stating my own preferences there seems to be a groundswell of opinion that will always decry any form of cosmetic restoration. On that basis I shall no longer attempt to put forward the case for doing so........leave 'em all looking scratched and scruffy.
Paul
And original.
I think you're taking this disagreement with your point of view far to much to heart Paul, there's plenty of room for restoration and conservation. Some will favour shiny, others will favour original, neither approach is completely right or completely wrong.
No personal experience but I have a pal in the trade who has had several redials done and he rates Vsoni way higher than David Bill. To be honest he has had to reject a V Soni dial as not good enough but they re did it to a good enough standard to impress him. He did comment that David Bill seem to never answer the phone or respond to email either which doesn't inspire confidence. V Soni can do very impressive sunbursts so that is one advantage straight away.
Last edited by Padders; 24th July 2017 at 12:30.
What I can't understand is why in this day and age of high tech everything, why can't refinishers match the original?
I mean, they were painted to start with, so why can't the tech to match or even surpass a vintage dial's finish exist?
I'm old school BTW, and would never have a dial redone unless absolutely vital.
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