Reply With QuoteWatch Repair Centre Newcastle ;-)Originally Posted by Bobbyf
Hi, can anyone recommend a place where I can get my 009 regulated in the North East? It's consistently running 12 seconds per day slow. I know that this is within the specs but I've read it can be improved a little.
Thanks, Rob
Watch Repair Centre Newcastle ;-)
Just to say here, it's really worth trying this yourself. There is a small regulator lever that can be pushed a few degrees rotation with a toothpick...
Web image; (Just Google 'Seiko 7s26 Regulation');
Right, here's my advice.......unless you have a Timegrapher do not attempt to regulate a Seiko yourself.Just to say here, it's really worth trying this yourself. There is a small regulator lever that can be pushed a few degrees rotation with a toothpick...
Web image; (Just Google 'Seiko 7s26 Regulation');
Moving the regulator makes the hairspring behave as if it's slightly longer or shorter; this will alter the time taken for the balance wheel to oscillate back and forth and hence alter the rate of the watch. The better watches have a method of fine adjustment where a screw operates a cam to move the regulator a tiny amount; this gives far better control and it's therefore feasible to adjust a watch on an iterative basis. ETA 2892 and 2836 are good examples; there's a graduated scale and one division equates to between 6 and 10 seconds change. The old Omegas with swan- neck adjusters are a joy to regulate, it's a very easy task to alter the rate by 1 or 2 seconds.
As for the Seiko, there's no fine adjustment. You can attempt to move the regulator but it'll invariably move too far because it sticks. It needs moving by a very tiny amount and you end up going back and forth until you get it right. It's not that easy with a timegrapher, but without one you're pissing in the wind. In theory it can be done but in practice you'll drive yourself crazy trying to do it, you could end up wishing you'd never touched it. I've just regulated a Miyota movement with a similar set-up and it's not easy, it took me a few attempts using a timegrapher and I won't be pleased if I have to alter it again.
Strongly advise you to put up with it (have you tried running the watch in a high state of wind consistently?) or give it to a repairer to adjust. It's also worth checking the watch is correctly in beat and check the amplitude's good. Regulating a watch to compensate for an underlying problem is never a good idea, it rarely succeeds.
Paul
I have read a few accounts of people regulating them themselves. Has anyone (non professional!) here had a go?
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Why do I bother spending 10 minutes typing a reply
Someone will invariably have had a go and got lucky, by all means try it yourself..........I wouldn't.
Why do I bother spending 10 minutes typing a reply
Someone will invariably have had a go and got lucky, by all means try it yourself..........I wouldn't.
Lead a horse to water, can't make it drink......
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Paul's advice is sound.
Wouldn't say you've got it running badly anyway for a 7s26.
Just a thought: could something be used to mark both the inside and outside ring of the regulator so you can see the original position and thus gauge accurately how far it has moved? Then when the job is done, wipe it off?
It would have to be something that could be wiped off easily, but won't flake off by itself and gum up the movement. Perhaps something like a dry-erase marker? Could then remove it with a cotton bud and some 99.9% IPA.
Maybe not a complete replacement for a timegrapher, but could save a lot of trial-and-error.
Another suggestion: try leaving it face up overnight one night then crown up the next night. Time it both times and see what results you get. It's unlikely the positional variance is so good that this won't change that 12 seconds you're seeing. Might be a lot easier than regulating it, if one of them goes the right way.
Paul could probably tell you off the top of his head which position is most likely to make a 7s26 speed up. I can't.
Yes, many times with 7s26 movements. It really is an almost imperceptible amount you will need to move it though, and watch you don't snag that spring! You can get it far better than plus or minus 12 seconds and is worth persevering, despite the nay sayers, although their advice is obviously meant with good intentions.
I bought an 009 here on the forum that the owner said had been dropped and was losing 3 minutes a day. It was actually 1 minute when I received the watch. I had to move the lever probably half a mm on that (a country mile), followed by 2 or 3 tiny adjustments over the following week and it's now within seconds a day. Wear it to work Monday to Friday (movement now in an old seiko 5 case cos it gets battered) and no perceptible time loss or gain over the five shifts. It normally runs down then over the weekend and needs resetting anyway.
Having said all that, with a non hacking movement I would rather just wind it on a minute or so every week than "break the seal" on a waterproof dive watch.
Ha! Please don't despair Paul, I will be taking your advice and I appreciate the time you and others took to help me. It would appear that our posts were made within a few minutes of each other and crossed over. I have just checked the thread again this morning and seen yours. Thanks again, RobWhy do I bother spending 10 minutes typing a reply
Someone will invariably have had a go and got lucky, by all means try it yourself..........I wouldn't.
Last edited by Bobbyf; 11th July 2017 at 07:35.
I wear the watch everyday so it is well wound. I have tried leaving it in different positions overnight and have not had much luck with it. I will try it again and will also try going to bed earlier to give it more time to work!
This is probably my main concern with doing it myself. It sounds like I would have to be taking the case back off over and over to get this right and let's face it- it would be most definitely a case of trial and error due to this being my first go!
I might keep an eye out for an old seiko watch that I can use as my practise piece.
Thanks again everyone.
Buy a fifteen quid one from India on ebay, you can practise hand swaps and all sorts then.
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Good points. If the slowness is due to it needing a service, then its a stop gap measure to regulate it. If you get it serviced, regulating it will be part of that as well.
Suggest you try this again, but make a note of the time before and after in each position. Just checked one I`m regulating, it's gained 3 seconds overnight (8.5 hrs) to give a rate (dial up) of +8.5 secs/day. Obviously this isn`t exact, the +3 could be +2.75 or +3.25 depending on how good you are at comparing the seconds hand to your reference timer, there's a limit to how carefully you can measure, but it gives a good indication of what's going on. In my case the watch is running around 8-9 secs/day fast in that position and that's good enough to work with and decide whether to make further adjustment. Repeat this in different positions and it'll become clear which positions are faster or slower. Having established the fastest position simply leave it in that position overnight. The likelihood is that it'll be the dial-up position but that's not a certainty. Taking these measurements will indicate how good (or bad) the positional agreement is too. Dial-up and crown-down are the positions that supposedly have most influence on the overall rate for a typical wearer who wears the watch on his left hand.
Back to my own example, a Smiths Everest with the Miyota movement, I have to decide whether to make a further adjustment. On the wrist it's running approx. +3 secs/day, dial up it's running around +8 to +9 secs/day, overall based on 16hrs wear and 8hrs dial-up that should give a rate of around +4.5 to +5 secs/day. Here's the dilemma: even with a timegrapher it's a challenge to decrease the rate by a small amount. Ideally I`d knock this back by 2 secs/day to give an on the wrist rate of +1 and an overnight rate of around +6 or +7. That would equate to an overall rate of +2.5 to +3 secs/day and the owner would be even happier.
With a sophisticated fine adjuster this would be easy, but the chances of moving the regulator on this movement (or the Seiko) by the desired tiny amount is virtually nil, so it'll be a case of going 'back and forth' till the timegrapher gives me the number I`m looking for........then the watch needs running a couple of days to confirm it's doing what it should.
The easiest ones to regulate are the Omega 550 and 1010 range, with a swan-neck style regulator that allows a small screw to work against the regulator. One-eighth turn of the screw in either direction will increase or decrease the rate by a small increment, and if it ends up too fast or slow you can always turn it back again by a small amount, all you need to do is draw a little diagram on the notepad to indicate the position of the screw slot and how much it moved........simples!
I don`t know how much the cheap timegraphers from China sell for these days but it's worth buying one of you have a few mechanical watches. They certainly make life far easier for those trying to regulate their own watches.
Finally, a note of caution! By coincidence the postman's just delivered a Seiko, a watch that the owner's tried regulating himslef, and it's had a traumatic episode........hairspring's now completely mullered so it'll need a new balance.
Paul
My 007 purchased December 2015 was virtually spot on in the first six weeks I tracked it where I think there was a gain of 10 seconds approx in total. Now there is a loss of up to 18 seconds a day but have noticed this loss decreasing to 15, then 12 and now sits at 10 seconds loss per day. I reset every Monday morning at work whilst pondering where the weekend went.
Yorkshire Watches advised not to self regulate based on internet advice as it is tricky and risky. I am glad I left well alone.
I may have it regulated in future but would rather have a watchmaker do it.
Yes - if you search my name on Mods & Wreckers the whole tale is there with photos.
I used an old Seiko 5 to practice on and also bought a Timegrapher app for the phone. Even so, it drove me a bit nuts and I wouldn't advise doing it unless it's the process that interests you rather than the result.
If that's the case, have a go on something semi-disposable.
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I've had a read of your thread which makes me even more sure that it would take me forever and a day to get any improvement myself. I'm pretty sure that along the way I'd manage to damage the spring, nip an o ring and make matters far worse! I'm not frightened to ever have a go at things myself but think it would be best if I practice on an old watch first. Watch is currently dial up on the table and as of 08:25 it was 24 seconds slow compared to BST so I'm interested to see how much it loss/gains by 20:25 tonight.
Rob
I have tried doing 2 seiko 7s26c movements.
The seiko 5 went well and is around 3 seconds fast while the sk007k i messed up and hit the spring(or something else) and now its a minute fast or slow a day.
I think its worthwhile personally but try on a cheap one first.
Timegrapher machines can be picked up new for about £120, generally 2nd hand ones will fetch £90ish. If your interested on the innard workings of a watch, want to learn how it all fits together and works then I'd say go for it and buy one but if it's for a one off regulation like others have said leave it to the professionals otherwise you could do more harm than good, that'll also include more cost getting it fixed.
Must admit I love mine, so quick and easy to see how a watch is performing. Only at the early learning stages but once you start it's addictive :)
At the moment I'd say it's probably not worth me shelling out on expensive equipment but I am going to keep my eye out for a cheap watch to play about with.
I checked the time on the 009 at 21:15 (almost 13 hours dial up) and it's now running 35 seconds behind BST so it's lost 11 seconds in this time. That's actually more than the fairly consistent 12 seconds it loses when worn 24 hrs a day. I've given it a wind and it's now in the crown down position for the night so we'll see how it fairs in the morning.
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Yes I dropped my SKX173 onto the bathroom floor and from then it sped right up so I opened it up and after a couple of regulations with a toothpick got it to an acceptable rate
you must only move the one that regulated the time and not the other one - so take pictures before and after to make sure
You'll be doing well, this watch doesn't hand wind, movement of watch only, I'm afraid.
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Yes I know, I should've been more specific. By giving it a wind I mean I went for a run wearing it!
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Good to hear. I'd hate to picture you winding and winding the crown futilely!
You'll get a better wind by lightly hitting the side of the case opposite the crown off your other palm. You can hear the satisfying whirr of the rotor too. One minute of that should give it a decent reserve.
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When I do this, initially I can feel the rotor moving inside and after a minute or two the rotor doesn't move so much. I take it this is due to the movement being wound up? I know this is basic stuff to you guys but if you don't ask you don't get an answer!
I had a go with a Seiko 66B movement and was quite successful, but only after a period of panic and 'why did I star this' feeling. The watch ended up going for a service anyway because despite getting the timing down to a few seconds a day, it would often stop altogether unless given a shake - the exit pallet was incorrectly set, so now it's sorted it's running beautifully.
Not ever reached a point I couldn't hear the rotor spinning.
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Must be my limp wrists getting tired then!
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Sometimes the rotor settles at a point that's in a straight line with the angle it's striking your palm, just tilt the watch and try again.
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Just in case anyone's interested I've carried out some more accurate tests for positional variation on my 009.
12 hours Dial up -11 seconds
12 hours Dial down -3 seconds
12 hours Crown up -6 seconds
12 hours Crown down -7 seconds
I've checked the timings again when it's worn for 24 hours and it's still losing 12-15 seconds over that time.
It would seem my 009 is bucking the trend slightly by losing the most time when left dial up (approx 22 seconds a day) and loses the least time when left dial down (approx 6 seconds a day).
I know it's within spec but as it's slow in every position I guess it could be worth sending it for regulating?
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I find it quite a volatile movement. It's reliable in general (after all, it's in millions of watches!) But it does seem to lack consistency of performance but at its price point that's nothing to moan about. Mine is typically 25 secs a day slow. On holiday last summer it was averaging +4 per day. Not sure if the heat was improving it. I'd say yours was one of the better ones. I'd set it 30 secs fast, then, every 5 days or so, I'd move it forward a minute.
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That's what I do at the moment, I set it a minute fast and adjust it when it's a minute slow. I know it makes sense just to keep doing that- I'm just being fussy! I don't suppose it would be cheap to get it regulated either which is a consideration bearing in mind the overall cost of the watch etc. Thanks for your advice
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Set one of mine ten mins ago after wearing it an hour to get it going - hasn't been worn in a month and it is -5 seconds . That's not too bad
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It's 5 seconds down after 10 minutes?
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Lol. Sounds horrendous!
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I picked up a really nice 009 recently and, after four days of testing, the best performance I could get was +10spd. I understand that's not too shabby for a 7s26 but it's too much for me so I set about regulating it - the first time I've ever tried this.
Those who say you hardly need to apply any pressure to the regulator are certainly correct. With what I thought was the tiniest of movements it went from +10 to -20spd. Damn.
So I tried again and it went to +20, then -47.
At this point I was considering getting it done professionally. It was also at this point that I found this thread and it made me think I'd made a mistake.
Thing is, I can't ever walk away from something like this. I have to crack it. It drives my wife mad.
Anyway, I've got it to -1.6spd through very little skill, lots of luck, a bit of patience and a steady hand.
I wouldn't recommend it though unless you've got the time and patience to keep trying and testing. I don't have a timeographer so was testing it at 24 hour intervals using the Watch tracker app.
In addition to regulating it I've replaced the insert with an all-blue one and I think it looks pretty splendid.
Happy days.
I don`t trust any app, I use the Timegrapher and I check performance against an accurate 3-handed quartz watch or my Casio digital.
Suggest you confirm performance against something that's trusted and reliable, like your favourite quartz watch with a big sweep seconds hand, this takes any nuances of the app/phone/computer out of the equation. I got mislead like this a few years ago and it's a mistake I won`t repeat; unless you know the phone is accurate to the second every second of the day, and you're sure about how it achieves this, you could easily fool yourself . Take the simple option, that's what I do.
Ironically, I'm in the middle of regulating a Seiko at the moment and it's not easy, even with the Timegrapher. I had the watch running +15 dial up, but it's nigh-on impossible to move the regulator by a small enough increment to take this to around +5 where I`d like it. Even with experience and a steady hand I end up going back and forth until it ends up looking right on the machine. The watch then needs testing too see what it's really doing and the process goes on.
I`ll regulate these after servicing them, that goes with the territory, but they really are a pain to get right. Add to this the inevitable positional variation with a cheap movement, plus the sensitivity of the rate to falling amplitude, and it becomes a challenge to get them running well. At the end of the day the owner wants the watch to give a good overall performance, that's understandable, but don't expect miracles. The limitations of the movement, plus the difficulty in regulating, will see to that.
They are what they are.....they're cheap mass-produced movements that don't leave the factory very well adjusted. The latest 6R15 Seikos have an Etachron-style regulator and mounting stud which looks impressive but achieves little IMO; if they went the whole hog and copied the ETA fine regulator I`d be more impressed, but they haven`t.
Rate vs amplitude is a parameter that makes a difference if the watch ends up running in various states of wind; wearing a watch one day then leaving it off the next day is an example of how this happens. I wore my Datejust last Saturday, then left it unworn till Monday. The watch was still running and I put it on the Timegrapaher. Amplitude was down to 157°, but the rate was +1. Fully wound, with amplitude of 290°, the rate is around +3 dial-up, so there's very little change with falling amplitude. Not wishing to compare Seiko vs Rolex, I`m merely pointing out one aspect of the quality difference between the cheap stuff and the expensive. The free-sprung balance helps, that's probably why the rate variation was so low.
Good luck to those who wish to regulate their watches with phone apps etc..........you'll need it.
Paul
Thanks Paul I'll do that sense check
What tool did you use to get the tiny adjustments?Thanks Paul I'll do that sense check
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A wooden toothpick so as not to touch metal with metal and actually it was more tactile too so I felt I could be more in control of it.
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