Water softeners

[domwells]

Our house is coming up to 1 year old and I'm wondering if it's a good time to invest in a water softener system.
Based in Bedfordshire, so the water is hard and we have an inline electrolytic scale master fitted by the builders but it doesn't do a great job.

There seems to be a couple of big names, Harveys and Kinetico with twin tank non-electric being the main model they peddle.

Firstly, any real difference between the brands? And secondly, £1500 seems to be the going rate fitted... Is that crazy money?

Oh, and it's a 3 bed semi with 3 bathrooms so nothing too palatial.



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[Saint-Just]

Kinetico will be pricier. You have quite a few brands (ebay) that work on the same principle. The topic was already discussed but I can'tsearch as I am on my mobile and Tapatalk.
I have had one fitted, the difference is striking (Kent, very hard water too) and I will not hesitate to have another. It's cheap enough to maintain (salt, about 2 blocs per month for me but as I said water is really hard) but price wise you are in the right ball park.
Unless you have a hot water tank be prepared to accept a small drop in flow.

[IAmATeaf]

I had one fitted by EWT at the start of May this year. I did a lot of reading and opted for a metered unit that takes tablet or crystal salt as opposed to block salt that costs a lot more. EWT came and fitted mine for 705 plus I purchased 2 bags of salt from them at 10 each just to get me started. Purchased 5 bags of 25kg salt tablets online which cost 44 delivered. My friend referred me so I also got 50 knocked off the total.

For me, family of 5, my 3 kids are all over 18 I've found a bag lasts around 6 weeks.

No affiliation with EWT but I was quite impressed with them, their install engineer came and fitted the softener exactly where I wanted and plumbed it so that everything is softened excluding my external water tap.

Any questions feel free to ask, not a water softener expert but I'll help if I can.

@SJ is yours plumbed in using 15mm piping? I had mine plumbed in using 22mm in order to minimise any drop in water pressure.

[Saint-Just]

I shall check. Also everything softened bar the exterior one and an extra tap with an inline Brita filter for drinking water.

[IAmATeaf]

Yes I've also got a drinking tap with an inline filter fed from an unsoftened supply.

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[Thewatchbloke]

I had mine replaced two months ago, I went from a tablet salt electronically metered Permutit Sensatronic 411 model to a Minimax block salt twin tank one. The Minimax is made by Harveys and is almost identical to their own block salt model, I imagine the inner workings would be identical. My previous tablet salt model needed the bed regularly raking up to stop a solid salt crust forming at the bottom of the brine tank, it also switched you to hard water when regenerating which to be honest wasn't a huge problem as it was timed to regen at 03.00. The reason I went for block salt was I got fed up with carting 25kg bags around whenever the old one needed refilling, this meant SWMBO couldn't actually top it up as she couldn't lift the bags up and carry them in from the shed.

With the Minimax there's no break in soft water delivery as when one tank is regenerating it switches supply to the other, it doesn't rely on electricity to meter itself and the missus can now top it up without a problem. There isn't a huge difference in price of salt if you shop around, taking the post above 125kg of tablet salt came out at £44 or 35.2p per kg, I buy block salt in bulk at £2.67 + VAT for 8kg (two blocks) which works out at 40p per kg. The Minimax is a lot less hassle to run than the old Permutit was and takes up less room. There's only me and the wife here along with the youngest son when he's home at weekends and I use two blocks about every three to four weeks. It cost £1,200 all in and that was with the fitter ripping out all the old copper pipework and isolators and replacing with full flow valves along with 28mm flexible couplings to the unit. I've had a softener now for almost 30 years and wouldn't be without one!

[MB2]

I too have a Minimax M2 - I was told the flow rate was better than Harveys but it came with Harvey's Salt and as you say looks identical.

Mine was installed in 2012 and went wrong this year (leaking from the casing) and effectively the entire machine was replaced under warranty I only had to pay the call out charge.

When it was off line for a couple of months I really missed it - makes cleaning so much easier and washing & shaving so much nicer. If it failed I would replace immediatley.

Block Salt is much easier and more convenient and I don't find the running cost excessive (you can also put salt tablets in there but not granulated salt).

[bambam]

Another vote for the Minimax - ours was about £880(?) - hard to tell as we were having loads of work done so it was harder to break out the individual costs. But works really well.

Where is a good place to buy the blocks in bulk as we spend about £5 (just under) for a bag of 2 blocks?

Cheers

[IAmATeaf]

This is where I ordered my salt tablets from http://www.simplysalt.co.uk looking at their prices for block salt even if I ordered 50 packs the price per kg gets no where near the price quoted by thewatchbloke so I too would be interested in case I can get tablet salt even cheaper.

[domwells]

Thanks for the responses, I didn't manage to find the old thread when I searched previously but have read it now.
I'm thinking either the Harvey's (or Minimax) or Kinetico sounds like the way to go.

Is there an issue with pressure drops when the twin tank system regenerates?

[Thewatchbloke]

I get my salt from Harringtons as they have a depot just a couple of miles away. They deliver for free too but they only serve the Berks and Surrey areas I believe, there's a list of postcodes they'll deliver too on the website.

http://www.harringtonscalorgas.co.uk...lock-salt.html

*Edit* Prices don't include VAT which takes my block salt to 40p per kg, still very good though!

[solwisesteve]

As mentioned in the other post. After several different models over the last 25+ years we replaced our old one with a non-electric monarch

http://monarchwater.co.uk/product/plumbsoft-solo-ultra/

ISTR it was about £700 on line. I did the install myself and this was a LOT easier to do with the kitchen not fitted yet (I did the plumbing before the kitchen fitter started his work).

As mentioned before we seem to get 7 or 8 years out of them before they go duff; invariably deciding to leak water everywhere!

Water pressure can be an issue so I've always gone for a unit designed for high flow/low back pressure and 22mm pipes used. Also we don't have a combi (I like a pumped shower and you need a proper tank for that) but, I guess, if you did then you'd need to be extra special with the water pressure.

[MB2]

Another vote for the Minimax - ours was about £880(?) - hard to tell as we were having loads of work done so it was harder to break out the individual costs. But works really well.

Where is a good place to buy the blocks in bulk as we spend about £5 (just under) for a bag of 2 blocks?

Cheers

I buy mine direct from Harveys - although still works out about 5 a pack so I don't think that is bad. I stock up once a year normally and just keep it in a line in the garage - the water softener is in the garage so is handy.

[MB2]

This is where I ordered my salt tablets from http://www.simplysalt.co.uk looking at their prices for block salt even if I ordered 50 packs the price per kg gets no where near the price quoted by thewatchbloke so I too would be interested in case I can get tablet salt even cheaper.

Thanks - that looks much cheaper than Harvey's for Harvey's branded salt !

[solwisesteve]

I buy the 25Kg sacks for about £8 a bag buying enough for two of us for a year (a bag lasts about 2 months - I purchased 10 bags last week). Typically I found the bagged salt to be half the price of the blocks (per Kg).

[domwells]

I've booked in a local installer to take a look and go through the options next week, they do a few different models.

I'll feed back on my experience in case it helps anyone else.


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[IAmATeaf]

I've booked in a local installer to take a look and go through the options next week, they do a few different models.

I'll feed back on my experience in case it helps anyone else.


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Make sure you tell him/her exactly what you want and how you want it fitted, their response to this should give you a good idea whether to go with them or not. As I said above I insisted on a softener which has high flow inputs and then insisted on all the plumbing be done in 22mm. Making sure the softener has high flow is important as if the softener only has 15mm inputs/outputs then you might well experience pressure/flow loss.

I did a lot of reading before I went with the ewt 606 unit and most professionals were saying that a single chamber unit is all that a typical family needs. One advantage the single chamber units have is that they have a much larger resin bed which means more softener water before the unit needs to regen. Also unless your family is in the habit of using 100s of litres during the day then doing a regen in the evening is fine. Mine according to my area is set to regen every 700 litres which it does in the early hours so there is a chance that a regen is needed during the day but from what I've seen it still keeps on producing softened water but it might be that the resin in that state might not be as effective but I don't know.

[Andyg]

We have a Hague Maximiser (about 5 years old) and uses salt pellets.

Kitchen drinking water is via a single Brita tap (which does the Normal hot/cold supply). Although the amount of salt in a "softened" glass of water is about the same as a slice of bread.

Its reliable, low power and very effective.

[Thewatchbloke]

there is a chance that a regen is needed during the day but from what I've seen it still keeps on producing softened water

A single chamber unit will switch to hard water to supply the house as it's regenerating, if it didn't you'd end up with allsorts coming out of your taps. On the backwash stage (typically 15mins) you could get a lot of particles and extremely hard water, on the brine introduction stage (typically 30 mins) you'd get a 10% brine solution (sodium chloride) as that's what's used in converting the exhausted softener resin back to the sodium form. It then needs to be slow rinsed to remove the brine then finally a fast rinse. You wouldn't want to drink, wash or cook with anything that comes out of the resin chamber whilst all this is in progress! Once the regen process is complete it will switch back to the softened supply.

[Saint-Just]

I am not sure I understand the salt in the water: there is a little salty water left in the resin at the end of a regeneration but it goes in the first couple of litres. At least that is true of Sodium chloride.

[IAmATeaf]

A single chamber unit will switch to hard water to supply the house as it's regenerating, if it didn't you'd end up with allsorts coming out of your taps. On the backwash stage (typically 15mins) you could get a lot of particles and extremely hard water, on the brine introduction stage (typically 30 mins) you'd get a 10% brine solution (sodium chloride) as that's what's used in converting the exhausted softener resin back to the sodium form. It then needs to be slow rinsed to remove the brine then finally a fast rinse. You wouldn't want to drink, wash or cook with anything that comes out of the resin chamber whilst all this is in progress! Once the regen process is complete it will switch back to the softened supply.

What I meant is that mine is set to regenerate at 3am when we are all asleep and it will delay the regen until 3am if water usage results in a new red to regenerate.

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[Thewatchbloke]

I am not sure I understand the salt in the water: there is a little salty water left in the resin at the end of a regeneration but it goes in the first couple of litres. At least that is true of Sodium chloride.

There should be no brine left in the resin tank after a regen, I was commenting on what would be present if the domestic flow was routed through the tank whilst regeneration was taking place. Impossible under normal circumstances but if the disc valve wears significantly the domestic water can get tainted whilst regen is taking place if it is drawn at the same time, I had a couple of disk valve rebuilds on my old unit. Not bad in 27 years of use though!

[Saint-Just]

Agreed. I was actually replying to Andyg, although many people in other threads have mentioned the idea of a saltier water.

[IAmATeaf]

Agreed. I was actually replying to Andyg, although many people in other threads have mentioned the idea of a saltier water.

A lot of people say and think that the salt is actually used to soften the water. Had to explain to my brother inlaw that this was not the case the other day and I'm sure he still didn't believe me.

[domwells]

Thought it would be worth providing an update.

We had the Kinetico chap out and had the 2 green washing up bowl demo, very impressive and totally sold the mrs on the need for a softener.
He quoted at just over £1500 all in, but I wanted a second opinion.

My brother had a nest thermostat fitted by a little while ago by a plumber / heating engineer and spoke very highly of him, turns out the guy's main line of work is water softeners... So, I discussed the options with him and he managed to sell me on the benefits of the Harvey's unit albeit under the DualFlo brand.
He popped round and we discussed my requirements, including having the option of hard / soft water for the garden tap so that I can wash the car with soft water. Very impressive guy and certainly knows his stuff! Quoted just over £1400 and threw in a boiler service as he's gas safe too, which was rather handy.
All fitted now, excellent job all round and I'm totally sold on softened water!

Thanks for the responses to the thread everyone and if you need a very handy heating engineer / water softener chap around Milton Keynes drop me a PM and I'll send you his details.

[MB2]

Thought it would be worth providing an update.


He popped round and we discussed my requirements, including having the option of hard / soft water for the garden tap so that I can wash the car with soft water. Very impressive guy and certainly knows his stuff!

Be aware that the soft water will still spot on the car (I know) so you will need to dry it off thoroughly - it will still sud better and water marks be easier to remove so is worth doing.

[domwells]

Good to know, at least, as you say, it should be better.


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[markdotreed]

I'm about to have mine replaced and am going for a Greatwater 1400 series, mainly as it comes with a ten year warranty and uses block or table salt. It's also a relatively new design and more water efficient than the one it's replacing.
It's £700+vat

[Ethos]

Has anyone used these with a mains-pressure hot water cylinder / in a high flow situation? The concept sounds great but the house has 4-5 bathrooms!

[domwells]

I'm about to have mine replaced and am going for a Greatwater 1400 series, mainly as it comes with a ten year warranty and uses block or table salt. It's also a relatively new design and more water efficient than the one it's replacing.
It's £700+vat

Sounds reasonable, is that a single resin tank?
Presumably it's an easy fit as you have the attachments already from your last set up?


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[domwells]

Has anyone used these with a mains-pressure hot water cylinder / in a high flow situation? The concept sounds great but the house has 4-5 bathrooms!

Ours is without a cylinder and the water pressure is still very good post softener install. Had 5 bar apparently so loads of headroom.


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[MB2]

Has anyone used these with a mains-pressure hot water cylinder / in a high flow situation? The concept sounds great but the house has 4-5 bathrooms!

You need a high flow one - I was recommended the MiniMax M2 which can run my 3 bathrooms simultaneously (have a MegaFlo) although I also have an accumulator which sits in the middle.

That was the one the plumber recommended in order to keep up with the rest of the system. He specced the system to allow for an extension in the future with only the boiler needing a possible increase if added 2 more bathrooms (& that was to heat the house not the water).

[markdotreed]

Sounds reasonable, is that a single resin tank?
Presumably it's an easy fit as you have the attachments already from your last set up?


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I'll be honest and say I took the easy route and phoned a developer mate of mine who said he puts these in all his new builds. It's very compact as you can see here.
http://greatwater.co.uk/water-softeners/pro-series-1400

He also recommended the No.1 Tapworks Ultra 9 at £450+ vat as a budget option.

[domwells]

Wish our developer had done that! All we got was a scalemaster...


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[P ELLIS]

Be aware that the soft water will still spot on the car (I know) so you will need to dry it off thoroughly - it will still sud better and water marks be easier to remove so is worth doing.

you can get an inline filter that goes into the hose to stop this , window cleaners with the pole fed systems use them and you don't get spotting as well as not really needing to leather it . I keep threatening to do it but get side tracked on other silly projects

[ray_li30]

Got a Harvey unit install when we moved into our new build 3 years ago. One of the best things we ever did.

[MB2]

you can get an inline filter that goes into the hose to stop this , window cleaners with the pole fed systems use them and you don't get spotting as well as not really needing to leather it . I keep threatening to do it but get side tracked on other silly projects

It is a DI vessel and I have one of those and it works brilliantly. I use soft for the wash bucket, hard for the rinse bucket and then trickle DI water over the car and walk away even in direct sunlight. I spoke to the window cleaner and they use RO water then pushed through 2 x DI vessels (old one first) but they are using a lot of water of course.


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[~dadam02~]

Excellent thread, we are thinking about installing a water softener so this is invaluable.

[RobDad]

Moved into a house with a softener 2 years ago and tbh I have no idea how it works! - apparently this is a very hard water area, and without one you’ll go through dishwashers and washing machines rather regularly, but they seem very expensive what with filter changes for the drinking tap and the salt (ours is tablet salt and having initially paid £12 for a 25kg sack which lasts about 6 weeks I now buy in bulk for about £7 for 25kg) - had our softener serviced a few months after we moved in, apparently the model we had (BWT something or other) had been recalled so they replaced the whole unit as part of the £99 service charge. We have 6 bedrooms and : bathrooms so gets a bit of use I guess


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[IAmATeaf]

I had an EWT gold softener installed in May and so far all is good. Cost around £700 and EWT came and fitted it and a filtered drinking water tap too.

Got a referral from a friend of mine so we also both got £50 off. Ours is a metered unit and for a house of 4, sometimes 5 adults a 25kg bag lasts around 6 weeks.

Went for a single chamber unit over a dual tank as this unit can take tablet salt and from what I’ve read duals cost almost double price and the block salt unless you buy a pallet works out more expensive.

[Inspector Cluedoh]

Our house is coming up to 1 year old and I'm wondering if it's a good time to invest in a water softener system.
Based in Bedfordshire, so the water is hard and we have an inline electrolytic scale master fitted by the builders but it doesn't do a great job.

There seems to be a couple of big names, Harveys and Kinetico with twin tank non-electric being the main model they peddle.

Firstly, any real difference between the brands? And secondly, £1500 seems to be the going rate fitted... Is that crazy money?

Oh, and it's a 3 bed semi with 3 bathrooms so nothing too palatial.



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I've had a Harvey water softner for the last three years. Absolutely brilliant, It works on water power so there's no faffing with electrical wiring. It uses two salt blocks.
You just keep an eye on them and eventually you will see a red line thats the time to renew the blocks.The shower tray and surrounds and kitchen sink are easier to clean no more limescale drops over the kitchen sink and shower glass,and there's no limescale in the kettle. Lovely soft water for showering. If you do go for the Harvey's make sure you ask for their qualified plumber, I say this as there have been some reports on the web of other plumbers not fitting the unit properly and later leaks.

It only works if you are using your house water. So if you go on holiday it won't be wasting salt. If you can afford it, it's a must.

[Thewatchbloke]

I had a single tank electric powered "smart" softener for 27 years. Whilst the soft water benefits were great the missus has never been able to lift the 25kg bags of tablet salt to load into the machine and I was fed up of having to periodically break up the crust of salt on the tank's floor. I upgraded to a Minimax (a Harvey's with a different badge) twin tank, water powered block salt one a few months ago and couldn't be happier. I can keep the replacement salt blocks in the same cupboard as the softener now as they don't take up much room (before I had to keep the 25kg tablet salt bags outside in the shed) and the wife has even replaced them a few times

[MB2]

I too have a Minimax and find it excellent. It went wrong after a few years and I basically got a new machine for the call out charge under their 10 year (?) warranty and missed it while it was out of action. If you have the space to buy the salt in bulk it is easy to store and as you say the bags and blocks are convenient to move and load too.


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[Saint-Just]

Are you in Paris, France?

[Riley]

To the OP.
I see you are in Hertfordshire.
I get my salt from Gilmores in Aylesbury, they deliver if you order 10 bags.

[mart broad]

Our water is very hard so we had an under sink no electric softener installed



It regenerates when it thinks it needs to no timers as i said no electrics can obviously switch between hard and soft water for car washing ,gardens etc uses block salt which i get three bags or six blocks for £15.00 delivered.
Cost £1500.00 i round figures ,three bedrooms two bathrooms and the usual dishwasher and washing machine setup.
So far very happy.
https://www.twintec.com

[Riley]

We have the Tapworks AD11
http://www.tapworks.co.uk/domestic-water-softeners/

4 adults in a 2 bathroom house, simple to install, bag of salt every 4-6 weeks. It was recommended by a softener engineer when our old one gave up.
It's been in 3 years now with zero problems.

[Thewatchbloke]

Our water is very hard so we had an under sink no electric softener installed

It regenerates when it thinks it needs to no timers as i said no electrics can obviously switch between hard and soft water for car washing ,gardens etc uses block salt which i get three bags or six blocks for £15.00 delivered.
Cost £1500.00 i round figures ,three bedrooms two bathrooms and the usual dishwasher and washing machine setup.
So far very happy.
https://www.twintec.com

That's a rebranded Harveys softener, just like my Minimax - excellent machines.

[solwisesteve]

Our water is very hard so we had an under sink no electric softener installed



It regenerates when it thinks it needs to no timers as i said no electrics can obviously switch between hard and soft water for car washing ,gardens etc uses block salt which i get three bags or six blocks for £15.00 delivered.
Cost £1500.00 i round figures ,three bedrooms two bathrooms and the usual dishwasher and washing machine setup.
So far very happy.
https://www.twintec.com

£1500 sounds a bit painful... I assume that includes the traditional plumbers scandalous installation rates.

We're on our third softener in about 25 years.... and the latest was purchased in 2015 for about £550 (now c. £650). We seem to get about 10 years out of them before they need replacing. The latest is a Monarch Solo which, like yours, is a twin tank no electrics which makes life a lot easier

https://www.tradingdepot.co.uk/monar...c-aqdsoloultra

I'm also noticed, with each generation, that the running costs have gone down. Our first unit used to last about 4 weeks on a full bag of salt (we use bagged salt 'cause it's cheaper) but this latest model goes about 3 months on a bag, needing a top up about once a month.

[IAmATeaf]

Mine from EWT is still going strong but it is one that needs power, it monitors water usage and then regens when required.

Main reason I got it was to help with the kids eczema but it doesn’t seemed to have helped at all?