You can never tell what's around the corner can you? My cousin had a party today and it's been in the planning for months. My girlfriend and I live near the hotel it was being held at and we were going to walk, but last minute, my girlfriend decided on different shoes and asked if we could get a taxi, which we did.
Thank G-d we did, as it was only a couple of mins journey, and on arrival, my uncle looked white as a sheet; long story short, a little girl of 15 had collapsed and was breathing agonally (gasping but it appears they're breathing). It was awful; I saw her on the floor and feared we were too late.
There was a gym downstairs and some staff were already giving CPR but I think without my girlfriend who's a fully qualified nurse, things would have been very different. She took over until the fast response arrived (they took a lot longer to arrive than we expected) and the latest info is the girl had a heart attack but is stable.
Amazingly, for a very high end gym with pool and all sorts, there was no defibrillator on-site, and it was one of these machines (after two shocks) that got her heart beating again and allowed her to breathe by herself when the paramedics arrived.
Seeing the whole scene was shocking and I realised I had no idea what to do, so I'm going to pursue a course and hopefully learn at least something. Any recommendations?
Last edited by W44NNE; 10th July 2017 at 00:01.
St John Ambulance is the place to go, you can book a 1 day local course via their website and it cost around £40. I did it a couple of years ago and will be do a refresher next time is runs here. You could also become a first aider at work and they'll send you on a more advanced course.
I'm self employed but the St. John's Ambulance option sounds like exactly what I was after. I'll check it out now. I've never done it because I'm super squeamish and concerned I'll pass out myself if they talk too in-depth lol. However today couldn't have been a more real prompt.Originally Posted by bonzo697
Hats off to your girlfriend Wayne.
Managing an arrest can be difficult with all the kit you need around you and then it's much more difficult without kit and when faced with a child arresting in front of you. Hopefully she will make a decent recovery and the gym will think about investing in a defibrillator as early defibrillation when indicated saves lives.
As for courses have a look into a BLS course near you as it'll give you the basic skills to commence resuscitation until the paramedics arrive.
Finally, it's agonal breathing rather than agnostic!
Edited the final bit but another good recommendation so I'll look into that as well. Yes she did an amazing job and just took it in her stride as if she was at work. Third time she's had to publicly resuscitate somebody; incredible.
What a story. 15 yrs is not really a heart attack related age when you come to think about it!
About first aid/reanimation course: more and more people overhere attend these courses. Often colleagues or football team mates. My parents did their first course when they were in their 70s. They went to that course with other 'pensionados'. Perhaps an idea for a TZ-UK GTG?
It's now just over 6 yrs ago when I got struck by a heart attack. And I was lucky enough to be picked up by an ambulance very quickly; the ambulance station is only 5mins from my house. I remember being in the back of that ambulance with lots of pain, but with a fully normally working brain, thinking "This is it, I am going to die in the back of an ambulance." Strangely I wasn't panicking, 'complacency' is perhaps a better word. I noticed that the ambulance people got in a hurry - more and more: speeding up, siren, and the nurse who was taking care of me really put in an effort. That was comforting in a way.
What I am trying to say is that people lying on the ground can be very much aware of the fact that others a trying to take care of them and that it helps them to try to stay alive.
Perhaps not the most accurate way of telling a story, but I hope it gets across.
Menno
was it a heart attack or a cardiac arrest?
I'm asking because I've just done a first aid course with the Red Cross on Saturday, and we were told not to attempt CPR on a person having a heart attack if they are still responsive
Surely that's common sense?
Two points to note.
The first is difribulators, I agree all gyms should have one the problem is cost not just to buy but once they have one the staff have to be trained and every 12 months or so it has to be opened and checkered even if it wasn't used. But they should be required by law in my opinion.
Secondly going on a one day course is a great idea but like everything in life it's about practice and repetition, you need to do a refresher course every year, recommendations change and you just forget the details.
But hats off to anyone who takes the time and pays the money to train. When my son was born we did the first aid for children course.
We had St John's come in and do a first aid course for a day at our office a few years back. What really stuck in my mind was that considering we all often sit in an office with everyone for close to 10 hours a day; there's a pretty good chance that if someone's going to happen to you at a younger age you'll be around your colleagues. It was a real eye opener.
I now work by myself in a shed at the bottom of the garden. Nobody is coming to save me lol.
Do you want my phone number? I wouldn't mind popping round to see if I could help.
I used to have regular training but this thread prompts me to seek a refresher.
Thanks very much for the offer! I'm on so many conference calls a day though I would hope that someone would notice if I wasn't around. Also only 33, with no allergies (requiring an Eppie-pen) so my chances of surviving the day are pretty good :)
But yeah, a refresher is definitely a good idea. It does make you question whether you know whether the person to the left or right of you in an office has a nut allergy, where their pen is, and ultimately try not to freak out if it happened.
I realised my lack of first aid knowledge last week. Not as extreme as yours, but one of my 1 year olds tripped up in our front room and split her head open on the corner of our coffee table. Although it was good to take her to hospital to get her checked over, I realised I could have done what they did to close the wound at home to stip the blood sooner with simple equipment - cotton wool, clean water, steri strips and a bandage.
Now looking for a decent first aid kit as well as a course to attend.
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sorry, got my wires crossed a bit there. no CPR if they're still breathing
If it's agonal breathing then CPR is advisable, but there is a difference between normal and agonal breathing.
From experience when you hear agonal breathing you will probably recognise it.
If you can spare the time and money I would suggest doing a first aid at work first aid course a lot more detailed then the one day courses.
Defibrillators are great and the public access ones are fool proof, follow the instructions and the machine decides to shock or not, a lot of them also have a metronome so you can time your CPR to it.
If you don't like the idea of mouth to mouth resuscitation then just administering chest compressions is better than nothing.
If your going to buy a first aid kit check the contents, normally you can build a kit for cheaper, the important thing is to make sure you know how to use what you have in it, for instance my kit contains items most people would never consider using but due to training I've undertaken and have a refresher every three months I'm happy and confident to use what I have.
well done matey, and to think you can get a half decent unit for £1000-£1500, maybe its time to do a fundraiser in her name, for the Gym to get one, or a letter to them pointing out things could have been very different, and maybe they should invest in one.
terrible to witness that but great that your girlfriend was there
Statistics for cardiac arrest out of hospital are terrifying - think its a 10% survival rate without a Defib machine, but rises to 90% with a defib, even without trained users as they are now automatic
I had my own experience of a heart attack at 46 whilst riding my bike up a very steep hill. Luckily one of my pals I was riding with is a First Aider with his company and could see I was in trouble and called an ambulance well before I would have thought to.... 3 hours later I had 3 stents in.
So the value of a basic first aid course can truly be life saving
Thanks for sharing this details.
That's a very good idea actually. The only thing is, it's a Village Hotel and I really feel they have more than enough money behind them to purchase one of these machines, but in her name makes a lot of sense for a fundraiser.
I'm going to pursue it all with the gym and take it from there. I was actually going to sign up to this gym this week as well, but now I'd prefer to know there's all the correct safety kit on site.
St John ambulance do courses as already mentioned, so do British Red Cross, i've done them with both and they were equally good. One was a 1 day 'emergency first aid at work' which covers CPR and a few of the basics, the other was the 3 day full 'first aid at work', which is a bit more in depth.
A sobering comment made to me on one of those courses regarding heat attacks at work. When you have a heart attack, it can start by you feeling nauseous, so, where to you go, a cubicle in the toilet, how long could you be in a cubicle at work before someone noticed you were missing and went to look?
It sounds like she was in cardiac arrest or in such a low cardiac output state that her heart wasn't pumping effectively. A heart attack is when the heart is lacking in blood supply, whether that being from an artery blockage or low blood pressure or infection etc but is still managing to maintain an output. In arrest the pump has stopped functioning and needs resuscitating and sometimes needs electricity to correct the aberrant arrhythmia.
If you see agonal breathing you'll know it's abnormal. It sounds like someone drowning without being underwater and they won't be responsive at that point so you should start CPR.
https://youtu.be/pioQSVEUpP0
Mouth to mouth is one of those things that really concerns me as you never know who is carrying a blood borne virus so I carry one of these in my car / workbag:
https://www.jaxfirstaid.co.uk/produc...nt=28431686215
and one of these on my keys.
http://www.firstaid.co.uk/Resuscitat...CABEgJzjPD_BwE
It should be mentioned that survival prehospital depends on a lot of factors, and lots of cardiac arrests aren't amenable to defibrillation. The best thing to focus on is good quality CPR until help arrives, but never forget to call help in the first place.
I did a St John's Ambulance course for work a few months ago and it's pretty intense, but if I'm being honest, I still don't think I'd know what to do.
You can't absorb all the information required in three days, and it's stuff that qualified people take years to learn. I know the basics now but it's having the confidence to step in and help. I seriously don't know if I'd feel comfortable just because I have a plastic card that says I'm a First Aider.
In the situation you describe I probably would have been sitting her up with her head between her knees and looking for her inhaler in the assumption she was having an asthma attack, while the heart was slowly giving up. Do you see what I mean? I wouldn't necessarily know she was having a heart attack.
I really wanted to do the course because I thought it would be a good thing, especially as we have two young kids. They give you a huge First Aid book and I suppose I should be browsing this every night to keep the knowledge fresh but …
I hope the girl's made a full recovery? 15 is very young to be having a heart attack. Scary!
I had to call an ambulance for a work colleague a few years back. I'd walked into his office and found him slumped over his desk semi-conscious, sweating profusely and with a few other colleagues standing around him not doing a single bloody thing, they were so preoccupied with asking each other what they should do and generally panicking they hadn't done anything!!! In short, the person who I spoke to on the 'phone whilst waiting for medical assistance to arrive talked me through the situation, asked me questions and advised me on what to do before the ambulance crew turned up. As it turned out he'd had a severe reaction to new medication that he was taking for the heart and lung issues that he was suffering from, we'd had a conversation about it only that morning about him being on new meds...
If you see someone who is requiring medical assistance please don't ignore it, even if you're not trained in first aid. Raise an alarm, call for assistance/first aider, call for an ambulance - just do something! Calling 999 will get you through to someone who can advise you on the situation even if you don't know what you're doing, their advise can help save a life with your assistance.
I've changed jobs since and typing this out has made me realise how lapse the first aider situation is at my new place of work. My other employer used a colour identification system (different hair net colour to regular colleagues) and this was mentioned in employee inductions, ultimately it meant that you new who was a first aider and who wasn't even if you didn't personally know those people. I've been at my new place for 6-7 weeks now and wouldn't have an (employer informed) idea as to how to deal with a medical issue or accident. Given the global status of this employer I find this quite shocking and is something that I'll now raise with the on site QEHS team.
I'm seriously considering buying an Automated External Defibrillator & training the family how to use it. The nearest public access one is half a mile away from my house which is too far for somebody to go & fetch if it's needed.
I recently bought several, one for each of our businesses and one for home. They are designed so that anyone with an ounce of common sense can safely use them without training.
Surely it's about time that schools starting teaching basic first aid. This is a skill that everyone should have, especially parents.
I had to do bystander CPR once. Due to the age of the person and the circumstances I didn't think the outcome would be good, it wasn't.
I have had continuing basic life support training for years and to be honest the process of initial assessment and actually doing CPR was straightforward. Even though I did everything right I still thought about it a lot afterwards. I dread to think how I would feel if I wasn't trained and did what everyone else did, which was to stand around aghast. This was bang in the heart of central London at 2pm so there were plenty of passers by. The City Police came and got an AED from a nearby office. There wasn't a shockable rhythm.
I am happy that as a bystander I did all that could be done to give them that little bit more of a chance before qualified help arrived. I can't imagine how it would feel to be completely helpless if it was a loved one. I suppose I would feel incredibly guilty that I hadn't done some basic training......
I've administered cpr twice in my life whilst waiting for an ambulance once with success and once without, the one without was first and I was pretty well up on first aid etc at the time I don't mind admitting it caused me some sleepless nights afterwards did I do this right etc etc. The ambulance crew did their best to reassure me that I had no chance and it was an older guy with a massive heartattack but even so it really knocked me to the point the second time I had to do it the I almost didn't. Young girl 12/13 drowning getting her out of the water was the easy bit for me, being utterly convinced I was wasting my time with cpr for roughly 20 minutes whilst waiting for an ambulance was tough. I was well out of date on training my only logic was if she's dead already I'm not going to make her deader and the lifeguard was a headless chicken flapping like mad. Thank god I did have a go it wasn't a baywatch moment where she sat up and hugged me etc but after a few days in hospital she'd made a full recovery I'd done enough to keep oxygen and blood flowing apparently until the professionals could take over that there was no lasting damage. Anyone thinking of a course do it and if it's needed just have a go you're not going to make them any deader apparently the odds are not in your favour regardless but it maybe just enough to make a difference.
I said the same in an earlier thread. Think of the lives that could be saved if even 10% of the population was able to make an informed attempt at saving a life rather than standing around doing nothing & wondering what to do or just panicking.
I was disappointed when a forum member advised me of this:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a6742251.html
Tory MPs block bill to give first aid training to children - 20 November 2015
Conservative MPs have blocked a bill to bring first aid training to schools by talking non-stop until time to discuss and vote on it ran out.
The Compulsory Emergency First Aid Education (State-Funded Secondary Schools) Bill would have required schools to teach first aid training to children as part of the national curriculum.
The group of MPs used up the bill’s time by talking for hours, with one speech by an education minister described by the deputy speaker as like reading a “telephone book” out loud.
Last edited by trident-7; 10th July 2017 at 21:20.
Brilliant work!
Two examples illustrating two ends of the spectrum. The first case probably had next to no chance and the second was one of the most likely kind of cases to fully recover.
To be frank, it astounds me that more people don't know the basics. Especially if they have children.
A colleague of mine had to perform CPR on his mother. He was well trained and did everything he could/should but she still passed. Imagine being him standing there with no clue! That being said the Ambulance call centre will talk you through the basics. But having that training makes it so much easier to fall into the mecahanics of it and just do it.
First off, well done to all those who have administered first aid when needed.
I have done the courses with both St John's and the Red Cross, and because of my other interests also taken a weekend course in more specialised types of first aid - traumatic injuries. I've been lucky enough to only need to apply the knowledge once, when a friend's wife slipped over and broke her ankle whilst we were fishing. Although it required little more from me than making her comfortable and liaising with the paramedic crew as they tried to find us, the experience proved two things, first, some training is always better than none; second, training can never replace practical experience.
I'm booked on a course now, next week. I'm actually looking forward to it. I know I won't learn everything but with my absolute zero knowledge, I can't lose. Thanks for the help guiding me to finding a course.
Some incredible stories as well of which you should all be very proud.
The St John's Ambulance courses are absolutely excellent and I thoroughly recommend them. I have a refresher each year but found out when I started sailing that the RYA (Royal Yacht Association) courses have a little extra - there was a policeman on my most recent refresher because RYA First Aid includes both drowning and angina training as well as the full standard syllabus. I've never had to use the drowning training but it struck me as a very valuable extra and also a bit odd that it's not in the standard certificate. Just thought it was worth adding that to the thread.
V
Just completed my first aid refresher, its the one course I don't mind doing, it's amazing how quickly it comes back to you once you get into it.
I did my first, first aid course in 2008, got home on the Friday night and went out for dinner with the wife, some poor bloke starts choking on a bit of steak, all the people are just looking at him until the girl beside shouts for help.
The wife tells me to go up because I've just done the first aid course, I gave him abdominal thrusts and some hits on the back, it got dislodged but he still went to hospital, as he still didn't look right.
Its a scary situation, I was not confident when I went up but just did the best I could and got lucky.
Something is better than nothing.
On another note it would be good to bring in first aid into schools, teach them basics from a young age, I believe they do this in the Scandinavian countries and they can't get a driving licence without it.
Whilst it's always worth having some knowledge in these areas, I've done a number of sessions of First Aid training over the years (including St Johns and BSAC) and I'd never heard of agonal breathing or a need to apply CPR in such a case.
I suspect it's probably rare enough that the general view is that CPR isn't helpful in most responsive/pulse-present cases, so having a nurse present was probably the only way anyone would recognise it.
M.
This thread caught my attention as it's something I've considered doing for a while. This is just another example pointing toward the fact that our education system needs a complete upheaval. Ridiculous that children aren't taught basic, but important, real-world skills. Hoping this changes soon.
Will probably look into SJA now if the cost of the course is that cheap!
If it requires first aid training for traumatic injuiries I can't help thinking that you haven't quite got the hang of this fishing mullarkey.
Often yes but not always. I've had first aid training on and off since the age of 16, initially when I joined Irish Civil Defence after I left school and still vividly remember one particular exercise. One of the teams had to recover a cas-sim with a broken leg and did everyting to textbook until they discovered that the piece of timber that they had deployed as a splint was too long; sufficiently so that it actually prevented them getting the casualty out of the collapsed cellar where he'd been found. It was at the point when they began sawing the end off the splint whilst it was still strapped to the casualtyvictim's leg that the directing staff decided to intervene.
I occasionally worry that my first aid training is now out of date and wonder how much I'd remember in a tight spot.
As a Martial Arts instructor that works in schools it's a requirement that I am first aid trained we as a company have put everyone through level 3 paediatric first aid. This is an amazing course that can really make a difference learning the different methods of first aid depending of age etc.
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I disagree.
Agonal respirations are also commonly seen in cases of cardiac arrest where agonal respirations may persist for several minutes after cessation of heartbeat. The presence of agonal respirations in these cases indicates a more favorable prognosis than in cases of cardiac arrest without agonal respirations. In an unresponsive, pulseless patient in cardiac arrest, agonal gasps are not effective breaths. Agonal respiration occurs in 40% of cardiac arrests experienced outside a hospital environment.
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Great thread, which has made me think a lot.
My current knowledge of 'emergency medical procedures' is non-existent, so I would be standing back watching helplessly, which I would personally find unforgivable if I was ever faced with a situation where I could have helped someone.
I have also just booked a 3 day SJA course.
Thanks Wayne
Fully agree with this. The acid test is a central pulse check and if that is absent you should commence CPR independent of the presence of agonal breathing. The longer you leave someone without an output / pulse the more difficult it is to successfully resuscitate.
Current teaching on first aid at work courses is not to check the pulse at all. Put your ear/cheek next to their mouth/nose, whilst looking down at their chest, look for chest rises, listen/feel for breathing on your cheek, if none detected, start CPR. You're taught to treat agonal breathing as not breathing and to start CPR. You get shown the video of the Bondi beach rescue CPR as a demo of what agonal breathing looks like
Sounds new - I last did one two or three years ago and you still checked for a pulse (and I totally agree that no pulse is definitely cause for CPR! The original post didn't mention that, although it did say the heart was 'restarted', so I guess it was apparently not at the time)
All that said, I wouldn't consider myself to be capable in such a scenario and would certainly hope someone with more experience was around!
Agonal breathing is new to me - Which I suppose reinforces the value of regular refreshers!
M.
Last edited by snowman; 11th July 2017 at 17:40.
Guilty. I'd forgotten the pulse check was removed from BLS!
While you're looking, see these CPR training videos and also How to save a life.
Quick update, we just heard that the little girl is getting better and will make a full recovery. Day. Made.
Poifect, thank you!
Great news - well done to all those that assisted. Hopefully they will be able to find out what was wrong and help.
Great news that the girl made a recovery Wayne!
This is an interesting thread, and I encourage everyone to do some basic first aid training. I've been a first aider in work for many years, mainly dealing with minor glass cuts and the very occasional chemical burn.
But one afternoon when driving home I had to stop to give CPR to a chap who had collapsed. I won't go into all the details here, apart from some random things - people on the scene first were very relieved when I took control; the fast response paramedic asked me to continue (hands only) CPR as he carried out other tasks, it wasn't over when blue lights turned up; agonal breathing occurred and I had to dismiss 'helpful' onlookers who were telling me to stop CPR; after the event people may see you as 'authority' and ask random things, I got asked 'will he live?', 'are you a doctor?' (yes, but no), and 'can I move my car now Mr?'
I didn't find out what happened to the chap.
Where did you book in Wayne, the main offices are behind McVities off the A6 between Manchester and Stockport or have you found one more local.I'm booked on a course now, next week. I'm actually looking forward to it.
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