Reply With QuoteDon't let them bring the car back. It happened while the car was under their care, they didn't consult you beforehand about driving it about. It's their responsibility.
Morning - I thought I'd run this by the learned crowd for some thoughts or advice.
My daughter has an 11 year old Ford Fusion which she bought last year. Last week it started stalling when she was driving and losing power. She booked it in to a local garage (Sutton) and they said that they couldn't find anything with the diagnostics but thought it may be the valve in the fuel rail. They were due to order a new fuel rail which would have been available Monday (today). She was ok with this and then heard back from them saying that they had located a second hand one somewhere in Croydon and had driven her car over there "to check that it was the right part" and, on the way back the cambelt broke effectively trashing the whole engine.
My questions
- should a diagnostic check have identified a problem with the fuel rail? I thought that most problems these days would come back with some error code.
- is it normal practice for a garage to drive a customer car with a known fault to collect a second hand part to see if was the correct one? Surely there is a readily available part number that could be used.
- what is the position with liability on the part of the garage in cases like this?
I have told her to leave the car with them; they wanted to trailer it back to her house. I've also asked her to get details from them regarding the diagnostic tests and their reasons for driving the car around.
I'd be interested if anyone has had similar experiences or any ideas on where we stand on this.
Many thanks,
Nigel
Don't let them bring the car back. It happened while the car was under their care, they didn't consult you beforehand about driving it about. It's their responsibility.
Good luck everybody. Have a good one.
If the cam belt was about to break, is it fair to make them pay just because it happened to be them driving at the time?
I'm not convinced they should be picking up the bill for that to be honest.
If it had broken on the way to, or way from the garage, you'd be paying the bill.
It's bad luck, granted.
Re: the spare part, always better to see it in your hand and compare to the part you need - which is likely why they took your car to look at it.
Last edited by demonloop; 26th June 2017 at 12:06.
The strange bit is why they would drive your car over, surely they should have had the part posted. Might have meant next day arrival, but doesn't cost your fuel or their cost of someone's salary for however long the return trip is. Plus how much was the saving on the secondhand part? Did they call first to say we've found a secondhand one that is £X cheaper, would you like us to investigate that further (using your fuel, tyres etc) or would you rather just get it done today with a brand new part for £X extra.
I'm not a mechanic, would the fuel rail fault potentially stress the cambelt?
Was car insured to be on the road with a known fault that causes it to stall and lose power? That's surely a safety issue and insurance company might not have paid out if someone had gone up the back of the car if it suddenly lost power on the motorway for example.
I would muddy the waters with the above points, ask to speak to Branch Manager and say you'll take it to Group Head Office and ask for clarification from their insurers if they don't offer a solution asap.
Agree with this. If the part had been fitted and car taken on a subsequent test drive belt may well have broken then - not really their fault.Originally Posted by demonloop
Depends what equipment was used, that type of fault would need pressure reading, the software they were using may not have been able to read that.
Lol, no! No way any professional repair center would do that, no chance! If for some idiotic reason they needed to verify the part, they could have just used their own pool car & taken photo's.is it normal practice for a garage to drive a customer car with a known fault to collect a second hand part to see if was the correct one? Surely there is a readily available part number that could be used
They are 100% liable... end of! Now, it dpends on their attitude, if they appologise & acknowledge their error, than you might want to be generous & pay for the parts while they swallow the labour costs. If they play silly buggers, it's court case time.what is the position with liability on the part of the garage in cases like this?
The only caveat to the above, would be if they informed you of the need for a camblelt replacement at the time they carried out the initial diagnosis. Otherwise you have a slam dunk win.
Lol, that is NOT how the motor trade works i'm afraid. Once the vehicle enters your care you ( unless you inform the customer of said fault prior to test ) are 100% liable. As a trained profesional, you must be aware of potential faults on the vehicle, before testing, this must be relayed to the customer, failure to do so, then becomes your responsibilty as the trained expert.
Seems like a tall tale to me. If a second hand part was the way to go there would have been more cost effective ways to get this without resorting to someone's time, the fuel and the wear and tear on the vehicle. Look on ebay for fuel rail parts for a Ford Fusion - not expensive.
Makes me think someone had to be in Croydon for another reason and wanted a free set of wheels. This should not be your problem, but I wonder how you will get of it in practice.
The cynic in me would also want to check out why the journey was being made. Happens alot, that people who work in garages take customers cars for a spin.
Good luck everybody. Have a good one.
Remember Eddies dash cam footage of the Merc (?) garage road testing his car and getting done in a speed trap ?
Did they inform you prior to the cam belt breaking that they had found a 2nd hand donor part?
The disbeliever in me is thinking this is a cock and bull story
Thanks for all the responses so far. I'll wait to see what they come back with and post updates.
Good point, but it is a Ford Fusion! I know that there are a few 20mph limits around Sutton and Croydon, but still!!Remember Eddies dash cam footage of the Merc (?) garage road testing his car and getting done in a speed trap ?
Nigel
That's what it sounds like to me.
All sounds very fishy.
"A man of little significance"
I'm not sure how the garage could reasonably be expected to know the cam belt was about to snap.
Should they test the belts (and a few hundred other components) of every car that comes in for work, just in case?
Regardless of what the law says, I could not in good conscience expect the garage to pay in these circumstances. Your opinion may differ.
If they have an insurance policy against such events, (and it was a right and proper claim under the policy) I would be more comfortable with not paying for it myself.
That's something I'll check with my daughter and her other half. No idea why the garage was even looking for second hand parts when it had been agreed to wait until Monday for the new one. I find it difficult to believe that parts for Fusions fall into rocking horse poo territory.
Nigel
I call bullshit too. They may have used a cheap OBD reader which only gives off the high-level code - enough to know it's a fuelling problem, but no detail of exactly what.
Regardless, a simple part number match would have established whether it was the right part so no need to go anywhere. Mechanic having a free ride hoe methinks.
No relationship between fuel rail and cam belt.
Is it not just a pumped up Fiesta - I'm sure parts are 2 a penny secondhand-
OP : Point 1 - diagnostics do not detect everything only things with sensors etc,
the description of the fault would lead me to initially suggest a 'blocked cat' which can cause loss of power as exhaust gasses cannot pass however it normally means heat build up that would be detected by lambda sensor and put EML on but not always.
Point 2 - driving a customers car that you know to be unreliable / defective is plain daft for many reasons, and knowing the right part is easy as its chassis number driven, we would never drive it as described until we had fixed the problem and even then only on a short run.
putting all things into the mix I suspect the car may have already slipped a tooth on the drive belt which would change timing and cause car to drive 'underpowered' as valve timing would be out they have then driven it and the belt has let go - effectively this means valves meet pistons and make a horrid mess particularly at higher revs as forces greater.
if it has let go engine will be beyond economical repair due to age and value of car
best option is a 2nd hand engine from a reputable supplier rather than pull apart old one and replace all valves and any damaged pistons etc.
It would be unusual for any reputable garage not to offer a mutually acceptable resolution in the circumstances.
Indeed - VW used to either issue a warning or refuse to carry out tests on my gf's car as the cambelt had gone past its service interval. It was at a time that the cam-belt service interval went from 100,000 miles (no time limit) to every 3 years regardless of mileage. Obviously they had a few snap so changed it but she left it a year due to low mileage/use.
Unfortunate one this, surely it's the owners responsibility to have the car maintained and relevant items replaced at due intervals.whilst unfortunate that the belt let go whilst in garage hands it would be impossible for the garage to be aware this would happen(best take it to Hogwarts if you need prior notice). Road tests are an integral part of diagnosis and repair,they HAVE TO BE DONE. If the brake pads were worn and made contact with the discs on road test would this be the garage fault? I think not as this would just be the last stage of service neglect. If your teeth rot because you never clean them is it the Dentists fault and would He then repair them for free? I think not.
Well it is how the garage in question (and no doubt many others) appears to work.
I imagine they'll be a 'cars left at owner's risk' poster somewhere.
As far as I know, the only time a garage is 100% responsible for a customer's vehicle (with regard to sudden mechanical failure) is whilst it's undergoing its MoT test. As such, many garages refuse to test cars without a history of a belt change etc.
Not that I'm trying to back the garage but assuming it's a Z-Tec engine, your car should have had a timing belt done at 10 years or 100K miles. It looks like you bought it at around the ten year old mark so if you want to be angry at somebody, I'd suggest the garage that sold it to your daughter knowing it was due.
That said, it seems odd that they located and drove to pick up a second hand part without telling you first. I reckon it just snapped whilst they were testing it and they've panicked a bit. Not great form but still not really their fault it went.
Have you read the original post? This wasn't a test drive, if the garage are to be believed it happened when they took the customers car (without consent) to go and look at a second hand part (which wasn't suggested to the customer) and the belt broke en-route.
They were probably going to fit the second hand part and charge you for a new one anyway if they never mentioned it.
I'd be furious they were driving my faulty car around to pick up spare parts for their business.
It probably happens a lot it's just this time it went pear shaped for them.
I'd want them to make an offer, and don't let them dump it back to you.
Last edited by Nigel306; 26th June 2017 at 20:13.
My questions
- should a diagnostic check have identified a problem with the fuel rail? I thought that most problems these days would come back with some error code.
- is it normal practice for a garage to drive a customer car with a known fault to collect a second hand part to see if was the correct one? Surely there is a readily available part number that could be used.
- what is the position with liability on the part of the garage in cases like this?
A diagnostic check doesn't always necessarily show a fault code however fuel pressure issues normally do.
With that said the car is 11 yrs old and not everything left a fault code back then.
I'm guessing what may have happened is that in the absence of any fault code they may have used their past experience with this model or engine and took their best guess.
It's normal practice for a garage to drive a vehicle with a known fault but it needs to be assessed on its merits, if for instance you had taken the car in for an oil pressure warning light coming on then clearly a road test at that time would be the last thing they should be doing.
If it had a lack of power and the car didn't present any error codes then it's perfectly acceptable for the garage to test it.....to collect a part for the car of course is another matter entirely!
If it were us, the first thing we would have done would have been on the phone advising what we were doing....in all honesty you probably wouldn't have given it a second thought if it was explained correctly to why it was being done,
They've already priced the job and had it authorised so it's a little strange they went down the route of secondhand unless of course the part is on back order or now obsolete....strange things happen.
I wouldn't necessarily instantly think though that the fact they did this means there is any wrong doing.
The garage do have a duty of care to your vehicle and to certain extent are responsible for various issues.
If you had taken your car in for a wing mirror it's normal practice for garages to carry out a visual health check to make sure certain items are ok...they can't however be held responsible for something which is tucked behind a load of covers in the bowels of the engine.
I can't remember who said it now but whoever mentioned a slipped timing belt may possibly be on the money. It would probably run but very rough and under powered.
You don't mention if this lack of power was intermittent of whether it would run ok one minute and not the next. If it were the belt slipped then it wouldn't be intermittent so clarification is needed there.
I think the garage have been neglegnt of lack of communication but I don't think it changes anything currently....if they had have phone up she would have likely agreed to them driving it and she would likely be in the same position.
Either way it's a horrible situation to be in, I would be asking the garage how they got to the sensor as an issue although no fault code, why they went for secondhand, why they didn't make you aware what they were going to drive it and what's actually made the belt fail......this needs to be ascertained beforehand.
Good luck
FFF
Edit, it may be that they realised the error of their ways once the belt broke and tried back tracking with a parts story. Proving anything will be very difficult though.
Last edited by Franky Four Fingers; 26th June 2017 at 21:35.
Something similar happened to me, although it was part of the electronics that mysteriously failed while the car was in for a service. I avoided an £1800 repair bill by asking them to hold on to the car while I sent my own independent engineer down to assess the situation. Within an hour the manager phoned offering to 'repair' the car for free as I was 'a loyal customer' (I'd never used them before and won't again).
I suggest doing everything you can to establish the full facts, including what is actually wrong with the engine.
works both ways though this , but a good idea. Mate has a big bodyshop/ garage and they were doing something on a car that required a road test ( i think it was brakes changing ) and the lad went round the block and the engine seized . They brought it back and checked it over and it was logged at doing circa 30-35mph and not silly revs when it went . He contacted the owner saying what had happened and he would stand to the rebuild of the engine using parts necessary. The owner got rather lively wanting a new engine and x y and z and bad mouthing so the owner of the garage got an independant inspection done and it turns out the guy had not had it serviced for many many thousands of miles above the interval and the oil in it was the wrong spec. The owner knew and wound his neck in a bit when it was pointed out and behaved
Fair point. No-one should be out to screw the other party. But sometimes shining a light on what has really happened, makes sure the right thing happens in the end.
Thrashing the nuts off an engine with a weakened cam belt could certainly finish it off.
Exactly what a garage warned me about when doing the emissions checks for an MOT, when the cambelt was well overdue. Said coming off throttle quickly after revs could stress an older belt, and cause it to snap.
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