Rolex Sub Date 116610 97P5R819 ** NOW SUSPECTED TO BE FAKE **

[Haywood_Milton]

Reported stolen in a smash & grab at a Liverpool pawnbrokers (not connected to your correspondent) earlier today, 23rd June 2017 :

Rolex Submariner 116610 - 97P5R819

Update : please note, new evidence suggests this was a fake watch and that there may be others with the same number in circulation. If you come across one, it may thus be fake but not stolen.

I must now ask anyone needing more detail regarding each specific watch that I list here to contact me directly, as it has become clear that a commercial third party is harvesting information from this forum rather than going about its business in a transparent and professional way.

You know who you are. Consider this a slap across the legs with an Omega catalogue. Next time it'll be a Panerai box.

Haywood

[demonloop]

You know who you are. Consider this a slap across the legs with an Omega catalogue. Next time it'll be a Panerai box.

Haywood

A perfect gent, even when telling someone off :-)

[speedypro1111]

Sat here doing some paperwork this morning.
Sun shining on my lovely Rolex submariner 116710
I'm looking at the Rehaut and see the serial number ,so decided to google search "Rolex 97P5R819 and this thread comes up..

What to do ?

[speedypro1111]

Sorry it's definitely a sub 116610

[seadog1408]

Sorry it's definitely a sub 116610

Please explain?


mike

[speedypro1111]

116610 not 116710

[Montybaber]

I know this is probably not the place for this so apologies but thought I would try to distinguish this one as a novice, the first thing I noticed on this was the engraved rehaut not lining up with the minute markers, being honest I dont know if this alone would make me suspicious?

looking a bit more I noticed the gaps between the end links/case (could be exagerated by the way it is being held) then after staring at it a while some things seemed wrong with the dial, I can now see the 1000, f and the gap between 300 and m looks wrong (to me)

Every time I see these fakes I am amazed how good some are, I always assumed they would be so obviously fake but even though I own a Sub and look at it everyday I still really struggle

I assume there are many even better fakes out there?

[speedypro1111]

I know this is probably not the place for this so apologies but thought I would try to distinguish this one as a novice, the first thing I noticed on this was the engraved rehaut not lining up with the minute markers, being honest I dont know if this alone would make me suspicious?

looking a bit more I noticed the gaps between the end links/case (could be exagerated by the way it is being held) then after staring at it a while some things seemed wrong with the dial, I can now see the 1000, f and the gap between 300 and m looks wrong (to me)

Every time I see these fakes I am amazed how good some are, I always assumed they would be so obviously fake but even though I own a Sub and look at it everyday I still really struggle

I assume there are many even better fakes out there?

Rehaut does match up with minute markers
It's the angle I've taken photo
Not sure about the other stuff
I'm no expert

[ibby7]

After reading this thread I am non the wiser.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[Haywood_Milton]

After reading this thread I am non the wiser.

Put simply :

Pawnbroker in my area suffered a smash and grab yesterday.

One of the owners rang me and gave me the case number of a Rolex Submariner that had been stolen.

I reported the watch's number to the normal places, which includes posting the details here.

Speedypro1111 reported that the number matched his watch, which he knows to be fake.

Speedypro1111 was doubted by many, including me.

Speedypro1111 privately sent me photographic proof that I have every reason to believe acceptable.

The evidence now suggests that the case number is one used by fakers and that the watch stolen from the pawnbroker was, in fact, itself fake.

Here is the image which Speedypro1111 sent me --- in what was a series of very helpful, frank, courteous and open emails.



H

[speedypro1111]

Thankyou Haywood
I'm not sure I'm keen on the idea of being arrested for a stolen fake Rolex ;-)

if it saves anyone else getting caught out ive done the right thing ... I think ?

[Haywood_Milton]

Thankyou Haywood
I'm not sure I'm keen on the idea of being arrested for a stolen fake Rolex ;-)

if it saves anyone else getting caught out ive done the right thing ... I think ?

You know my thoughts: that you did the right thing, that I was wrong to doubt you at first but that you certainly have nothing to worry about for your own part.

[seikopath]

Couple of q's for you haywood. I'm pretty ignorant in these matters but always open to learning more.

In your opinion, is the pawnbroker the sort of outfit that would not be taken in by a fake ?

From what you've seen in the photos, how good a fake is it?

[Haywood_Milton]

Couple of q's for you haywood. I'm pretty ignorant in these matters but always open to learning more.

In your opinion, is the pawnbroker the sort of outfit that would not be taken in by a fake ?

From what you've seen in the photos, how good a fake is it?

They are decent people I have known all my professional life.

They would never knowingly touch such a watch, but very few pawnbrokers can specialise in Rolex watches to the extent that I believe is required.

H

[speedypro1111]

I've emailed you again Haywood proving everything I said
Regards

[seikopath]

They are decent people I have known all my professional life.

They would never knowingly touch such a watch, but very few pawnbrokers can specialise in Rolex watches to the extent that I believe is required.

H

Can you tell it's a fake from the photos, and if so, what are the tells?

[RAJEN]

What a confusing tale!
Thanks for clarification,HM
I think edits and updates confuse it more:-)

[-Ally-]

I wonder how the pawnbrokers insurance will handle this when (if?) they find out the stolen watch was actually a dud.

[speedypro1111]

Would the shop have any comeback on the person who sold them it ? Especially now it's not even in the shops possession
How could they prove the person sold them a fake ?
If you could keep us informed , I for one would like to know the outcome

What have I done ? Why did I reply this morning, I've spent the rest of the day wanting to buy a hulk "genuine "
Am now considering moving 2 watches on and buying one

[Haywood_Milton]

I wonder how the pawnbrokers insurance will handle this when (if?) they find out the stolen watch was actually a dud.

I know the owners. Please do not doubt for a moment that a watch subsequently thought to be fake would be claimed for.

Any FCA Approved Person, such as one has to be, would risk losing that status for the sake of a single demonstration that they are not a Fit and Proper person...which would effectively remove them from control of the business.

Basic honesty, however, preceded that.

H

[100thmonkey]

The letters not lining up with the minute markers was a giveaway before even looking any further

[speedypro1111]

The letters not lining up with the minute markers was a giveaway before even looking any further

Rehaut does match up with minute markers
Only the serial number does not
Bang centre of middle serial number is 30min marker ,I'd presume gens are same?

[100thmonkey]

Rehaut does match up with minute markers
Only the serial number does not
Bang centre of middle serial number is 30min marker ,I'd presume gens are same?

Doesn’t look so in the image

[fourstar]

Seems very difficult to tell if you are not a watch expert!

[KavKav]

A very educational and valuable thread. In common with most watch Bods, I have been aware how good fakes have been getting over recent years but in my mind this is now moving into scary territory where you really do need to be an expert to conclusively determine authenticity. It certainly makes the case for biting the price bullet and buying new from an AD.

[Haywood_Milton]

Buying new from an AD is an option, yes.

Buying secondhand from an AD is surprisingly risky -- for some reason they assume they are experts just through being main agents but this is of course nonsense. Some ADs do know what they are doing when it comes to authenticating watches, but many don't.

H

[ralphy]

I'm assuming you missed this, but it'd be most useful to hear your comments...

Haywood, for those of us who don't have your knowledge, could you please expand on what specifically you don't like, i.e. what to you in the bezel markings, rehaut markings, hands or dial indices indicates this is fake and whatever else is on the longer list?

FAKE :

R

[Haywood_Milton]

I'm assuming you missed this, but it'd be most useful to hear your comments...


R

I didn't miss it - with apologies, I chose not to answer. I'll happy comment on whether I think a specific watch is right or wrong, especially for fellow forum members, but open discussion about such specific further detail would not be my normal choice.

H