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Thread: Black Bay and Explorer for a Sub?

  1. #1
    Master
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    Black Bay and Explorer for a Sub?

    I'm finding I might be on an inevitable slide towards getting a Sub...

    I have an in house Black Bay that after 4 months I'm finding a little too big and bulky. I have an Explorer 114270 that after 1.5 months I'm finding a little small and not quite as 'wow' as expected. I didn't want to justify the cost of a Sub when I started out with watches but with what I have ended up with, I could trade both of the above for one without any extra cash.

    Is that a good deal or crazy? I think a ceramic Sub would be a little out of reach but a good 14060 or 14060m would be an easy straight swap.

    It would leave me with a Sub, Speedy FOIS and SKX beater trio.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berty234 View Post
    I'm finding I might be on an inevitable slide towards getting a Sub...

    I have an in house Black Bay that after 4 months I'm finding a little too big and bulky. I have an Explorer 114270 that after 1.5 months I'm finding a little small and not quite as 'wow' as expected. I didn't want to justify the cost of a Sub when I started out with watches but with what I have ended up with, I could trade both of the above for one without any extra cash.

    Is that a good deal or crazy? I think a ceramic Sub would be a little out of reach but a good 14060 or 14060m would be an easy straight swap.

    It would leave me with a Sub, Speedy FOIS and SKX beater trio.
    I've just been looking recently and it seems like the prices of the 14060 have shot up, some going for nearly the same price as the 114060. I myself prefer the 14060 but if you prefer the 114060 then you wouldn't have to spend much more to get one.

  3. #3
    Grand Master Wallasey Runner's Avatar
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    I bought a 14060m for £5.1k, the same dealer has the ceramic version for just under £5k. The older versions are becoming attractive to collectors and prices are rising. Get in quick.

  4. #4
    Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wallasey Runner View Post
    I bought a 14060m for £5.1k, the same dealer has the ceramic version for just under £5k. The older versions are becoming attractive to collectors and prices are rising. Get in quick.
    Interesting! Is this because of the short production run?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berty234 View Post
    Interesting! Is this because of the short production run?
    It's not really a short production run but they're certainly not making any more so people are jumping on them.

  6. #6
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    I've just consolidated my collection and picked up a SubC date from the SC, I love it, I had a BBB and it's a lovely thing but the minor details of the Sub won me over.
    Better crown, better bezel etc.
    That said I might be interested in the Explorer if you want to sell?

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunscrossed View Post
    That said I might be interested in the Explorer if you want to sell?
    I was just thinking the same!

  8. #8
    Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cinch View Post
    I was just thinking the same!
    Haha, never done a private sale before - was planning on using Watchfinder, Blowers or another local place I know. Happy to discuss in whatever way complies with forum rules.

  9. #9
    Master
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    sent you a pm.

  10. #10
    Master
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    Hi chaps, so just following this up. I have a deal offered to me for a 14060m 4 liner, 2009, for my two watches at nil value. The Sub is box only but has had an overhaul service (not by Rolex but credible servicer) and a replacement bezel and comes with 2 year warranty.

    I think this is probably about a couple of hundred quid off a truly fair deal, but I'm not sure it's worth quibbling.

    Would anyone else do this trade?

  11. #11
    Master
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    It has the advantage of no-hassle, though a newish watch without papers might harm resale value/prospects. I suspect that if you bide your time on this site you can do better.

  12. #12
    The 4 liner is one of my favourite watches. I'd be tempted to do the deal. Depends on how much you could get a full set for, but you only wear the watch. These will rise in price more than the Explorer imo, with the much shorter run on the COSC version, and most people wanted the Sub date instead, as it wasn't much more money in those days ;)
    It's just a matter of time...

  13. #13
    Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omegamanic View Post
    The 4 liner is one of my favourite watches. I'd be tempted to do the deal. Depends on how much you could get a full set for, but you only wear the watch. These will rise in price more than the Explorer imo, with the much shorter run on the COSC version, and most people wanted the Sub date instead, as it wasn't much more money in those days ;)
    I have a bit of cash back offered now too, and I mean a bit, but still something. Tempted... full set comparison looks to be a few hundred extra. Might just get it Rolex serviced next time round and get the service card in the pack.

  14. #14
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    Is it going to be a keeper? If so I'd just go for it, wear it and love it.

  15. #15
    Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cinch View Post
    Is it going to be a keeper? If so I'd just go for it, wear it and love it.
    If I can't get happy with a Sub and Speedy combo plus beater then I'm doomed, so hope so!!!

  16. #16
    Master
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    It's a lot to give up so I'd only do it for a ceramic sub, but sub sounds like what you want.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berty234 View Post
    If I can't get happy with a Sub and Speedy combo plus beater then I'm doomed, so hope so!!!
    I've had a ceramic sub, 14060 and a 5513.
    As much as I loved the 5513 it's the 14060 that I'd have again. Go for it!

  18. #18
    Journeyman
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    Based on my limited knowledge it sounds a good deal. In the unlikely event you are not happy with the sub you could move it on with little or no loss (guessing here).

    Moonwatch, sub and beater would tick all the boxes for me.

  19. #19
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    Do it!

    Just go for it!!

    Ive had all the watches you have spoken about and for me the Sub just trumps them each time and once you have it in your head it just won't go away so do it!!
    Since getting my latest Sub addition again it's been my daily and all others have stayed in the safes!! I still love the others but the Sub just does it for me and is great for all my meetings, conferences or just going out at the weekend!!!!

    Get it and post some pics!!

    Chris

  20. #20
    Grand Master
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    Letting a 114270 Explorer go is never a good move. The epitome of understated class, I' d never trade an Explorer for any dive watch.

    Even though I have a couple of divers in the collection I do think their appeal is limited.

    Paul

  21. #21
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    i'd estimate the Black Bay to be worth around £2k, not sure about the Explorer but i'd guess £3500 - £4k. So is a 4 liner 14060 worth £5500 - £6k ???
    I think that sounds expensive, especially seeing as it doesn't have the original papers.
    you would be better selling your 2 and then finding the sub, cash is king !

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berty234 View Post
    I'm finding I might be on an inevitable slide towards getting a Sub...
    I'm so feeling this too. And the Sub illness is such that I willingly try on all its iterations and want them all...

    Heck I went into the New Bond St Rolex boutique on Monday and had to drag myself away from bankruptcy or unarmed robbery over this one.





    It's madness. I currently can't escape a feeling that I have to get a no date ceramic at the very least, and I need it yesterday. Ridiculous.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by boundary546 View Post
    i'd estimate the Black Bay to be worth around £2k, not sure about the Explorer but i'd guess £3500 - £4k. So is a 4 liner 14060 worth £5500 - £6k ???
    I think that sounds expensive, especially seeing as it doesn't have the original papers.
    you would be better selling your 2 and then finding the sub, cash is king !
    I think your prices are a little high, but not crazily.
    It's just a matter of time...

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berty234 View Post
    Hi chaps, so just following this up. I have a deal offered to me for a 14060m 4 liner, 2009, for my two watches at nil value. The Sub is box only but has had an overhaul service (not by Rolex but credible servicer) and a replacement bezel and comes with 2 year warranty.

    I think this is probably about a couple of hundred quid off a truly fair deal, but I'm not sure it's worth quibbling.

    Would anyone else do this trade?
    I agree that some cash should be coming your way in this deal. Obviously, there are a lot of variables to consider in terms of condition and accompanying B&Ps on both sides but I would have though that £200-300 your way would not be unreasonable. Sometimes Chrono24 is you friend for guidance purposes.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omegamanic View Post
    I think your prices are a little high, but not crazily.
    I've had probably half a dozen Black Bays, both old eta and new in house, never took less than £2k for one, maybe they've come down a bit, but only £200 at most. I'd say £3500 is cheap for an Explorer ??? I would have thought if the OP sold both these he would have enough for a ceramic 114060 with its boxes and warranty card

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by boundary546 View Post
    I've had probably half a dozen Black Bays, both old eta and new in house, never took less than £2k for one, maybe they've come down a bit, but only £200 at most. I'd say £3500 is cheap for an Explorer ??? I would have thought if the OP sold both these he would have enough for a ceramic 114060 with its boxes and warranty card
    Ive had a few, and still have a couple of Black Bays, never paid more than £1700 for one, and never sold one for more than £1500. In-house might be a little more expensive, but one sold much cheaper on SC this week (yes it sold quickly). The Explorer is the older 36mm model.

    I'd pay more for a 14060M COSC than a ceramic, and so would most of the usual used watch dealers looking at their asking prices for them at present.
    It's just a matter of time...

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omegamanic View Post
    I'd pay more for a 14060M COSC than a ceramic, and so would most of the usual used watch dealers looking at their asking prices for them at present.
    It seems to be 5k+ now, prices have really shot up.

  28. #28
    Master
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    I've got to £150 back my way for the 4 liner 14060m.

    I would say retail used value on the Black Bay is £2250 and Explorer £3600 (the 36mm 114270). But that is retail value. I've got £5k in effect offered on them as trade in, which isn't terrible.

    Tempted. But also tempted to go and lay £500 ish and go ceramic and new.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berty234 View Post
    I've got to £150 back my way for the 4 liner 14060m.

    I would say retail used value on the Black Bay is £2250 and Explorer £3600 (the 36mm 114270). But that is retail value. I've got £5k in effect offered on them as trade in, which isn't terrible.

    Tempted. But also tempted to go and lay £500 ish and go ceramic and new.
    Have you tried the ceramic?
    I had the LV (Hulk) and the bigger case does change the look and feel of the watch in comparison to the older subs. It isn't just a new bezel.

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Berty234 View Post
    I've got to £150 back my way for the 4 liner 14060m.

    I would say retail used value on the Black Bay is £2250 and Explorer £3600 (the 36mm 114270). But that is retail value. I've got £5k in effect offered on them as trade in, which isn't terrible.

    Tempted. But also tempted to go and lay £500 ish and go ceramic and new.
    If I wasnt such a fan of the sapphire/aluminium bezel insert watches, then Id buy the ceramic. The 14060M cosc is a modern classic, and I'm sure would be a better long term bet for value - but for some the Ceramic is the better watch, and it does have a fantastic bracelet and clasp - new with 5 year warranty too!
    It's just a matter of time...

  31. #31
    Master
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    If you take the potential investment out of the equation the new ceramics are much better watches in my opinion, nice position to be in.

  32. #32
    Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunscrossed View Post
    If you take the potential investment out of the equation the new ceramics are much better watches in my opinion, nice position to be in.
    Such a tough one. I do have one eye on investment here, so maybe the 14060m 4 liner with £150 back?

  33. #33
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    If you are looking for a daily driver, I would stretch and go for 114060. As much as the 14060M is lovely, the new one with the upgraded bracelet is insane. Plus if you buy new or nearly new, you will get 5 year warranty and a movement at - 2/+2 sec a day. And yes, I have a SubC ND and I think it is perfect, clean looking dial, no hassle changing the date, and extremely versatile.

  34. #34
    Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berty234 View Post
    Such a tough one. I do have one eye on investment here, so maybe the 14060m 4 liner with £150 back?
    I'd say also that my wrist is 6.75 although quite flat. The in house Black Bay is very chunky on it. I worry the ceramic could be a tad big too. Trouble is access to both in different locations for trying on.

  35. #35
    Grand Master Dave+63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunscrossed View Post
    If you take the potential investment out of the equation the new ceramics are much better watches in my opinion, nice position to be in.
    Personally, I'd buy a 14060 before a 114060 any day of the week.

    I'm aware that the later bracelet is better and the movement is a newer design but non of that really matters; the 14060 should easily last a lifetime.

    It's also, IMHO, a far nicer design.

  36. #36
    The good news is, I don't think you would go wrong with either.
    It's just a matter of time...

  37. #37
    The thing is that nobody knows what will happen later on, say Rolex release a new larger SubC in a few years or even revert back to a slimmer lug design, there is then a possibility the 40mm Maxi Subs will be a be a decent investment or then again they may not, my point is buy the watch you prefer not compromise waiting for a profit down the road

    I would also advise to absorb information on here but go with your own feeling in the end, everyones advice on here (whether they admit it or not) will justify how they decided to spend their money or be biased in some way, it you who has to look at it everyday

    Not sure why it just cant be excepted that designs change and we all have our preferences, there is not a bad Submariner and none are too big or uncomfortable to wear, some have better bracelets but the 5 digit bracelets are fine, aluminium/ceramic is personal choice no worries either way

  38. #38
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    i did this with my first GMT back in 2004 , every one was wearing subs but i liked the GMT and bought that . In hindsight it was a good move as its worth a lot more than i bought it for but wont part with it for scentimental reasons. Go with what you want rather than the masses and enjoy it . im drawn to certain Seiko stuff at the moment but ill sit on that urge for a while

  39. #39
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    I agree with some of the comments that you could potentially have a better deal than being offered.

    While the 14060 / 14060M seems to be very much favored these days and the prices have been on the rise, definitely take into consideration that this one comes without the original warranty certificate / card.

    Also, is your Black Bay on a leather or bracelet? It makes quite a difference in considering the value of the pair being offered.

  40. #40
    Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by ywl23n View Post
    I agree with some of the comments that you could potentially have a better deal than being offered.

    While the 14060 / 14060M seems to be very much favored these days and the prices have been on the rise, definitely take into consideration that this one comes without the original warranty certificate / card.

    Also, is your Black Bay on a leather or bracelet? It makes quite a difference in considering the value of the pair being offered.
    Bracelet - although the Black Bay has some scratches and scuffs to sides, lugs and bracelet.

  41. #41
    Master
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    If I may ask a follow up, would a mid nineties 16610 with box, papers and recent Rolex service be a good trade for nil value for my two?

  42. #42
    Personally, I'd sell them and then buy what takes your fancy. All the models are available, and then you would have the choice of the best price, completeness and condition.
    It's just a matter of time...

  43. #43
    Grand Master Dave+63's Avatar
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    Black Bay and Explorer for a Sub?

    Quote Originally Posted by Berty234 View Post
    If I may ask a follow up, would a mid nineties 16610 with box, papers and recent Rolex service be a good trade for nil value for my two?
    No, the 16610 is currently out of favour. A quick look on Chrono24 shows U.K. watches for under £4500.

    Your pair are probably worth £5k-£5.5k so you should expect £5-800 back with the sub in my opinion. I think a 16610 is a good option though as I'm sure it will find favour again sooner or later and values will catch up.
    Last edited by Dave+63; 22nd June 2017 at 12:23.

  44. #44
    Master
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    I ended up trading the Explorer 114270 for a new 214270 (2016 update with lumed arabics and longer minute hand). Tried on the Subs, did not like them at all. Just not for me. The new Explorer though is a much better fit for my wrist against the 36mm version.

    Don't think I can bring myself to sell the Black Bay now. I'll let it sit in the box for a bit. :)

  45. #45
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    Great choice Berty234! The new explorer is gorgeous!

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