Reply With QuoteGenesis Croix de Fer sounds right up your street.
If you go carbon, Canyon offer amongst the best value bikes around. Highly recommended.
Hahahaha, FINALLY I can open a 'what...' thread :-)
Seriously: Looking to buy a bike to have next to my year 1900 replica. That is a hoot to ride and I love it but with 14.4 kilos and no gears it is a bit of a challenge here in the mountains.
A tarmac racer and hard must is that it needs be RUGGED. A normal frame strength will do but like Roubaix resistant wheel set is indispensable for the odd piece of unmetalled connecting stretch with rocks.
Seems a bit of a bummer to pay extraextra for lightweight and then put 36 spoke rims in but it is the way it is. No way around it.
I will also, without a doubt drop is occasionally. Thus carbon seems a bit wannabee but that may be bike luddite prejuce.
Well, 'luddite'... I do simply LOVER the new electronic shifter like ths Shimano Di. Soooo cool. Sadly sooo expensive too. Not sure it is worth THAT much in use.
The market is baffling me. Man, there are so SO many bikes on offer. India is a growing contender to my surprise.
Genesis Croix de Fer sounds right up your street.
If you go carbon, Canyon offer amongst the best value bikes around. Highly recommended.
What he said, Genesis Croix de Fer, great steel frameset easily fit guards luggage etc. Built as a semi gravel bike. I have the titanium 105 groupset, been riding it since Jan , done appx 800 miles, other than tweaking the headset its been faultless.Originally Posted by guinea
I ride it quickly on canal tow paths and rough forest trails, the 36 mm Clement "USH" tyres soak it up. Wheelset is Alex Draw 32 spoke.
Nice one that!
Thanks for the suggestion.
+1 for Canyon
Hesitate to stray from metal. Very much tempted by the Shimano Ultegra Di2. Seems to offer a lot of practical advantage and simplicity of maintenance. Cleaner looking too.
I saw on the Genisis site that they offer fatter rubber on road bikes. I totally get that although it takes a bit of getting the mind around it.
I am also in Southern Spain and you need a Pashley. A steel frame is your best bet.
http://www.pashley.co.uk
This company used to supply bicycles to the Royal Mail because of their durability.
Di2 is fantastic. I have it on my road bike and wouldn't switch back to a traditional group set on that. However, the replacement costs for parts are very high, so if you think you will drop the bike or crash, I'd steer clear. My mountain bike has bog standard SLX for this reason. Parts will break, and I want them to be cheap to replace.
I would agree on the earlier suggestion of the croix de fer. Or any Cyclocross bike really. Will work well on Forest tracks or gravel, and still ride well on the road.
Another vote for a Genesis...I've got an earlier Equibrilium disc...Reynolds 631 steel frame, 105 groupset, bombproof H plus & son rims with MTB XT hubs (yes it accepts MTB hubs) ...it maybe heavier than the usual road racing fraternity weight weenies but oh so comfy for long audax like rides, fantastically stable on descents and more than happy on bridleways & canals etc...brilliant do it all...and far faster and fun than a MTB when it comes to putting the miles in...Mine's 3 years old, thousands of miles and havn't had a spot of bother
My present bike is indestructable steel and I want lighter. MUCH lighter.
Disc brakes, no. I get the technical advantage for braking force and no discussion there, but I don't like the extra load on the spokes.
I am not that likely to do a lot of off tarmac and fingers crosses spills will be minor so think breaking the derailleur or such a minor risk. It is just that there is no avoiding very rough connecting bits. Also some stretches of 'tarmac' have patches on patches on patches and one WILL get into ruts and potholes so the wheels better be strong. Nothing will be shaken to bits, that is not it, but it does need to withstand bad bumps.
I am not opposed to carbon; it is probably tougher than aluminium and could probably stretch the budget, but am simply hesitant.
Btw., titanium is a no go for me in a frame. ChroMo yes, ti. no as it is less stiff and tire fails earlier.
I've just switched from a carbon road bike to a Genesis Croix de Fer and very impressed so far. I'm 110kg so the 3-4kg saving from carbon to steel ain't a biggy for me. My riding is now more family oriented with my son at weekends so need ability to do trails, blue MTB runs, gravel as well as road, so seemed an ideal solution. Wheels are also triple-crosssd spokes, so able to cope with heavy duty and impacts. It has an 11-34 cassette so excellent gearing for hills. It also looks pretty damn good for a steely...
How do disc brakes put the spokes under extra load??? Over rim brakes?
...how about a Specialized Roubaix? It's designed to be more comfortable on the rough stuff
The discs are attached to the hub, not the spokes - discs won't stress the spokes at all.
An electric one.
R
Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.
Yes it will. Contact is with the tyre, so with the rim. Disc force is applied to hub. Spokes are transferring the force and therefore are put under the stress, unlike a classic rim break where spokes are less stressed (the mass of the bike + rider times deceleration applies to the hub thus the spokes, still.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Its not too late to vote Buckethead
The angle you've got those bars looks a bit odd.I've just switched from a carbon road bike to a Genesis Croix de Fer and very impressed so far. I'm 110kg so the 3-4kg saving from carbon to steel ain't a biggy for me. My riding is now more family oriented with my son at weekends so need ability to do trails, blue MTB runs, gravel as well as road, so seemed an ideal solution. Wheels are also triple-crosssd spokes, so able to cope with heavy duty and impacts. It has an 11-34 cassette so excellent gearing for hills. It also looks pretty damn good for a steely...
I see where you're coming from but your arse is still on the bike. The momentum of stopping is still transferring through the spokes to the hub that's fixed to the frame thats carrying the same weight.
I may be wrong and not for the first time but I still don't see how a disc brake has any negative effect on a set of spokes over any other brake.
If anything by your logic a disc brake should be better for a spoke as its at the butted end and not on a joint between a thread and an alloy nipple.
Anyway, I feel like I'm making something out of nothing so please forgive me. I was just curious as to your thoughts on the load via a disc.
From an ex downhiller and now roady and very part time trail monkey :-)
You may be right, I'd need to think a little more about it but I may have enjoyed my wine a touch too much for doing that tonight.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Croix de fer is an excellent bomb proof bike.
Other options include Planet X london road, boardman cx team and Planet X kaffenback are all good alternatives.
Nice looking bike, there is something about the shape of steel tubing, its simplicity when you get used to "hydroformed" aluminium or taper wrap carbon. Enjoy.I've just switched from a carbon road bike to a Genesis Croix de Fer and very impressed so far. I'm 110kg so the 3-4kg saving from carbon to steel ain't a biggy for me. My riding is now more family oriented with my son at weekends so need ability to do trails, blue MTB runs, gravel as well as road, so seemed an ideal solution. Wheels are also triple-crosssd spokes, so able to cope with heavy duty and impacts. It has an 11-34 cassette so excellent gearing for hills. It also looks pretty damn good for a steely...
I know you dont want a Ti but heres my version just to show tyres and groupset.
Last edited by higham5; 9th June 2017 at 07:31.
I would agree with above since you think about Newtons third law equal opposite etc. It doesnt matter which one the braking force is applied to hub or rim, you still have a torque effect equal to the distance of the spokes.
I think the early fears of disk brakes snapping spokes came from the very early prototypes on tandems. One things for sure you can exert more force with a disk, so the early tandems ripped out their spokes.
When I bought my croix de fer the tech said the Shimano road disk calipers are modified to give better modulation than on an MTB. Since a front or rear wheel lock up, which is common on an MTB is not as desirable on the road!
I have 105 rim caliper brakes on my carbon road bike, and I have to say I find them feeling a bit wooden after the disks.
It's true that disc brakes will put more strain on spokes than rim brakes, but there is a wide enough safety margin that it isn't an issue (speaking as a 16.5 st mountain biker who probably puts more strain on wheels than most).
The forces from a rim brake are pushing forward, therefore the spokes are in compression which is their strongest plane, a disk brake tries to twist the hub in the rim so the spokes are in torsion, not as strong but plenty strong enough.
Lots of braking downhill, especially in the rain can wear a friction surface relatively quickly and I'd rather replace a disk than a rim - deffo a factor for consideration.
Anyway, the only correct answer to the original question is Pashley Guv'nor
Oh, and it has drum brakes so downhill is quite exciting
Last edited by dickbrowne; 9th June 2017 at 08:32.
I was going to suggest a Ti Croix de Fer but if budget is not an issue then a Parlee or a Seven Evergreen fitted with Ultegra Di or SRAM wireless. Trek Domane is nice and gives you the options for mudguards. Re discs, isnt it the case that the wheels are stressed but less so, it's actually the fork that gets most of the braking forces? I seem to remember Colnago having to redesign their forks to accomodate the braking forces generated by a disc. Of course the advantage of discs is you can run a carbon wheelset without the disadvantages of rim braking.
The stresses on forks are identical for a given braking force regardless of how the force is generated, but the forks do take a more hefty battering with disks due to their greater braking ability (esp vs dual pivot road brakes - a good v-brake setup will stop you almost as quickly as a mid-range disk). There's also an issue with the mounting points of a calliper being a potential stress rider, but the truth of the matter is that we, as non-pro riders, will never get anywhere near the limit of either setup, its personal preference.
If you think about it, just about any brake on a bike will lock a wheel, so power isn't an issue, control, feel, maintenance, cost and (if you're obsessive) weight are far bigger issues. Where the weight is located is also a potential issue - reciprocating -v- fixed - which side of the bouncy bits etc all have an effect on acceleration and handling; less so on a pushbike than a motorbike, but all factors.
As an old gimmer, I prefer a drum brake - I regularly over-reach the abilities of that particular system!
The most important thing is that you're happy with your choice - it's largely fashion-lead IMHO (including my own choice)
Koga Miyata. Being Dutch you know you want one!
Other Dutch brands suited for this and your list of specs:
- Snel (Utrecht)
- Rih (Amsterdam)
- Bio Racer (LImburg)
- Santos (Nieuw Vennep)
Menno
If you're after something reasonably light, mostly on road but capable of venturing slightly off the tarmac when needed then there are loads of options out there... every major bike company has an alternative. I'd go carbon, disc brakes, 'endurance'/'sportive' and the obvious choices are the Roubaix, Domane, maybe the Cervelo C series...
However, if you're a little more adventurous and have a few quid to spend then I'd have a look at the 3T Exploro or the Open U.P. As close to 'one bike does everything' as you'll get.
A spoke provides _less_ strength to the wheel when compressing. I also think you mean tension, rather than torsion.
Disc brakes are a wonder. I got a new commuter bike just after Christmas with discs and I'm strongly considering ditching my Canyon SLX for something with discs. Worrying about the spokes having more stress is nonsense.
I'd get a Canyon Endurace in carbon, if I were OP. Carbon bikes are stronger than metal ones.
I'd get one with a motor and an extra couple of wheels, oh what's the name now?..................................... Oh yeah, a car
Really? Lighter (maybe) yes, but stronger? It would depend what test(s) you are subjecting the bike to
Still have a Koga Miyata.
Bought a ridge runner when ATB was something new :-)
The frame is a bit too battered now so I retired the thing.
Looking at a Jan Janssen too. I think it so cool that the most successful Dutch cyclist ever set this up and that his sons are running the place with him still involved.
@DoctorJ: The spokes ARE extra stressed by a disc brake. Just use your brain. It is too simply to warrant explanation.
You can also SEE that the spokes are spoked differently to cope with the extra force direction; like the rear wheel.
Whether one needs to worry about it is another thing. I am not stating that one should, just that I prefer the rim to be braked.
Try my current ride:
I have had quite a few scares and near misses with a locked rear wheel, just going down to the village.
As much fun as it is, now riding more and longer distances it is time for a more modern and safer set up :-)
I will opt for 32 - 36 spoke aluminium anyway. The carbon rims are stiffer and that is what I can do without.
As was aptly observed; even drum brakes usually are powerful enough to overcome the friction with the road so that is not THE crux with discs. With the low grip, super hard for summer heat tarmac over here the disc is way overpowered.
The huge advantage of a disc set up is that the hydraulic actuation is linear. There is no cable stretch nor give in the brakes themselves. As such it has simply superior feel. No discussion there.
I simply do not want them on a bicycle. I do not like crossed spoked front wheels, I do not like the look of the disc set up, I can do without brake power overkill. Personal preference.
Much appreciated food for thought
Obviously it depends. Mostly on the architecture, not on the material. Carbon is way stronger than aluminium. It is one of the veryVERY few materials outside of the comparative the density/strength range.
Whether a frame made from carbon is stronger than out of other material is depending on the shape. Bike frames can be made wayWAY stronger in carbon than in any alternative.
The thing is that strong (or stiff) is not necessarily the begin and end all of properties. BSA learned that the hard way with their titanium framed motorcross bikes.
Take cromoly. Great stuff and a well constructed frame from special tubing can be both strong enough and feather light. The problem then is that the wall thickness in the less stressed areas gets so thin that the slightest hit will dent it.
With aluminium the extra wall thickness gives geometric stiffness, resistance to dents. Same thing the larger diameter adding geometric stiffness.
Carbon is different in all aspects. Not least because the fibres spread, distribute forces evenly. For anyone having doubt about carbon, look at high end fishing rods.
For me carbon may very well be too stiff and I do not need the 1 or 2 kilo weight reduction. My current bike weighs 14.5 kilos!!! and that is not mygripe even. Still like carbon an awful lot as it is such awesome stuff.
Oh, and ever so much appreciated all the feed back here!!
That's twice what my road bike weighs. This thing flies up hills & is super-fast on the flat. Corners like it's on rails.
Steel isn't necessarily heavy:
The simplistic obsession with weight specifications has led to an industry that disproportionately depends on selling trendy and essentially-disposable bikes, instead of ones that are actually pleasant to ride for more than an hour and are built to last. Fortunately, there are alternatives available if you know where to look.
Besides, I much prefer the looks and durability of a quality frame made out of metal.
A few more gratuitous Pegoretti photos, 'cause they're absolutely gorgeous:
For me, there's absolutely no question that it's the bike to have. :)
Nice but for me Passoni have the edge. But this is the artisan end of things.
http://www.passoni.it/collection.php
Well that sounds like a gratuitous excuse to post a few pics of my Peg...
Last edited by Meesterbond; 3rd August 2017 at 21:39. Reason: Photobucket locked my account
That is nice.A few more gratuitous Pegoretti photos, 'cause they're absolutely gorgeous:
I'm not hung up on one frame material is better than the other, it's all down to your own preference & what works best for you. But I would say that genesis croix de fer is very heavy in comparison to many other options (incl other steel options). My mate had one and couldn't live with it for that very reason.
Thanks for posting; that's lovely!
Genesis claims 11.6 kg for the midrange 105-equipped version, which seems pretty reasonable to me for a touring bike that can accommodate loaded front and rear racks, and has a strong steel fork, discs and 35 mm tyres.
It's an extra-strength bike that's built for carrying loads heavy enough to negate the frame weight, so I could see how someone would find the additional heft from the thicker tubing and burly dropouts a bit unnecessary for unloaded riding.
Canyon has a few nice aluminium options with decent tyre and mudguard clearance for similar money that weigh in around around 9 kg. They're fantastic for riding around on mixed road surfaces and crappy weather, but it has less-durable wheels with skinnier tyres and the frameset has nowhere near the robustness or load-carrying capability of the Genesis, so it's not comparing like for like. But they're both good at doing what they're designed for.
As there was some discussion of disc brakes, I think they're fantastic for rainy UK and Scandinavian riding, but there isn't much point for drier climates. Rim brakes make for an inherently-stronger wheel because of the wider hub flange spacing and take advantage of a large braking surface that's already an integral part of the wheel, so they're not ever going obsolete.
Last edited by Belligero; 9th June 2017 at 22:29.
Cool.
Speaking of artisan-grade bikes, have you ever checked out cycleexif.com? It's full of beautiful custom builds of all types.
Personally, I'd love to have something like this (minus the carbon wheels and electronic shifting) for fast all-weather riding:
link: http://www.cycleexif.com/bicycle-crumbs-x-franco-grimes
Ditch the plastic saddle and grip tape for leather, and it's a proper functional work of art.
My 2007 Pegoretti Duende developed a crack on the chainstay, Dario has repaired it and I'm having a new fork and paint job, it's being shipped back to me this week. Can't wait to rebuild it and get riding, it's the best handling/ride feel bike I have ever swung a leg over.
Besides, I much prefer the looks and durability of a quality frame made out of metal.
I've wanted a frame from a top custom builder like Pegoretti ever since I got into bikes. I'll really have to stop stalling and finally get one of those made. Please post photos of yours when it arrives!
Those artesanal bikes rock my boat, push my buttons. THANKS for sharing.
My dad was an old style carpenter and I inherited his love for 'honest' materials like wood and steel.
I am blown away by lightened lugs and perfect brazing.
It is why I bought the Koga and my retro replica per example.
The bike to be bought now however is going to be a compromise with that.
The electronic Di enhances a clean design imo. A 'classic' looking bike not searching for the last ounces but using modern materials for functionality, rim brakes on heavy duty wheels and Di shifter... Hmmm.
I will happily pay a bit extra for a custom retro paint job in antique red or so.
About the leather mentioned. Well.... I get that and yes that is so desirable but, the butt has a say in it too. There is no doubt that the Brooks I have now is like my seat bones gripping a wooden rod. Modern saddles beat that hands down. As longer rides are the goal, I will go for a modern one in honey color ;-)
atm I'm trying not to justify a N+1 gravel / adventure bike like the Sonder Camino which comes in Alloy or TI....
https://www.alpkit.com/sonder/sonder-camino-ti
https://www.alpkit.com/sonder/sonder-camino-alloy
In case you were thinking of something more 'do-it-all'... I had this built a year or two back as a CX / winter / touring bike. Steel again, hydro discs, mudguard and rack eyes (for forks had to go to Parlee to get the bosses bonded on, then back to Indy Fab for painting)... Turned out alright I think...
Last edited by Meesterbond; 3rd August 2017 at 21:41. Reason: Photobucket account locked
Carbon vs aluminium -
With wheels it is diferent though. At least with rim brakes as was correctly mentioned earlier. With carbon, discs are the only proper choice. A workaround realy but as the disc is a superior brake, it is a win-win; carbon rims and disc are best. Ceterus paribus that is.
As always there is another factor, spokes. The more spokes the stronger the wheel. Ditto spoke pattern. The straighter the stiffer.
However; MTB, especially Downhill is showing that carbon/disc is the way forward/downward. Carbon wheels/discs is where we will see advances now. All WAY beyond my needs/capacity though :-)
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