Reply With QuoteeBay for a cheap introduction, while I know nothing about them I like to get a bunch of watches out and play, certainly showed up errors in watches I've subsequently had serviced and are now flawless.
I've an odd selection of watches, and I'd like to know how accurate they are. I've been using watch tracker but now would like to move to a timegrapher, any recommendations?
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eBay for a cheap introduction, while I know nothing about them I like to get a bunch of watches out and play, certainly showed up errors in watches I've subsequently had serviced and are now flawless.
The basic Timegrapher 1000 is more than enough for the majority of us. It tells you all you need to know.
Available new on eBay for £120 or around £100 when they come up in SC.
I got a timegrapher 1000 about 6 months ago via Amazon, great bit of kit especially if you want a health check on your watches - more so if you do some tinkering :)
I paid around £350 in 2012 for a MTG-3000 Timegrapher which is a copy of a far more expensive Swiss machine. It's had a lot of use and it's still going strong. This one allows the beat number and lift angle to be manually set and it also seems happy to 'read' co-axial movements correctly, giving the correct amplitude readings provided the lift angle's set correctly. It would be useful (for me) to have a plot facility over a period of hours but I can live without that.
Knowing how to interpret the data helps too. If you know what you're doing you can check the auto-winding quite easily and detect several faults on a watch, but for most people the amplitude, rate and positional variation will be sufficient.
If you're a watch enthusiast there's far more sense in buying one of these than some over-priced manufacturer's own brand strap or deployant clasp.
Paul
Thanks for the input, everyone. I doubt I'll be taking things to pieces but I would like to health check. I've got an odd timekeeping situation with an IWC Aquatimer, for example; wound on the watch winder and checking with WatchTracker about +10spd, but in my wrist about +1 min spd or more! I'd like to know what's going on with that, plus i have a general feeling that my less expensive watches, (speedbird, CWC) keep as good or better time than the Rolex's etc. Being of a scientific persuasion I'd like hard evidence one way or the other.
Is there anything I'd lose out on with 1000? Don't mind spending a bit more, I'm sure it will sell on if I get fed up of watches!
As an addendum to this post, I have one of the cheap ones where you can set beat and lift angle manually, although the auto detect works 99% of the time.Originally Posted by walkerwek1958
Where it doesn't work at all is on co-axial escapements. You just get a load of random dots on the screen and it can't detect even the beat.
So, if you have co ax's, spend a bit more money and get one like Paul's
Don't yet, but I might. Though I thought I read somewhere the 1000 unit now does read coax
Mine will be a couple of years old now I think. I can't check the paperwork, as the box is in the UK, and I'm not
My model 1000 was purchased about 2 years ago from ebay for about £120 and reads the 2500 and 3313 Co-ax movements just fine. It auto detects the beat rate on both but you need to remember to set the correct lift angle which is much lower than most at around 36 deg or so if you want meaningful amplitude readings. I havent tried it on a 8500 movement but I have no reason to suspect it won't work.
Last edited by Padders; 29th May 2017 at 18:51.
The 1900 is better value I think. Allows to set the beat and lift angle, can the 1000 do this as a software update?edit: ah just read that it can now...)
It also gives a colour representation that helps with adjustment, at least that's what I have found, and also allows gain control which has helped pin point the beat without being mislead as to lots of noise on the screen pointing to a problem.
Paul, that was a good price for one of those. It'd be nice to understand more about these things and what else they can tell me. At the moment I 'just' look for the BE, rate and amp.
Last edited by Bodo; 29th May 2017 at 19:31.
Did anyone ever try this one?
https://frederiqueconstant.com/analytics/
Price was quite reasonable..
A well regulated Speedbird or CWC will give a better performance than a Rolex that's not so well regulated, but the precision won`t be as good. If you look at the positional agreement you'll see what I mean.
As for the watch that's running fast on the wrist (one minute per day if I`ve understood correctly), there's definitely a problem if it runs at +10 secs/day on a winder. It's possible that the spring isn`t slipping inside the barrel correctly causing the watch to overbank and run fast. Onl;y way to simulate this is to put it on a Timegrapher with the caseback off the carefully rotate the rotor to simulate fully wound/spring slipping situation. If the amplitude becomes very high (>340°) and the trace goes crazy you've got a problem; leaving the watch to run a minute or so and it'll appear correct. I`ve seen it a couple of times with Orient watches.
It helps to do some background reading to learn more about mechanical watches and the factors affecting the performance. One of the major differences between the best watches and lesser ones is the poise of the balance, that affects positional agreement markedly.
Paul
Any real difference - for a beginner - between the Weishi 1000 and 1900 models?
As far as I can see on the net, the 1900 has a larger display (with colour) that allows it to display more (eg parameter names, not just numbers and units) with a longer trace (196 points vs 480 points according to Amazon). There may be other differences...
Gain control and also setting beat is easier as you can see coloured lines where you can see them overlap, makes it easier to know if you've gone to far either way. Gain control is handy.
Good enough for me: I'll go for the 1900.
Thanks for the replies.
Out of interest, if you want to know more about what these machines are telling you (I remember the cheap one I had didn't come with any idea of how to read the output), have a read of pages 5 to 15 of this.
Regards, Chris
The results from a Chinese timegrapher can be used to interpret whats going on with regards rate, beat and amplitude using the graphical trace and that's more than enough for most enthusiasts.
Those pages are useful to understanding the graphical trace but they also refer to interpreting the other displays of a Witschi Chronoscope which if you repair watches for a living is an invaluable tool. The amount of information you can glean from the various displays is amazing with regards to tracking down escapement issues, and the predicted rate on the sequence screen is amazingly accurate. heres a couple of snapshots of a Breitling I serviced today, before (after a full wind of the mainspring) and after.
The predicted rate is the row marked X, this watch will be on the final test machine for a few days now and I bet the rate doesn't deviate from the predicted one by more than a second either way, probably less than that. I still have a Chinese timegrapher that I use to get the rough timings done when the train is assembled but the results do vary from what the Chronoscope tells me and of course you don't get the granularity of it either. Having said all that at fraction of the price of a Chronoscope the timegrapher is a very useful tool.
Yes, perhaps I should have said pages 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, virtually all of 11 plus 14 and 15. Agree that pages 12 and 13 might be a little confusing. I saw that the question of reading these graphs had been raised and I think the background of how the graphs are generated is useful.
I think that if you have no formal training, this document is the best explanation you can find and often point people to it but apologies for not removing those pages that might be confusing.
Regards, Chris
For those of you who don't like reading
https://youtu.be/QwUXg4YNgrY
No need to apologise as I wasn't criticising, I think that document an excellent reference for how a timing machine actually works. My point was with a simple timing machine there is a limit to what you can interpret from the graphical data and having access to a machine that does more than generate a synthetic beat will give you a lot more diagnostic options. A simple timegrapher is still a great bit of kit though and I wouldn't be without mine
For those too lazy to read or watch a video - what on Earth is "lift angle"?
It's the angle of the arc that the impulse jewel is in contact with the pallet fork horns.
Oh right. That clears that one up then.
You did ask
An expert will probably explain better but it's essentially an angle measurement of the interaction between the impulse jewel and the pallet fork.
Looking from above... As the balance starts it's swing anti clockwise the pallet fork is in its left position ready for the impulse jewel to come in and make contact. The swing of the balance brings the impulse jewel into the pallet fork and just as it touches the pallet fork draw an imaginary line through the centre of the impulse jewel & the balance centre. That's the start of the measurement. Then the (still swinging anti clock) balance rolls the impulse jewel through the pallet fork and the pallet fork ticks over fully to the right. The balance carries on until it reaches its spring limit and starts its return in the clockiswe direction. As it comes back clockwise and the pallet fork is in the right position the next measurement line you'll draw is the same as before, just as the impulse jewel makes contact with the pallet fork.
If you take these two imaginary lines looking from the top you'll get a V shape and that's where the angle is measured.
As I say, I'm sure an expert can explain better but that's how I understand the angle.
Although you said you you're too lazy to read so probably just wasted my time haha
Darn, there you go. Knew I should have refreshed before posting!
Funnily enough I was thinking of getting one for play, I was going to get the 1000, I did wonder if these chinese ones where any good, I shall now perhaps order the 1900 instaed, looking at approx £150 on ebay?
Scottie
Have to admit to being slightly envious of Duncan’s chronoscope! Brilliant piece of kit but not something I can justify spending on given my level of activity thesedays. Duncan’s aquiring some nice toys and he’s clearly taking this watch-fettling very seriously........and rightly so!
I definitely recommend the Chinese Timegraphers, a better way for an enthusiast to spend money than a fancy watchwinder or expensive strap in my view. Being able to check the health of your watches is a big advantage, but it pays to do some learning to interpret the readings to avoid making wrong inferences. You can’t expect a 60 year old watch to give as clean a trace as a new watch unless it’s had a disproportionate amount of money spent on new parts, but the timegrapher will confirm that it’s still in good health and performing within realistic expectations.
I’ve had no problems with readings from co-axial Omegas, it’s pin-pallet movements mine can’t cope with.
Paul
Interesting, what happens with PP movements? Don't they give a clean enough trace for the machine to track?
I do agree that even the cheapest Chinese machine is a god send for checking those 'recently serviced' ebay claims as any bs is spotted immediately when the amplitude is in fact 200deg or whatever and it is running like a bag of bolts.
Do any of these work for hummers or megaquartz?
Not sure whether the expensive Swiss models work with pin pallet movements, but my Chinese one doesn’t. I think it gets the signal mixed up, it gives readings but they don’t relate to what’s really happening.
A Timegrapher definitely won’t work with a hummer abd as far as I’m aware they don’t pick up anything from a quartz movement.
Paul
Is there anything that can check a hummer to help regulation?
I've got an f300 that's been serviced in the last year or so, sometimes is spot on, sometimes gains minutes a day. Not sure why.
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