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Thread: Giving a vintage gold Longines some TLC

  1. #1
    Grand Master Der Amf's Avatar
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    Giving a vintage gold Longines some TLC

    I bought this lovely little thing from the SC about 15 months ago.



    zsayub116610 had sold it to Baden H who sold it to champagne_james who gave it a well-earned wipe with a Cape Cod cloth and then sold it to me. During this final appearance on the SC, the following useful post appeared:

    Quote Originally Posted by aroma View Post
    It looks like a 12.68ZS movement (the S = centre seconds) - this was a lovely high quality movement with gold chatons - from the days when Longines competed head on with the best. The serial number seems to be in the 11 million area and that dates it to 1960. The movement was probably imported as a 'bare movement' into the UK and it was cased here by the importer - OWC did this for Omega. The case looks like a Dennison 9kt 13322 clipback - it should have a serial number and hallmark date letter which would confirm the movement date. Bearing in mind that these watches (cases and movements) were held in stock before being shipped, the inscription on the caseback is in line with the production dates.

    This is a very nice and original vintage Longines - if I wasn't being strict with myself, I'd have had this by now.

    GLWTS
    Ranfft dates the design of the 12.68ZS to 1938: http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-...ngines_12_68ZS

    The Dennison 13322 in 9ct gold was also used for Omega watches, eg http://www.vintage-watches-collectio...ega-gold-1954/

    I've recently been having a cull, and decided that if this watch was going to stay with me, it needed to be fussed over a bit. It was gaining a minute a day, which seemed a bit much for a Longines, even one from 1960, the crystal was comprehensively scratched and the case had a bit of tarnish in the corners which the Cape Cod cloth couldn't reach.

    This afternoon I received some photos of its treatment, which I thought might be appreciated. I'll let he who is responsible for them unveil himself :)

    "Numbers inside the case back, Dennison hallmarked Birmingham 1960 (Arthur Baume was the importer for Longines)"


    "Should be able to make out the movement serial number in this pic (Calibre 12.68ZS No.11004969)"

    "Some light spotting on the dial and indices (not much I can do to fix that unfortunately)"

    "If you look at the jewel on the right, you will see a small fragment of metal just off centre to the left. It doesn't come out well in the picture but the jewel in the centre of the picture was very dry and dirt had collected around the pivot."


    "The watch certainly is not in bad condition although there was quite a few bits of dust, hairs and the odd bit of metal fragments around the movement (All tiny, but certainly better if they are not there) I also found a few places where the movement should have been oiled but it was either dry or the oil had gotten dirty. I noticed that the jewels at either end of the balance staff were particularly dry. You can see the dark dried oil on this one and a small hair near the top"


    "You can see the pivots are a little rusted and worn on this one. Once it has gone through the cleaning cycle I will be able to see clearer the extent of the wear, if it is particularly bad I will try to source a replacement for you."


    It has not been possible to source an exact replacement for the crystal, but I've made a choice from two possible options, one which I think does best to retain both the shape of the profile and the character of the watch. The case is going to be give an ultrasonic clean, which hopefully will give it a freshness in the nooks and crannies to go with the gleam that James' Cape Cod treatment has given it.

    While the watch has been away, my watch drawer has been missing its glamour, and having only ever seen the beautiful dial and hands through a glass darkly, I'm very much looking forward to finally being able to see them virtually face to face.
    Last edited by Der Amf; 29th July 2017 at 20:21.

  2. #2
    Good to see its getting some love!

    Vintage Longines offer so much value. That watch especially has a lot of character and a stunning dial.

  3. #3
    Grand Master magirus's Avatar
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    I recall that being for sale, it's a beauty.
    F.T.F.A.

  4. #4
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    Really interesting write up - thanks Der Amf. Lovely little watch

  5. #5
    Grand Master RustyBin5's Avatar
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    Interesting read. Thanks for sharing. I've only recently gotten a little interest in vintage Longines since my own handwind came into my possession. It's a 302 movement which is the updated version of the 30L. Lots of differences to your movement (it has a sub seconds for a start but you can see the similarities. They don't make dress watches like this anymore. Timeless elegance. Hope it gives you many years reward for your efforts in bringing its health back to rude status. Pics of mine for your info below


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  6. #6
    Grand Master Der Amf's Avatar
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    A large measure of the appeal of this watch for me is in its deviation from the standard dress watch script: centre seconds rather than small seconds; numerals rather than indices; lugs that flow out of the side of the case rather than straight lugs; masses of lume. I had known for a while that I wanted a 9kt Longines - 9kt, because that was a traditional post-war British thing, one connected with import duties; Longines, because Swatch's modern-day positioning of the Longines and Omega brandnames has significantly polarised vintage prices of watches that weren't so far apart back in the day. The combination of a Dennison case and these cheeky not-so-dressy features made this watch irresistible as it sat there on the SC, smiling at me



    It's important to dress correctly when wearing a watch like this

    edit: didn't James choose well for the strap? :)
    Last edited by Der Amf; 29th July 2017 at 20:23.

  7. #7
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    Definitely gets the thumbs-up from me!

    Several years ago I owned a 50s Omega in a similar style, very cool IMO. Enjoy.

    Paul

  8. #8
    Master murkeywaters's Avatar
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    I'm in the same boat as you as I have just purchased a 9ct 1960 Omega with a Denison case, as you say they have a class to them that sets them apart from modern dress watches..

    The history behind the English case and Swiss movement is interesting and sets them apart from the later watches.

    Ironically it's with Paul now for a repair and make over.

  9. #9
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    Beautiful Watch!! and man you have all my respect for what you have done!!! thumbs up!!

    PS i'm into vintages too, i have 2 omega 50's and 70's respectively, linen dial and floral dial.. and a tudor prince date.. all of them are in good shape i would say, but i really would like to restore them, especially the floral dial one.. is it possible for your man to have a look at mine and see what can it be done to it?

    thanks a lot




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  10. #10
    Grand Master Der Amf's Avatar
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    Some more photos to enjoy, as it progresses:

    "As you can see the parts are looking a lot cleaner"


    "The wheel I was worried about with the rust even looks better for a bath, there was still a bit wear in the pivot but not enough that I would consider replacing it yet"


    "Balance wheel and pallet lever"



    "the amplitude is around 60 degrees better and the timing machine is showing within 10 s/d"

  11. #11
    Master Man of Kent's Avatar
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    It's a good job I don't own this watch; I'd be forever tempted to keep popping the back off to peek inside.

  12. #12
    A lovely quality watch in a quality English case - an heirloom I think.
    Cheers

  13. #13
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    Great pics

    Loving the pics along the way!!

    This is like a little mini soap opera for WIS😂 You are waiting for the next episode so you can get the whole story in!!!

    Loving how detailed those pictures are!! Imagine if that's how a mechanic dealt with your car by sending you detailed pictures of each part as it's taken off and repaired or replaced ??

    Keep them coming!!

    Chris

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by aroma View Post
    A lovely quality watch in a quality English case - an heirloom I think.
    Cheers
    Something that made me *especially* drawn to this case was that I already had one Dennison case, this one in sterling silver from forty years earlier. The dial and hands are very generic, and the movement, a common A Schild, but in its top grade (15 jewels, nice decoration)

    Last edited by Der Amf; 29th July 2017 at 20:24.

  15. #15
    Grand Master Der Amf's Avatar
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    Things got a bit delayed by my having to go away unexpectedly. The watch is ready to be sent back to me....shame about the bank holiday this monday So I'll be flooding the thread with my own photos in four days time. I've been told, "it is back together, time keeping appears to be OK (not great but easily wearable around +- 10sec territory)" - which is a massive improvement on the +72s/d we had beforehand so I'm very happy about that.

    So often when taking photos of the watch, I had to search and search for anglesin which the light caught the indices and hands but didn't show how scratched the crystal was - the picture in the OP, although showing plenty, was hiding far far more - so I am really looking forward to being rid of that limitation! One thing I've been concerned about for a while was retaining the shape of the profile whilst replacing the crystal. The original is seemingly no longer available. The options were either sitting lower down or - the one I chose - coming slightly higher. If look look at the profile as it was, the curve of the front nicely balances the curve of the back, giving the whole watch a nice thick nuggetty feel. I think a lower crystal would look too sleek and modern, and would upset the balance more than erring on the slightly higher side. Fingers crossed

    Last edited by Der Amf; 29th July 2017 at 20:25.

  16. #16
    Master animalone's Avatar
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    A little bit taller, but still in keeping with the watch

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by animalone View Post
    A little bit taller, but still in keeping with the watch
    My eyes have got used to that new shape already

  18. #18
    Grand Master Der Amf's Avatar
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    Going through a cupboard just now, came across these: the original box and the original strap



    Last edited by Der Amf; 29th July 2017 at 20:26.

  19. #19
    Master ordo's Avatar
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    Longines is my first love when it comes to watches, especially vintage. Thanks for the pictures. Were the close-ups taken with a microscope ? Is it digital ?

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by ordo View Post
    Longines is my first love when it comes to watches, especially vintage. Thanks for the pictures. Were the close-ups taken with a microscope ? Is it digital ?
    Microscope and my phone camera (low tech but effective)

  21. #21
    Grand Master Der Amf's Avatar
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    Apologies from my Samsung phone for always getting confused by the colours of this watch, either washing them out or overegging them, and generally losing all the poetry of the glimmering gold

    At last I can see the dial :) It now seems to have a warmer feel - previously it had more of a blue-ish tinge - I didn't know scraped up acrylic would do that. Live and learn.









    The readouts showing how pleased the movement was to get serviced



    The ancient crystal was so brittle it didn't survive being replaced. See how scratched up it was



    Included in the parcel was a little something that will go down very well at the next g2g I go to :D



    I'm absolutely delighted: a clearer dial and fresher case and the knowledge that the movement is in good shape. Thank you animalone!
    Last edited by Der Amf; 29th July 2017 at 20:31.

  22. #22
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    Lovely thing - I have a similar one that was my Grandfather's long service gift - it's suffered a little from being in daily use by both him and my late father so the case is not as sharp:




  23. #23
    Grand Master Der Amf's Avatar
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    Ah, that reminds me! I was so quick to get it on my wrist that I forgot to look at the back - the inscription is now correctly aligned with the crown above the text:



    Presented to
    John Jackson
    ☆ by ☆
    J. & P. Coats, Ltd.
    for loyal service
    1923 - 1963

    Even back then Coats was a old firm with roots deep in the Industrial Revolution: "In 1755 James and Patrick Clark began a loom equipment and silk thread business in Paisley, Scotland."

    The company still exists, as Coats Group plc, "the world's largest manufacturer and distributor of sewing thread and supplies, and the second-largest manufacturer of zips and fasteners."
    Last edited by Der Amf; 29th July 2017 at 20:31.

  24. #24
    Grand Master Der Amf's Avatar
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    And here it is, back in the heart of my recently-pruned collection, adding a bit of glamour.



    Nivrel, my main watch; Casio Edifice; grey Seiko; gold Longines; Longines Admiral; brown-fade Seiko Lord Matic; silver Dennison/Schild
    Last edited by Der Amf; 29th July 2017 at 20:33.

  25. #25
    Great thread to read and a stunning vintage piece.

    For my edification, whats the significance of a Dennison case as opposed to other 3rd party case manufacturers of the time? I see Dennison cases lovingly mentioned in vintage discussions quite often but don't know anything about the company or why those cases seem to be celebrated.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by fordy964 View Post
    Great thread to read and a stunning vintage piece.

    For my edification, whats the significance of a Dennison case as opposed to other 3rd party case manufacturers of the time? I see Dennison cases lovingly mentioned in vintage discussions quite often but don't know anything about the company or why those cases seem to be celebrated.
    I think that it's because they slowly built a very solid reputation, and as the century went on, moved further upmarket. So there are plenty of good honest examples of modest cases, and then slightly later more impressive work. Here's a good link: http://www.watchprosite.com/page-wf....88/pi-4706578/

    The last section of Wikipedia page on this guy explains the how the British company got its name from an American watchmaker: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Lufkin_Dennison
    Last edited by Der Amf; 31st May 2017 at 13:44.

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    Last edited by Der Amf; 29th July 2017 at 20:34.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Der Amf View Post
    previously it had more of a blue-ish tinge - I didn't know scraped up acrylic would do that.
    The old plastic crystals discolour with age, this is just an example I have lying around but I have seen ones that actually look green

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Der Amf View Post
    I think that it's because they slowly built a very solid reputation, and as the century went on, moved further upmarket. So there are plenty of examples of good honest examples of modest cases, and then slightly later more impressive work. Here's a good link: http://www.watchprosite.com/page-wf....88/pi-4706578/

    The last section of Wikipedia page on this guy explains the how the British company got its name from an American watchmaker: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Lufkin_Dennison
    Excellent links. Thanks :-)

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by animalone View Post
    The old plastic crystals discolour with age, this is just an example I have lying around but I have seen ones that actually look green
    I am *so* glad to hear that I'm not just going nuts! Was a little bit worried when I made that observation 😊

    Do you think the sonic clean lightened the case a tiny tiny bit too? I always used to think it looked more like RG than YG, something which I put down to a combination of whatever else is used in 9kt gold and the passing of time.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Der Amf View Post
    I am *so* glad to hear that I'm not just going nuts! Was a little bit worried when I made that observation 

    Do you think the sonic clean lightened the case a tiny tiny bit too? I always used to think it looked more like RG than YG, something which I put down to a combination of whatever else is used in 9kt gold and the passing of time.
    I'm not an expert on the chemistry of the alloy, but I remember being told that there is quite a high silver content in 9ct gold and this can lead to a tarnishing on the surface of the metal. Cleaning would have removed the tarnish making the gold look brighter.
    Old rose gold alloys are known to get less rose with age (apart from Rolex who use platinum to stabilise the long term colour) It normally takes decades to become noticeable though, so cleaning probably would have little effect.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by animalone View Post
    Microscope and my phone camera (low tech but effective)
    I just found this quote in one of the earlier SC adverts for this: "The watch was serviced a couple of years ago by the previous owner". I was wondering if you had an opinion on this claim? ;) In the absence of paperwork, I work on the presumption that such claims are nonsense.
    Last edited by Der Amf; 31st May 2017 at 19:03.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Der Amf View Post
    I just found this quote in one of the earlier SC adverts for this: "The watch was serviced a couple of years ago by the previous owner". I was wondering if you had an opinion on this claim? ;) In the absence of paperwork, I work on the presumption that such claims are nonsense.
    All I can do is point you back to my observations when I first looked at the watch
    "The watch certainly is not in bad condition although there was quite a few bits of dust, hairs and the odd bit of metal fragments around the movement (All tiny, but certainly better it they are not there)
    I also found a few places where the movement should have been oiled but it was either dry or the oil was dirty. I noticed that the jewels at either end of the balance staff were particularly dry"
    I can only speak from my point of view because I don't know for a fact what work was previously done on the watch, so I'm not making accusations just offering my thoughts.
    I would have expected a recently serviced watch to still have a reasonable quantity of oil where it should have been and certainly not to have rust on the wheel pivots (especially when there was none elsewhere that would have indicated water ingress)
    I never changed the mainspring or polished any of the pivots and yet the amplitude improved by over 60° with a clean and oil that shows that the movement was not running as free as it should have been.

  34. #34
    Grand Master Der Amf's Avatar
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    The original vendor of the watch on the SC also claimed the watch was 36mm and 18kt, rather than 34mm and 9kt, and later was the subject of the longest ever Villain thread, so I think we can safely presume that he was telling yet another fib here 😊

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Der Amf View Post
    The original vendor of the watch on the SC also claimed the watch was 36mm and 18kt, rather than 34mm and 9kt, and later was the subject of the longest ever Villain thread, so I think we can safely presume that he was telling yet another fib here 
    What we can say for sure is that it needed a service, at least it has found a home where it will be appreciated

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by animalone View Post
    What we can say for sure is that it needed a service, at least it has found a home where it will be appreciated
    When I was having my minicull recently, I did try to goad myself into chopping this too, but - very pleasingly - I found that I wasn't having any of that. So I said, if you're staying, we're going to have to get you putting your best foot forward, been making allowances for you a bit too long. And now it is :) I'm glad we decided not to bother polishing it any more - if the case was flawless, it would just make the dial's signs of age more apparent. As it is, everything is nicely balanced and I'm not noticing anything. The simplicity of it is able to *shine out* now.

  37. #37
    Grand Master Der Amf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Der Amf View Post
    It was gaining a minute a day, which seemed a bit much for a Longines
    Quote Originally Posted by Der Amf View Post
    "the amplitude is around 60 degrees better and the timing machine is showing within 10 s/d"
    After a day's wear and a night's rest, it's -12s 😊

    Now I've got all the serial numbers etc, I think I'm in a position to email Longines historical records department.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by animalone View Post
    I'm not an expert on the chemistry of the alloy, but I remember being told that there is quite a high silver content in 9ct gold and this can lead to a tarnishing on the surface of the metal. Cleaning would have removed the tarnish making the gold look brighter.
    The Longines I posted above has already turned darker since the post-service photos taken over a year ago. It's not an unpleasant colour so I don't see a need to regularly polish it off.

  39. #39
    Grand Master Der Amf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scepticalist View Post
    The Longines I posted above has already turned darker since the post-service photos taken over a year ago. It's not an unpleasant colour so I don't see a need to regularly polish it off.
    Yes, I rather liked the general tone of the case, and won't be sorry when it regains that extra bit of depth, but in some corners it was as ugly as the tarnish on sterling silver, so it wanted doing.

    Since its the silver content in it that causes the tarnish, could 9kt gold be cleaned in the same way as silver, eg with Goddards etc?

    (I remember once being told on one forum or another that I shouldn't polish my silver too often because of the amount of metal it removed.....think that was the day I realised just how much people will confidently repeat snippets of information that they've picked up in contexts they don't really understand)

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Der Amf View Post
    Yes, I rather liked the general tone of the case, and won't be sorry when it regains that extra bit of depth, but in some corners it was as ugly as the tarnish on sterling silver, so it wanted doing.

    Since its the silver content in it that causes the tarnish, could 9kt gold be cleaned in the same way as silver, eg with Goddards etc?

    (I remember once being told on one forum or another that I shouldn't polish my silver too often because of the amount of metal it removed.....think that was the day I realised just how much people will confidently repeat snippets of information that they've picked up in contexts they don't really understand)
    Every time you polish something you will be removing tiny amounts metal from it and that wear will mount up over the years. For your Longines I would use a silver cloth when it starts to look tarnished as the chemical it is treated with removes most of the tarnish so it should only need a light wipe to do the job, certainly better for the case than repeated brasso assault in the long run.

  41. #41
    Grand Master Der Amf's Avatar
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    I don't think the guy recommending I let the tarnish build up on my silver watch knew the Goddard cloth to lapping machine exchange rate.

  42. #42
    Grand Master Der Amf's Avatar
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    Oh this thread has been well the truly fotobucked hasn't it? 😭 I looked it up to have a nostalgic read through, having just noticed that in the two months since getting it back this Longines has been my second most worn watch

    Will see if I can pop a couple of photos in via tapatalk to replace all the deadlinks 😐

    Edit: and done. That was a labour of love!
    Last edited by Der Amf; 29th July 2017 at 20:35.

  43. #43
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    I find that a light wipe with a rouge cloth takes the tarnish off 9ct gold.......don't go mad with it!

    The watch now looks superb and it's good to hear that it's good to hear that it's running well after a dose of TLC. It's always fair to assume that watches like this will need servicing, in most cases the watch will run fine after being thoroughly cleaned and re-oiled correctly. A new crystal works wonders too, particularly if the dial and hands are in good condition.

    Paul

  44. #44
    Master seffrican's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Der Amf View Post
    Oh this thread has been well the truly fotobucked hasn't it?  I looked it up to have a nostalgic read through, having just noticed that in the two months since getting it back this Longines has been my second most worn watch

    Will see if I can pop a couple of photos in via tapatalk to replace all the deadlinks 

    Edit: and done. That was a labour of love!
    Thanks for putting up the pics again. I missed this thread the first time round, so I read it in its entirety today. Lovely watch, nice story, and an excellent happy ending.

    Wear it in rude health.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by seffrican View Post
    Wear it in rude health.
    I was wearing it on Friday (cooking, eating, going down the pub) and when I came to put it on on Saturday morning lunchtime I found some Friday night's dinner stuck to the side of it. At least, that's what I'm hoping it was.

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