Distant star behaving strangely - is it aliens?

[Velorum]

The star KIC 8462852 (Tabby's Star) which is just over 1200 light years from earth has been the subject of scientific curiosity for a few years now.

Apparently its intensity decreases and increases in a way that cannot be explained in the usual way. I watched a BBC4 documentary on it recently where a number of eminent scientist's put forward the hypothesis that this could be due to a highly advanced civilisation harvesting its power via something akin to a Dyson Sphere.



Tabby's Star:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KIC_8462852

Dyson Sphere:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyson_sphere

Last month a significant drop in intensity was noted and many astronomers are booking time urgently at observatories to study what is going on.

Opinion about aliens will follow the usual lines I guess but this intense burst of study may come up with something unexpected and very interesting - artificial or natural in origin.

Sky news article:
http://news.sky.com/story/astronomer...-star-10885978

[bitfield]

There is something fascinating going on at Tabby's Star. Its light is fluctuating in a way that we've not seen before with any other star. This could mean that the star is behaving in a way we don't understand, or that there is something extraordinary orbiting it.

Normally we detect exoplanets by the dimming of the parent star as the planet passes between it and us, but the variation of Tabby's Star is so enormous that no conceivable planet could account for it.

One hypothesis is that instead of a single body it could be lots of smaller bodies close together. This could be a swarm of comets, for example, or a planet that's broken up.

Aliens are one possible, but unlikely, explanation, but then aliens are a possible but unlikely explanation for anything strange we see in the night sky. Over the years we've seen lots of strange things, none of which turned out to be due to aliens. In most cases we discovered something new we didn't know about the natural universe, and this will probably be the same.

Our default response to news stories about aliens should be the same as Lister's in 'Red Dwarf':

Lister: Your explanation for anything slightly peculiar is aliens, isn't it? You lose your keys, it's aliens. A picture falls off the wall, it's aliens. That time we used up a whole bog roll in a day, you thought that was aliens as well.
Rimmer: Well we didn't use it all, Lister. Who did?
Lister: Rimmer, ALIENS used our bog roll?
Rimmer: Just cause they're aliens doesn't mean to say they don't have to visit the little boys' room. Only they probably do something weird and alien-esque, like it comes out of the top of their heads or something.
Lister: Well I wouldn't like to be stuck behind one in a cinema.

[stefmcd]

I say we probe it....

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[learningtofly]

Given that the capability to harvest energy from a star is a requirement of the Kardeshev scale (so not something that the scientific community shies away from), I'm going to assume a visit is imminent!

[robcat]

Can't help thinking of Red Dwarf:

"Your explanation for anything slightly peculiar is aliens, isn't it? You lose your keys, it's aliens. A picture falls off the wall, it's aliens. That time we used up a whole bog roll in a day, you thought that was aliens, as well."

[Go Big]

And there's me thinking a Dyson Sphere is some kind of new vacuum cleaner....

That said, it's interesting stuff, thanks for posting.

[matt666]

If they're advanced enough to make a Dyson Sphere we're probably not even on their radar as being interesting enough to bother with. We'll be a bit like a colony of woodlice under a paving slab.

[bond]

Speaking of dysons , has anyone seen the ending of Spaceballs ? It may well be this -


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[bond]

From suck to blow !


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[hilly10]

Would it take long to get there and investigate?

[Velorum]

I believe that at the speed our fastest spacecraft can travel at it would take 28 million years.

I presume that what is now been observed and commented on actually occurred over one thousand years ago. If this did involve some kind of Dyson sphere / swarm intervention then whomever was responsible will have advanced much further by now.

>>edit - sorry that should be 24 million years<<

[alfat33]

Would it take long to get there and investigate?

Travelling at the speed of light, the theoretical maximum, 2400 years there and back.

More realistically, travelling at the speed of the fastest spacecraft so far built by us, more like 3 million years there and back, give or take.

[Velorum]

Travelling at the speed of light, the theoretical maximum, 2400 years there and back.

More realistically, travelling at the speed of the fastest spacecraft so far built by us, more like 3 million years there and back, give or take.

At a speed of Mach 47 (what can be achieved by the fastest spacecraft to date - the New Horizons probe) it would take just under 20,000 years to travel just one light year. To cover 1,200 light years I make that 24,000,000 years.

[Glamdring]

I believe that at the speed our fastest spacecraft can travel at it would take 28 million years.

I presume that what is now been observed and commented on actually occurred over one thousand years ago. If this did involve some kind of Dyson sphere / swarm intervention then whomever was responsible will have advanced much further by now.

Would they need to? A Dyson sphere requires tech beyond our imagining and the resources of thousands of planets. The next stage would be going incorporeal. Where's the fun in that?

[Paddy!]

So going by what people have said above, it's possible that what we are watching now is aliens harnessing power from a star all that time ago, which could theoretically have been used to fuel a spacecraft capable of almost speed of light travel.

They'll be here soon then.

The next stage would be going incorporeal. Where's the fun in that?

Ladies changing rooms.

[alfat33]

At a speed of Mach 47 (what can be achieved by the fastest spacecraft to date - the New Horizons probe) it would take just under 20,000 years to travel just one light year. To cover 1,200 light years I make that 24,000,000 years.

I think that's right, but I was going for The Solar Probe which launches next year and is going to be quite a bit faster at roughly 1,500 years to cover a light year. That said, it's all a bit moot, as these speeds are only achieved when these craft are heading towards a large object like the sun.

http://solarprobe.jhuapl.edu

[Velorum]

Next stage incorporeal?

It sounds good to me.

The pleasure (or illusion of it) that we derive from physicality is nothing more than electrical stimuli to various areas of our brain. We would surely be able to replicate something approximating to this even if we were without substance?

[Velorum]

So going by what people have said above, it's possible that what we are watching now is aliens harnessing power from a star all that time ago, which could theoretically have been used to fuel a spacecraft capable of almost speed of light travel.

They'll be here soon then.

If they were capable of doing something on that scale then I would have thought they would have visited some time ago. Perhaps they did.

At that level I would have thought that they would have broken the light speed barrier. NASA and other scientists say that this is theoretically possible by warping space (which in effect every object with mass does to a greater or lesser degree) - if you can imagine something then at some point you can do it. Its just a question of time, technology and resources.

[Frakius]

CYPHER : I don't want to remember nothing. Nothing! You understand? And I want to be rich. Someone important. Like an actor. You can do that, right?

AGENT SMITH : Whatever you want, Mr. Reagan.

CYPHER : All right. You get my body back in a power plant, reinsert me into the Matrix and I'll get you what you want.

I wonder if why we don't see any advanced alien civilizations is they eventually enter into some kind of permanent VR that's better than reality, once they secure that very little reason to explore the vast emptiness of the universe.

[dougair]

That's not a star...it's a space station...

It's too big to be a space station...

[soundood]

Would it take long to get there and investigate?

not too long, Northern Line extension is going in as we speak.

Given that the capability to harvest energy from a star is a requirement of the Kardeshev scale (so not something that the scientific community shies away from), I'm going to assume a visit is imminent!

and lets note, that it would need to be a level 3 Kardeshev civilization, personally I think it is just debris from multiple planets orbiting the Sun, this possibility is notably missing from the usual explanations.

[Brian]

Paging : Paging : William of Ockham please call in to the office !!!

B

[pacifichrono]

The 'people' from this system are obviously incredibly advanced compared to us. Their likely strategy when they reach earth will be to seed our world with a few of their kind, gain our respect and confidence, and maneuver into political leadership. The next move would be to initiate crazy, disruptive policies designed to destablize the populations. When society is on the verge of anarchy, the 'takeover' will be swift and sure. We must be on the alert for signs of any such crazy, disruptive world leaders...oh shit!

[hilly10]

not too long, Northern Line extension is going in as we speak.




]

Who is building it, I think it ought to be the Dyson guy seems to be involved in this quite a bit.

[TheFlyingBanana]

I think it is just debris from multiple planets orbiting the Sun, this possibility is notably missing from the usual explanations.

Well, apart from the second post in this thread by Bitfield, and the Sky News article linked to, and the Wikipedia entry also linked to...

But other than that, well done for out-thinking all the astronomers and scientists.

[steptoe]

1200 light years away..... We could be watching ourselves leaving a dying planet before we crashed and burned landing on Earth and having to start from scratch again.

[bobbee]

Quote Originally Posted by soundood

I think it is just debris from multiple planets orbiting the Sun, this possibility is notably missing from the usual explanations.

Bloody Vogons again...

[Thewatchbloke]

and lets note, that it would need to be a level 3 Kardeshev civilization

Actually, a Level 2 Kardeshev civilisation.

[snowman]

A Dyson sphere requires tech beyond our imagining

Rubbish, I've fixed a couple in my time, they're really not that complicated!

Usually a bit breaks off the filter holder...

M

[bitfield]

Travelling at the speed of light, the theoretical maximum, 2400 years there and back.

Time is one factor. By the time you got there and came back, thousands of years would have passed on Earth (though only a few years ship time) and no one would remember that you'd ever left. Assuming the human race still existed, they would probably destroy you as alien invaders. And they'd be as far advanced relative to you as we are to the ancient Romans. Much further, probably.

Money is another problem. Can you imagine how expensive such a mission would be? Right now, we have the technology to put humans on Mars, but no one is putting up the money. Heck, we won't even pay to go the Moon. Other stars are completely out of the question.

Finally, there's no reason to go. On a big enough scale, the Universe is pretty uniformly distributed; there's nothing at Tabby's Star, or even Proxima Centauri, that isn't here. Just lots of hydrogen, somewhat less helium, and traces of other elements.

It's possible, or even likely, that other civilisations have arisen or will arise in our Galaxy, but the lifetime of the universe is so long that we're very unlikely to be alive at the same time as anyone else. Even if we were, it would be virtually impossible to communicate with them. Even if we could, what would we say? Fundamentally, we'd have nothing to talk about. (Think about it. There are other intelligent species here on Earth. If we could talk to dolphins, what would we talk about?)

But luckily the question doesn't arise, because it isn't aliens. When choosing between "aliens" and "there's something about the universe we don't understand", the smart money is always on the latter.

[soundood]

Actually, a Level 2 Kardeshev civilisation.

in the documentary it stated level 3, but who am I to argue, I only have Phd in Theoretical ballbearings

[AlphaOmega]

Another great thread, V.

I suppose that because we have advanced so far in 10,000 years, and that period is so short compared with the age of the Universe, aliens are likely to be more highly evolved than we are.

It would be our bad luck to meet aliens who are less evolved than us but who are quite keen on war and would like our resources and technology.

Or worse, what if aliens were like us but from the 1970s. All kipper ties and two-tone shoes. Aliens who think Spaghetti Bolognese with Prawn Cocktail to start is the epitome of high dining. Having said that, they might have a few 5512s knocking about that we could hoover up.

[bitfield]

http://www.blastr.com/2017-5-22/ok-i...abbys-star-act

"Lots of stars get dimmer and brighter over time (we call those variable stars, and there are dozens of different types), but this one was different. The drops appeared to be mostly random in time, and while some were just little dips, some were extraordinary events. At one point, it got fainter by 15%, and then another time, it dimmed by a staggering 22%!

That’s a lot, and very difficult to explain. It would take a planet literally a million kilometers across — more than ten times larger than Jupiter, and such a planet doesn’t exist — to do this.

Another idea is that aliens are building gigantic structures around it to capture its light to power their advanced civilizations. OK, I know how unlikely that is, but that’s a testable hypothesis, and so far nothing’s turned up when we listened for them.

A more likely idea is that something is orbiting the star, maybe swarms of comets or colliding asteroids, which release huge clouds of dust that block the star. That doesn’t exactly fit what we’re seeing, though.

...

One thing that I’m finding very interesting is the quasi-periodic nature of these events. It’s not at all clear, but there may be a kinda-sorta 750 or so day cycle to these events. That implies an orbital period, something orbiting the star on that timescale. But it would have to be huge, far larger than the star.

But that doesn’t mean it’s a solid object. If, for example, you had a big asteroid or even a planet orbiting the star that got whacked by something big, like another asteroid or a comet, it could have blasted so much dust and debris off the surface that it surrounds the object in a cloud, and even spread out along the orbit.

...

This star is a real mystery! There’s some good evidence that it’s been fading more or less steadily for a century or so, and took a dip of nearly 3% over the course of four years. That’s really odd behavior, and difficult to explain without some sort of ad hoc argument. Clouds of material in the way still makes the most sense, but we need more data.

It looks like that data is really coming in."

[Thewatchbloke]

in the documentary it stated level 3, but who am I to argue, I only have Phd in Theoretical ballbearings

Have you never kept up with the Kardeshevians? Kims arse is so large it draws all the energy from our sun.

[DangerBabz]

It is definately aliens!!! Or ....


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[Tokyo Tokei]

[...] At one point, it got fainter by 15%, and then another time, it dimmed by a staggering 22%! [...] There’s some good evidence that it’s been fading more or less steadily for a century or so

If it hits "creamy" may I be first to say, stunning.

[Alboy]

Very interesting read, thank you for posting.


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[derek_faker]

If it is an alien megastructure, and we can see light coming from it, we should be able to receive radio signals from it. This is of course assuming that they use some sort of RF communication system, as we do.


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[soundood]

If it is an alien megastructure, and we can see light coming from it, we should be able to receive radio signals from it. This is of course assuming that they use some sort of RF communication system, as we do.


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with this type of theorizing, we should be able to smell what ice cream they eat, this is of course assuming they eat the same flavours as we do.

[bitfield]

If it is an alien megastructure, and we can see light coming from it, we should be able to receive radio signals from it. This is of course assuming that they use some sort of RF communication system, as we do.

Right. See post #33. Radio telescopes have been pointed at the star and we've heard nothing.

Also, if it were an alien megastructure designed to gather solar energy, we should see that energy being re-radiated as infra-red (heat). We don't.

Also, if the putative aliens were advanced enough to build a structure ten times the size of Jupiter, I doubt they'd need to collect solar energy.

It's not aliens. It is something extremely interesting and important, scientifically speaking, so let's be excited about that, instead of aliens.

[Geoff W]

Right. See post #33. Radio telescopes have been pointed at the star and we've heard nothing.

Also, if it were an alien megastructure designed to gather solar energy, we should see that energy being re-radiated as infra-red (heat). We don't.

Also, if the putative aliens were advanced enough to build a structure ten times the size of Jupiter, I doubt they'd need to collect solar energy.

It's not aliens. It is something extremely interesting and important, scientifically speaking, so let's be excited about that, instead of aliens.

Finally a voice of reason.

[Brian]

Finally a voice of reason.

Right on brother - A Dyson sphere - yeah right!! something that does a job at ten to fifteen times the cost of the cheapest option

http://www.dyson.co.uk/fansandheater...FQcUGwodTzsIeA

Oh and :

http://metro.co.uk/2017/05/31/we-mig...-2021-6674389/


Aliens ...................non !!

[bitfield]

http://metro.co.uk/2017/05/31/we-mig...-2021-6674389/

'Aliens' remains a possible but unlikely explanation for any observed phenomena you care to name. Pizza leftovers disappeared from the fridge? It could be aliens, but 'hungry flatmate' is higher up the list.

'Giant ringed planet plus comets' is a pretty complicated explanation for the periodic dimming, but currently we have nothing better. It still doesn't explain the gradual and progressive dimming of Tabby's Star over many years.