The problem is that an expert can verify whether a Rolex is genuine or not, but there is no way on earth they could verify if the papers are genuine or not. They could say they look ok, but that is as far as they could go.Originally Posted by aldfort
I here you loud and clear Mick, all I was trying to say was that having box and papers as part of a package, along with, let's say the original receipt (unlikely on a vintage piece) might help to weed out any attempt to defraud the buyer. Maybe I'm just being too naïve............
Alan
The most likely scenario is that Mr Nasty bit of work buys a genuine Rolex without papers. He buys a good set of fake papers for around £50 and sells the "full set" onto you for a lot more than he paid for it. He is a crook.
Then say a few years later, you sell the watch, in all good faith, to me as a full set and a few years later I do the same to someone else.
We have a genuine Rolex and a bit of scrap paper which we have both well over the odds for.
Really? I thought it's quite straightforward what I'm saying. Panerai fakes are very good so buying one is a lottery - with me so far? Good. Panerai fake papers and boxes have easily spottable mistakes apparently. So having full triple box and papers with your Panerai reduces the risk. Sure your smarter-than-the-average-bear scammer could put a real box and papers with a fake watch but then you would have to add the proper serial number onto the fake to match the real papers? Possible but less likely. Nothings foolproof but every little helps. I'm no Panerai expert but have friends who love them and basing this on what THEY tell me. So yes I stand by the comment that a Panerai without box papers is much more of a lottery. Nothing else I can do to explain it- Don't know why your getting so hung up on it really. Oh well
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http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.ph...Panerai+canaryReally? I thought it's quite straightforward what I'm saying. Panerai fakes are very good so buying one is a lottery - with me so far? Good. Panerai fake papers and boxes have easily spottable mistakes apparently. So having full triple box and papers with your Panerai reduces the risk. Sure your smarter-than-the-average-bear scammer could put a real box and papers with a fake watch but then you would have to add the proper serial number onto the fake to match the real papers? Possible but less likely. Nothings foolproof but every little helps. I'm no Panerai expert but have friends who love them and basing this on what THEY tell me. So yes I stand by the comment that a Panerai without box papers is much more of a lottery. Nothing else I can do to explain it- Don't know why your getting so hung up on it really. Oh well
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Oh well.
Oh well indeed
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Fwiw I agree with Haywood.
Papers don't guarantee an awful lot. Sure they're nice to have and add value to sought after vintage pieces but they're nothing to hang your hat on. Knowing what you're buying and knowing your sources is a better route to a good buy.
Agreed. World would be pretty boring if we all agreed on everything tho eh
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Testing with relevant questions the hypothesis of a poster ("no Panerai expert") which could needlessly lead others to make expensive mistakes does not mean that anyone is getting "hung up" on a matter.Really? I thought it's quite straightforward what I'm saying. Panerai fakes are very good so buying one is a lottery - with me so far? Good. Panerai fake papers and boxes have easily spottable mistakes apparently. So having full triple box and papers with your Panerai reduces the risk. Sure your smarter-than-the-average-bear scammer could put a real box and papers with a fake watch but then you would have to add the proper serial number onto the fake to match the real papers? Possible but less likely. Nothings foolproof but every little helps. I'm no Panerai expert but have friends who love them and basing this on what THEY tell me. So yes I stand by the comment that a Panerai without box papers is much more of a lottery. Nothing else I can do to explain it- Don't know why your getting so hung up on it really. Oh well
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Rather than standing by your comment "that a Panerai without box papers [sic] is much more of a lottery," you have in fact changed your original comment.
Previously you wrote : "without papers you really are entering replica lottery." That is clearly a phrase expressing exclusivity : it means that with papers one is not in a replica lottery. It is that position which I seek to dispel.
The matter is worth examining because millions of people worldwide hold the incorrect belief that papers prove the authenticity of a watch, a belief perpetuated thoughtlessly on the basis of slight or secondhand information and often by those too stubborn to retreat from their position when its flimsy basis has evaporated with the merest puff of scrutiny.
H
Last edited by Haywood_Milton; 26th May 2017 at 13:34.
You seem pretty hung up on it. Still do. And if errors can be spotted easily in fake papers then genuine papers help reduce risk. A sea of words from you won't alter that.
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Quick question for you then just out of curiosity. Your pawnbroking business- if I came to you with 2 watches (let's assume for arguments sake the brand is irrelevant). One has box and papers and one has none. Is there a £ enhancement to the one with? What would it be in % terms. Or not? This is more relevant to the OP in any event. Be interested in your answer
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We don't have to all agree on everything but participating in a debate requires ability to appreciate logic, facts and respect greater experience and knowledge . Unfortunately, you are failing on all counts.
Maintaining a consistent position also helps.
It is a long thread and a recurrent thread.
I would encourage you to read everything that HM has said on this AND other threads before accusing him of being 'hung up' on something. He is only 'hung up' on facts.
Last edited by RAJEN; 26th May 2017 at 13:47.
Totally agree. I don't really understand what else there is to say.
Particularly since this topic gets done regularly.
Who says errors can and will be spotted easily in fake papers? That's part of your narrative, not mine. My "sea of words" are not what drowned your creaking raft.
If the two watches were hypothetically the same and I was satisifed that the papers were genuine then I would attribute a higher value to the one with papers, delighted that a host of fools had imbued such value upon them. I might criticise the reasons why that value is attributed by many, but I must work to the prevailing market, not explain or justify it.
Now, why is the value I attribute important to our little moment of forum hand-baggery? My complaint was clearly focused on the claim that papers proved authenticity.
H
Not the one trying to be pedantic here. I'll back out of the discussion and leave it to others. Thanks
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Isn't this debate about what watchbuyers believe to be true? If they think a box and papers are a sign of authenticity, then of course they will pay more.
The fact that such a belief is irrational doesn't change anything. It's what buyers believe that counts, not reality. Thus endless explanations of the true state of affairs count for very little. Twas ever thus.
The value with or without was a more relevant (and separate) question in relation to the OP. As for my "creaking raft" pmsl- Come on. Bit dramatic dear?
Thanks for answering my separate question though. Answer appreciated. I genuinely was interested. For the record I too agree value added due to box papers etc might be illogical but as you said yourself the market has decided differently for whatever reason.
I will state I was wrong re Panerai comment. There now the thread can get back on track.
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Last edited by RustyBin5; 26th May 2017 at 14:00.
You chose to engage with the topic, but cannot suffer to see your position tested.
The charge of pedantry is a parting shot which reflects more on the sender than the target.
H
Way to go with the "backing out of the discussion and leaving it to others!"
I am sorry if my love of language and the figurative distresses.
lol not really . Pmsl is rarely a sign of distress unless you haven't brought a change of unders.....
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The brands that tend to appear with B&P will be the ones most likely bought by watch enthusiasts who know the resale value they provide and, as mentioned previously, who like to collect and keep 'the whole set.'
Rolex sells so many watches that those same watch enthusiasts make up a very small number of Rolex buyers; everyone else who buys one is likely much less bothered about the B&P and may discard them at some point during ownership without giving it a second thought. After all, they're just taking up space, aren't they? This distinction between the likes of us on here and the general public is paralleled in the sticker-gate/hang-tag-gate situation: the ADs expect customers not to want to have to remove the stickers themselves, so will usually peel them off as part of the sales process. It's only watch enthusiasts are likely to ask to keep them on, for whatever reason.
The irony of this situation is that we are in an age where box and papers seem to be more cherished/essential than in the past - probably because more people are 'collecting' things, rather than buying them as purely functional one off things - and yet we live in an age when such documentation can be more easily faked than ever before, thanks to domestic printing tech etc.
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Is this true of everyone or just WIS people, sure people on here know the importance of keeping everything together, but how many non WIS people buy an expensive watch and discard the bits and bobs, which afterall are excessive packaging.
There are two types of people generally, those who are organised and keep things and maintain a decent filing system so that if something is needed for a household applicable failure etc or insurance document they can put their hand on it and there are those who seem to live in a world of chaos and would struggle to produce a debit card receipt for something that they bought yesterday.
^^this but with caveat that if you are the type of person to keep the box papers hang tag etc then more likely to be the kind of fussy careful owner we all like when buying a used piece. Not all the time but it shows an OCD attention to detail for me
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Clearly not true of everyone, nothing is, but I've anecdotally noticed over the past decade or so, when selling any used items, more people seem to enquire about box and documents. Many want it when they're buying, then probably aren't concerned about keeping them, thinking the item will be worthless anyway by the time they're finished with it.
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Rusty
If a dodgy type wanted to sell you a Rolex, all he has to do is buy a good box (£150) and fake papers (£50) and then load the price by whatever.
Also you would buy it in good faith and because I trust you, I could buy if off you at a later date and we have both been conned as will the person who buys it off me. Yes the Rolex is genuine but we have all paid a lot of money for the accessories.
Just accept the fact that there are cartloads of fake papers of good quality out there, much more than you think.
If it's a vintage watch I'd rather be more interested in fresh RSC service papers. I know it's also not an insurance, but that'd give me some piece of mind.
It doesn't really matter to anyone other than the individual - you pay less without papers and more with, as stated the questions over doctored docs etc its difficult to argue
Personally I will only buy a watch with ''full set' bought an omega once which was perfect but the warranty card was missing only - went straight back.
There is a poster after poster saying I wouldn't buy without box/papers/full set.
Which is fine and explains why generally a 'full set' fetches a higher price.
It is also true that presence of box/papers is probably not the single biggest reassurance of the legitimacy of the watch as this can be faked and faked easily and well. The source of purchase is more important.
Personally, the only reason I may give importance to box/papers is because of resale value. People continue to put great faith in them and their value, even if it might be unwarranted.
It's not just watches. People ask about main dealer service histories on cars. It demonstrates something that people value. Con men know this and will therefore happily put time and effort into duplicating the papers and accessories.
Even I have bought an authentic Longines box in the past for a vintage Longines that I own, not to try to con anybody but for the sake of a more complete object. As I said in a previous post, it's about being a collector. It's in no way unique to watch collections, collectors of anything are the same. If anybody doubts this is about collecting then look at the number of people who mention they have a safe.
I wonder how many here are carrying around a fake watch unknowingly that they bought with confidence because it came with box and papers?
BTW, analogy with cars is wrong on multiple grounds.
What about an expensive watch with full box and papers bought outside the EU and smuggled in without duties or taxes being paid then sold on privately. Yes, your watch is genuine, but what other future problems do you face?
I accept this. All of it. Sad world but there we go.
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There is one indisputable reason to want to keep your box and papers. It makes any future resale value higher (rightly or wrongly). Ofc the counterpoint to this is that it's cost neutral due to paying more for one with box and papers in the first place. However for a brand new watch the premium in the used market for box/papers should mean more will keep them rather than toss them?
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As mentioned previously, the vast majority of buyers are just buying a watch and don't really have any concept of future values. They are just as likely to throw the box and papers away as they ever were.
Granted, there are probably more collectors these days so there are likely to be more "full sets" in the future which, ironically, will probably make the premium for a full set lower than seen today.
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