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Thread: Watch running too fast when worn

  1. #1
    Craftsman
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    Watch running too fast when worn

    A friend of mine purchased a mechanical Seiko a few months back on my advice. He likes the watch but after a while he noticed the watch was running too fast (few minutes per day). Since he holds me accountable for all the woes of the watch he asked me what to do. I figured it might be magnetised, but I've checked that. I decided to put the watch on a winder for a while but it was running nicely and keeping decent time.
    My friend wore it again the other day and behold, it again gains time again.
    I figure it might either be the mainspring or balance, the only time I've encountered this before with a watch the dealer just replaced the whole movement to be done with it and shipped back to me. Since this watch came from abroad the costs of shipping it to the seller will likely not be worth it, so I want to see if I can fix this myself or perhaps employ a local watchmaker.

    Any ideas?

  2. #2
    Master Cirrus's Avatar
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    I would guess the balance... does it keep time consistently in all orientations? At all temperatures?

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cirrus View Post
    I would guess the balance... does it keep time consistently in all orientations? At all temperatures?
    Temperatures has been normal, anywhere from 10 degrees to about 22. That didn't phase it in the watchwinder.
    I will do some testing with the orientations. I'll report back.

    Thank you for taking the time to reply & help!

  4. #4
    Master Cirrus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kozzy View Post
    Temperatures has been normal, anywhere from 10 degrees to about 22. That didn't phase it in the watchwinder.
    I will do some testing with the orientations. I'll report back.

    Thank you for taking the time to reply & help!
    I am good at replying... not sure how much help I will be though ;)

  5. #5
    Master Thewatchbloke's Avatar
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    Another vote for a dodgy balance here. Worn staff or jewels or a damaged hairspring. The balance is the component that regulates the unwinding of the mainspring so it's the best place to start.

  6. #6
    Master igorRIJEKA's Avatar
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    I would also say that the balance has some problems (balance hairspring).

  7. #7
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    Could you post some close-up pictures from the balance. (Side + top, watch not running..)?

  8. #8
    Master seffrican's Avatar
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    Is this a 7s26 movement? If so, it could be the famous running-fast-because-hairspring-is-hung-up syndrome.

    The cure is to slap it fairly hard in the correct manner. Seriously.

    http://forums.watchuseek.com/f21/wha...st-416572.html

  9. #9
    Master igorRIJEKA's Avatar
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    ...or the spring is hitting on itself when it ticks....

  10. #10
    Master seffrican's Avatar
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    The key word in the OP is "Seiko". All the other possibilities are real considerations, but the cause of Seiko issues are 99% caused by the 7s26 and its close relatives, and the cause in 99% of those cases is the hairspring being hooked on the regulator pins.

    In that case, the cure is as I posted. Tools required are a watch in one hand and the palm of the other hand. Takes a single minute to do, and a few hours to verify, all free of charge.

  11. #11
    Grand Master
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    I`m assuming from the OP's comments that the problem only applies when the watch is worn; putting it on a watch timer would help verify his, but working on the assumption that' it's fine when not being worn we can discount balance problems.

    Likely cause of this is a condition known as 'knocking the banking. Basically, the amplitude becomes too high and the balance moves too far.

    The root cause is a problem with the mainspring. When fully wound it should slip inside the barrel; if it doesn`t, the action of the rotor is imparting drive to the barrel as the spring becomes bound, thus putting too much torque through the watch and causing the excessive amplitude. As soon as the watch is put down and not moved, the condition will right itself after a few minutes as the watch becomes 'fully wound' rather than 'overwound'.

    I had this happen to me on an Orient Star recently; stripping the barrel and relubricating fixed it.....it also taught me not to assume a spring/barrel should be OK on a 3 year old watch and I now strip every barrel down if it's to be reused.

    Watches can be fiendish beasts!

    Paul
    Last edited by walkerwek1958; 28th May 2013 at 17:59.

  12. #12
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    I agree with Walkerwek below. I have come across this problem with several Seiko and other Japanese mechanical autos.
    The mainspring barrel inside edge is also not always smoothly turned.
    The best remedy is to remove the mainspring, clean it and the barrel thoroughly, then, before replacing the mainspring, coat the inner edge and base of the barrel with light grease. Then replace the mainspring and coat the top of it with grease.
    Many watch repairers fail to remove the mainsprings, especially on autos, with the result that the area which takes most friction, ie the edge or outer coil of the mainspring, never gets fresh lubrication. So naturally, without grease, the outer coil will cling to the edge of the barrel rather than slip round as it should when the auto weight winds it fully. This problem can sometimes even break the auto winding gear wheels.
    This problem is the equivalent to winding a non auto mechanical watch fully, then turning the winder more, until the balance is forced to oscillate beyond it's maximum amplitude of around 320 degrees to near 355 ! The balance roller jewel will then hit against one side of the lever fork and bounce back in the opposite direction hitting the other side of the lever fork and therefore run extremely fast, before perhaps breaking the roller jewel which stops the watch from revolving more than 360 degrees.

    Brendan.

  13. #13
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    good to know that a simple 'tap' or 'slap' can fix it! i would have just brought it to a watchmaker for repair

  14. #14
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    Thanks Seffrican, your "give it a slap" tip worked a treat on my crazy fast Seiko 5. You saved me a trip to the watch repairer. It just took 3 taps on the edge opposite the crown and 3 flat on the back. Second hand visibly slowed and its been running fine since. Great tip, thank you.

    Paul.

  15. #15
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    You can't beat technology. "Give it a whack!"
    Mike

  16. #16
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    I`ve never heard of this happening before, with the hairspring getting caught up. I`ve seen problems with hairspring coils sticking together due to contamination, but this one's news to me!

    However, on the premise that you learn something every week in this game, I shall make a mental note of it. Thankfully for the OP my 'mainspring is the root of the problem' hypothesis proved wrong ......the watch would've needed a fair amount of stripping down to get the spring barrel out.

    Paul

  17. #17
    Master Thewatchbloke's Avatar
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    It wasn't the OP's watch with the caught up hairspring Paul so you could still be right.

  18. #18
    Grand Master Der Amf's Avatar
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    I found this thread while doing a Google search.

    I received a vintage Seiko yesterday and found it to have this problem - it was gaining a second every minute. It also occasionally stopped when resting face up.

    I've already sent it back to the dealer, so am asking purely out of curiosity - could these two problem both be caused by a tangled wotsit spring?

    Forgot to add - it's a 5206 movement. The modern 4S movements have their roots in the 52xx family, though I think their were significant alternations made to the 52xx after the 5206, which was one of the earliest.
    Last edited by Der Amf; 17th November 2016 at 12:13.

  19. #19
    Master Thewatchbloke's Avatar
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    Theoretically it could but I doubt it, I've never seen a tangled hairspring on a calibre 52xx, it's more likely to be a contaminated or deformed (bent) one.

  20. #20
    Grand Master
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    If it's stopping, it's got a problem, and unlike grazed knees they don't get better. I've got zero sympathy for dealers who send watches out in less than tip-top condition, I think you're right to send it back.

    Paul

  21. #21
    Grand Master Der Amf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by walkerwek1958 View Post
    If it's stopping, it's got a problem, and unlike grazed knees they don't get better. I've got zero sympathy for dealers who send watches out in less than tip-top condition, I think you're right to send it back.

    Paul
    Don't worry, we don't need to get angry about this dealer, he's mortified and doing his level best to make things good as fast as possible. (eg offered not repair and refund, but also a replacement) This is my fourth purchase from him, and in each instance I've been extremely pleased with the condition, with the exception of this one issue; he's scrupulously honest in assessing his wares and prices sensibly. The package arrived with a severe dent, which makes me wonder if it got damaged in transit. Accidents happen, I'm not going to peer at the issue to try to find an excuse for getting irate; I was just trying to use the experience as an opportunity for learning for about movements and what can go wrong with them. By the bye, the dealer's English is no way good enough for me to be able to quiz him on what has gone wrong with the watch, so what has happened to this specific movement will forever remain a mystery.

  22. #22
    Grand Master
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    The problem could have been caused in transit, and there's very little anyone can do to prevent this happening occasionally. I had it happen recently on an Omega SMP I`d worked on; the watch was running perfectly when it left me but was running way too fast when it arrived back with the owner. The hairspring had become coilbound , and the problem was remedied by simply taking the balance cock out and letting the balance hang, thus allowing the hairspring to right itself. Put it back and the watch was running perfectly again.

    No amount of packaging and padding can totally prevent this in my opinion; if the watch is dropped from enough height the sudden deceleration when it lands is enough to cause the hairspring to 'bounce' and potentially get caught up. I now use extra packing material when posting watches but I`m not convinced it's foolproof.

    Paul

  23. #23
    Grand Master Der Amf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thewatchbloke View Post
    Theoretically it could but I doubt it, I've never seen a tangled hairspring on a calibre 52xx, it's more likely to be a contaminated or deformed (bent) one.
    When I got the watch back from the dealer it was keeping good time but since then it's being running faster and faster, and I've now had to return it to him (for good this time) I only wore it twenty times, and although it's no longer my concern, I'm curious what might have been going on. Any ideas? It was gaining 5 minutes / 24 hours.

    I'm gutted because the dial was incredible:


  24. #24
    Master Thewatchbloke's Avatar
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    What was the power reserve like?

  25. #25
    Grand Master Der Amf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thewatchbloke View Post
    What was the power reserve like?
    Despite the movement being handwindable, in reality the watch wasn't, because the crown was sunk into the case, so I was never sure how wound I had managed to get it, let alone what the PR was.

    When it started running fast, I wondered if it was connected with that (though I can't recall what my logic was for that) For example, the last day I wore it, it gained a minute within a couple of hours.

    I did spend a few minutes thinking about not returning the watch and having it repaired by someone such as yourself at my own expense, but I got nervous about the movement turning into a money pit, relative to the value of the watch. There are other beautiful dials in this world, after all.

    Edit: Another thing....when using the quick set day, it clicked around very easily; the quick set date, though, would only be that free and easy for the first change - after that it would be feel heavier (yes I was careful not to change date in the forbidden hours)

    Back to datefree manuals for me, I think... ;)
    Last edited by Der Amf; 13th June 2017 at 14:11.

  26. #26
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    I'd be very carefully checking the balance spring. My money (albeit not more than a fiver) would be on the balance spring having some oil on it and clinging to itself on certain situations. Or maybe it's bent and doing the same thing. The fact it stops too suggests it's not happy in that area.

    Have you tried demagnetising it? Again that will cause a couple of coils to cling to each other and have the effect of speeding it up.

  27. #27
    Master Thewatchbloke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Der Amf View Post
    Despite the movement being handwindable, in reality the watch wasn't, because the crown was sunk into the case, so I was never sure how wound I had managed to get it, let alone what the PR was.

    When it started running fast, I wondered if it was connected with that (though I can't recall what my logic was for that) For example, the last day I wore it, it gained a minute within a couple of hours.

    I did spend a few minutes thinking about not returning the watch and having it repaired by someone such as yourself at my own expense, but I got nervous about the movement turning into a money pit, relative to the value of the watch. There are other beautiful dials in this world, after all.

    Edit: Another thing....when using the quick set day, it clicked around very easily; the quick set date, though, would only be that free and easy for the first change - after that it would be feel heavier (yes I was careful not to change date in the forbidden hours)

    Back to datefree manuals for me, I think... ;)
    The reason I ask is because I finished servicing a 5246 a couple of weeks ago with the same issue, gaining time, difficult to set date and poor time reserve. The movement needing servicing and once done the timekeeping was great, however the calibre 52xx despite being what Seiko call high beat (28800bph) isn't particularly isochronous. The watch I serviced (a 5246 King Seiko chronometer grade) kept cracking time after servicing but after two days on the final test machine it started to gain, as the rate gained the amplitude dropped. This was solely due to the autowind train being worn out, an achilles heel of the caliber 52xx. The autowind is overly complicated compared to other Seiko calibres of the day. With the rotor gear driving two transmission wheels, a differential (reverser), two reduction wheels then finally the ratchet wheel there's a lot of scope for wear. I had to replace the differential, the first and second reduction wheels, the mainspring, barrel and arbor and the rotor/bearing assembly with NOS parts which took me over 4 months to find! Once done the winding was smooth as was the date change (the date change position doesn't disengage the manual wind which explains the difficulty with setting the date) and the power reserve was a phenomenal 52 hours after 4 days on final test, the rate was a steady +2spd. They are great accurate movements when in good condition but once the wear sets into the autowind (which it will do because of the design and of course their age now) they suffer, because the parts are particular to the 5206 and 5246 (they fit no other calibre) and the fact it's a common complaint NOS parts are ridiculously difficult to source.

    Here's a NOS barrel and mainspring and the second reduction wheel.



    Here's the second reduction wheel next to the old one, you can see the wear at the teeth and the enormous wear to the centre (which fell apart on removal), it's visibly bigger than the NOS one.



    To complicate matters the second reduction wheel is riveted to the mainplate, the new one's in place here.



    This is the first reduction wheel, again you can see the wear on the teeth.


  28. #28
    Grand Master Der Amf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thewatchbloke View Post
    The reason I ask is because I finished servicing a 5246 a couple of weeks ago with the same issue, gaining time, difficult to set date and poor time reserve. The movement needing servicing and once done the timekeeping was great, however the calibre 52xx despite being what Seiko call high beat (28800bph) isn't particularly isochronous. The watch I serviced (a 5246 King Seiko chronometer grade) kept cracking time after servicing but after two days on the final test machine it started to gain, as the rate gained the amplitude dropped. This was solely due to the autowind train being worn out, an achilles heel of the caliber 52xx. The autowind is overly complicated compared to other Seiko calibres of the day. With the rotor gear driving two transmission wheels, a differential (reverser), two reduction wheels then finally the ratchet wheel there's a lot of scope for wear. I had to replace the differential, the first and second reduction wheels, the mainspring, barrel and arbor and the rotor/bearing assembly with NOS parts which took me over 4 months to find! Once done the winding was smooth as was the date change (the date change position doesn't disengage the manual wind which explains the difficulty with setting the date) and the power reserve was a phenomenal 52 hours after 4 days on final test, the rate was a steady +2spd. They are great accurate movements when in good condition but once the wear sets into the autowind (which it will do because of the design and of course their age now) they suffer, because the parts are particular to the 5206 and 5246 (they fit no other calibre) and the fact it's a common complaint NOS parts are ridiculously difficult to source.
    What a fantastically thorough reply, thank you very much. Its all on the boundaries of my knowledge, but I think I've understood enough :)

    For a King Seiko - whose prices seem to be drifting higher and higher at the moment - this kind of effort sounds worthwhile. For my modest little LordMatic, not worth much despite its excellent condition, if this much work had been needed, and this many parts had been needed, financially it would have been foolish. After all, loving a dial isn't the same as loving the whole watch and a long way short of wanting a watch salvaged for sentimental reasons.

    So I was right to return it to the seller; with hindsight I should have probably taken the refund the first time round, given.

    Are there other Seiko movements from this era which are also to be approached with caution? I've always fancied a GS 5722-9991 - manual, and not high-beat. Does that have a better reputation in terms of reliability and repairability?

  29. #29
    Master Thewatchbloke's Avatar
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    Most other Seikos of the period are pretty bulletproof but they are all around 40 to over 50 years of age now. The handwinding GS and KS's of the period are fantastic movements. The 5 series are the ones that seem to have the most issues, from the autowind of the 52xx's above to the overly complicated keyless work and fragile quickset issues of the calibre 56xx's. The biggest issue these days is 40 to 50 years of wear on the escapement side of things, balance staffs, escape wheels, pallets and the like. As ever with vintage Seiko it's finding the new parts that causes the biggest problems for me!

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