Would you buy a diesel car?

[Xantiagib]

Hybrid is another option? Recently bought a used Lexus and vhappy. I get 50+ mpg on long distances, 45 with mixed driving ( not using eco mode) Toyota / Lexus have introduced "hybrid care" which as part of a service extends the warranty on the hybrid drive components by 15k km or 1 year, up to a max of 10 years.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

+1 for hybrid/petrol - my Toyota gives me 60mpg-80mpg on short runs and on long motorway drives about 50-55mpg - the range is amazing on what is a smallish fuel tank I managed 800+ kms on one tank once
(4 persons and luggage)

now diesel hybrids must be out of this world for mpg but they are suited to larger heavier cars
PHEV is the way to go though - the mitsubishi is very nice and amazing to hear a silent 4x4 pootling about town

[Padders]

I am not convinced hybrids make any sense at all. They are a spork or Betamax video in some respects, a stepping stone to full electric with all the expensive heavy battery and motor kit to go wrong but not yet enough autonomous electric power and range to prevent pollution and noise in towns. I know in the example earlier it was stated that Lexus warranty their kit for ages, this is clearly a good thing, but I wouldn't want the bills to fix a Prius or Insight or similar 5 years down the line. I have seen plenty of examples suggesting that many hybrid solutions use more fuel and certainly more resources than an efficient and much lighter diesel or even petrol solution

[Alansmithee]

I see Volvo are getting out of Diesel - this generation is going to be the last they develop. Going to concentrate on Hybrid and electric instead.

[Harry Smith]

I am not convinced hybrids make any sense at all. They are a spork or Betamax video in some respects, a stepping stone to full electric with all the expensive heavy battery and motor kit to go wrong but not yet enough autonomous electric power and range to prevent pollution and noise in towns. I know in the example earlier it was stated that Lexus warranty their kit for ages, this is clearly a good thing, but I wouldn't want the bills to fix a Prius or Insight or similar 5 years down the line. I have seen plenty of examples suggesting that many hybrid solutions use more fuel and certainly more resources than an efficient and much lighter diesel or even petrol solution

I have been wondering about the Vauxhall Ampera which is purely electric driven but uses a small engine to recharge. Anyone got any experience of these?

[Tokyo Tokei]

[...] does that mean taxis, buses, delivery lorries, ambulances, generators, fork trucks etc etc are going to be banned from cities?

For what it's worth: there are no diesel cars in Japan. Not sure about lorries, but taxis and buses are petrol, hybrid or run on LPG.

[hilly10]

Just ordered a new Golf 1.6 GT TDI.So yes I would.

The problem with electric is always a worry you are going to run out of charge. Now and the immediate future you are always tied down to finding the darn quick charge point, then you pull into a service station and low and behold you are in a queue 2hr wait. No thanks I will stick to me heavy oil thanks

[swanbourne]

I know that diesel is currently being portrayed as the work of the devil but the government don't seem to have thought this through. The millions of diesel commercial vehicles currently running on a 2 - 2.5 litre diesel and returning 30 mpg will need to have a 3 litre petrol engine to maintain power and that will return 15 - 20 mpg. I don't see any reduction in emissions there, only more fuel duty in the bank.

Eddie

[Omegamanic]

For what it's worth: there are no diesel cars in Japan. Not sure about lorries, but taxis and buses are petrol, hybrid or run on LPG.

Im sure there are diesel cars in Japan? Just more restrictive on emissions.

"
At BMW, 80 percent of vehicles sold in Europe in 2014 ran on diesel, while diesel represented 38 percent of global sales and 30 percent in Japan."

[Indio]

I switched from a diesel BMW x5 to an all electric Nissan Leaf recently. The leaf is much smoother, quieter and relaxed to drive. The x5 feels like a tractor by comparison. The leaf is perfect for sub 110 mile journeys. That said, I am mulling over buying another car for longer journeys. perhaps a diesel but not an SUV because they are generally relatively thirsty on longer trips.

[Tokyo Tokei]

Im sure there are diesel cars in Japan? Just more restrictive on emissions.

You are right and I should have written "almost no...".

Market share of diesel sales is about 0.4% according to Bloomberg (report dated 2012) and total share of just over 1% (according to Forbes). There is so little interest in diesel here, I can never recall seeing a diesel car on the road in Tokyo.

Original comment was mainly to counter the perception that diesel power is somehow a necessity for cities. The world's biggest city seems to largely do without.

[Deckard81]

I switched from a diesel BMW x5 to an all electric Nissan Leaf recently. The leaf is much smoother, quieter and relaxed to drive. The x5 feels like a tractor by comparison. The leaf is perfect for sub 110 mile journeys. That said, I am mulling over buying another car for longer journeys. perhaps a diesel but not an SUV because they are generally relatively thirsty on longer trips.

I've had my Leaf for just over a month now and I love it. It was meant to replace my wife's corsa but that is pretty much the only car we both use. My diesel 3008 feels like a vintage car without the charm and the looks in comparison.
Electric is the way to go.

[Indio]

With an electric car, I don't much miss the 80-100 quid trips to the petrol station either. We don't do many long journeys, but hired a diesel car for a couple of days last week for a much longer journey. Could have used petrol station charging points, but on balance couldn't be bothered.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Vampire]

For the Leaf owners, do you think it'd be a workable option for a 62 mile round trip commute, mostly country A/B roads and a bit of dual carriageway? I know it should be fine for either a 24KW or 30KW model, but what about when you're using aircon/heating etc - does that sound too close to range anxiety limits?

I can't charge it at work by the way, so would strictly be overnight at home.

[Dave+63]

I have been wondering about the Vauxhall Ampera which is purely electric driven but uses a small engine to recharge. Anyone got any experience of these?

The Ampera is considered by many to be the best of its breed and so far, the only Vauxhall I'd consider buying.

It's just a shame that the new model and equivalent BEV aren't being brought in to the UK.

[Dave+63]

For the Leaf owners, do you think it'd be a workable option for a 62 mile round trip commute, mostly country A/B roads and a bit of dual carriageway? I know it should be fine for either a 24KW or 30KW model, but what about when you're using aircon/heating etc - does that sound too close to range anxiety limits?

I can't charge it at work by the way, so would strictly be overnight at home.

A 30kwhr Leaf would do those distances easily in all weathers as would a Zoe or Ioniq.

You'd do the distance in a 24kwhr model but may need to wear a coat in winter. I've never got less than 65 miles in my Env200 van whilst fully loaded weight wise and that's hit the 24kwhr battery. I don't usually use the aircon or heater except in an emergency but do use the heated seats and steering wheel.

[#Craig]

We have a city car and a diesel 4x4. The future of diesel prices worries me as I can see it going through the roof but we tow quite a lot. Regardless of how much petrol engines come on they can't match the torque of diesel meaning your changing gear all the time and revving it to death when towing.

[davechester]

I dont think I would pay my money for a diesel - I'd be too worried about depreciation. I'd most likely go petrol unless electric fitted my requirements perfectly.

[johnbaz]

I just bought a three year old Seat Altea with the 1.6 Diesel engine, Road tax is £30 a year at the moment, The car was part of the emmissions scandal, It was taken to seat and something was rectified to make the car pollute less (No idea what though!)

It's an Altea SE Copa CR TDi Ecomotive, Had to look in the registration paper for that as it's a bit of a mouthfull!!

9,000 miles ago the chaps wife filled up with petrol! It was repaired at a cost of £3,500 by an insurance they had, Must say, Whatever they did to it, It runs beautifully!

John

[Irish boy]

I wouldn't rule out diesel but i'd want some sort of lease on it where depreciation was limited and a minimum of 25k miles per year.

Petrols have improved economy over the years and are far better for short runs, both warming up quicker and having no particle filters/dpf's to give bother when they don't get their proper cycles.

I had a 48 hour test drive in a leaf but it wouldn't be for me....yet. When range gets to 150 miles I'll reconsider.

Don't discount lpg also, we run couple of lpg vehicles in work and they are very cost effective and so far have given no bother.

[Kiki Picasso]

Recently sold my defender due to being fed up with it getting targeted by thieves. Replaced it three days ago with a Toyota hilux 3.0 invincible. Like my defender it Wont see a days work, purely a leisure vehicle. Won't be getting rid of a diesel until I'm forced to

[Deckard81]

For the Leaf owners, do you think it'd be a workable option for a 62 mile round trip commute, mostly country A/B roads and a bit of dual carriageway? I know it should be fine for either a 24KW or 30KW model, but what about when you're using aircon/heating etc - does that sound too close to range anxiety limits?

I can't charge it at work by the way, so would strictly be overnight at home.

I have a 30kw and my daily commute is 74 miles. 52m A road + 10m outer London at 50mph + central London for the rest. If I drive stupidly I get back home with 20% but once I made it with 38%. 62 miles round trip is nearly impossible not to reach, you would have to drive @ 99mph the whole way with the aircon on.
If you have off street parking go for it and you won't regret it.
Nissan also offers a "normal" car for 2 weeks a year if you need it.

Not sure if you can tell but I love my Leaf :-)

[berin]

I'd buy whatever was most suitable, which probably wouldn't be a diesel anyway
As the op pointed out though, when the various gumments in the eu were worried about the then cause de jour of global warming they encouraged everyone to buy diesels with various tax incentives and so the choice of petrol models is now limited.

But I don't see anything wrong with cheap used one, or one on a cheap lease, any city centre bans won't be in force till the 2020's, except maybe London. The vehicle excise duty regime just changed, so that won't change again for a bit either.
And there's 32m cars on our roads, at least half and probably more of those diesel. That's a lot of voters to piss off!

For the person that mentioned lack of diesels in Tokyo, spot on, buts that because people were never incentivised to buy them , plus the fact that everyone chucks their car away in Japan after 3 years (mot regs too hard and expensive) plus the longevity of a diesel doesn't matter.

So to the op, buy whatever suits your pocket and lifestyle, rather then worry about what makes it go!



Sent from my iPad using TZ-UK mobile app

[sestrel]

Interesting that, how does heavy transport work in Japan: are their major roads clogged with big articulated trucks like ours?

[Xantiagib]

........
I can't charge it at work by the way, so would strictly be overnight at home.

Can't charge - won't charge -


at the end of the day that is what the range extender is on a Bmw all electric does....

[Lazydonkey]

I dont think I would pay my money for a diesel - I'd be too worried about depreciation. I'd most likely go petrol unless electric fitted my requirements perfectly.

Assuming you are buying something reasonably new then i can't see any government action having much, if any, impact on depreciation.

Look at what has happened with the recent road tax duties - they only impact new car purchase and everyone who bought under the previous regime is unaffected. Even then if you were considering a low emission petrol or diesel as it was zero / negligible road tax i can't see many being put off by a rise to £140.....therefore these vehicles's depreciation rate is unaffected.

To check the effect or otherwise you just have at look at the price difference between a 2005 Nissan 350z vs a 2006 model. You won't see a huge price difference and yet one costs £305 to tax and the later one and one costs £535 as the government changed the way VED was calculated. It might, just might have a tiny bearing on your purchase if you can't decide between two otherwise identical cars but otherwise it just becomes a rounding error. When buying new i'm sure it wasn't a concern for the owners of a £30k two seaters but you would expect to see more of an effect when they drop to £4k and become weekend toys. I'm sure there are other case studies (iirc the fiat 500 went from "high" emissions to £30 per year during it's model run) but i care less about those cars to pay too much attention!

I'm 42 years old, my first word was car and the only time i can remember a car or group of cars suffering almost overnight, catastrophic depreciation was when a car maker went bust (Saab 9-3's were hard to shift for a while, likewise brand new Lotus Evoras) or during the oil crisis of the 70s. Neither of them were government sponsored and both recovered.

As a final thought - if you're seriously worried about loosing money then you'd be an idiot to buy a brand new car regardless of fuel. Not saying you're an idiot for doing it, just saying it makes very little sense when viewed purely from a financial point of view. If you do the miles and / or you like the car buy a diesel. If not then don't.

Just my 2p
(Full disclosure : I am a city dwelling owner of hulking diesel 4x4 and a plastic sportscar from a Norfolk car manufacturer who is only ever 2 mins from going bankrupt again)

[PJdB]

I wouldn't buy a diesel car in this lifetime.

Go LPG. Sounds, drives and responds like petrol, despite it being a very clean burning fuel.

I get the £££ equivalent of 50mpg in my 2 tonne 4.3 V8

[sestrel]

I'd be very pleased to get LPG, however, from the little I know, they cost a lot to convert a car properly and used one's dont are few and far between (hence command a high price). Also, afaik, potential buyer should have the car assessed professionally to ensure it is up to standard and safe. Correct if I'm wrong.

[johnthemull]

Neither Petrol or Diesel has a future according to this article

https://www.rte.ie/lifestyle/motors/...-only-8-years/

[ralphy]

No, just no.

Nothing to do with the government, Euro-whatever, costs per mile/service/tax or anything else: I just don't like diesel cars or the fuel.

YMMV ;-)

R

[reggie747]

No, just no.

Nothing to do with the government, Euro-whatever, costs per mile/service/tax or anything else: I just don't like diesel cars or the fuel.

YMMV ;-)

R

Have you had a bad experience ralphy I wonder ?

[ralphy]

Have you had a bad experience ralphy I wonder ?

Every time I've (reluctantly) got in one it's been a bad experience.

R

[Xantiagib]

I am not convinced hybrids make any sense at all. They are a spork or Betamax video in some respects, a stepping stone to full electric with all the expensive heavy battery and motor kit to go wrong but not yet enough autonomous electric power and range to prevent pollution and noise in towns. I know in the example earlier it was stated that Lexus warranty their kit for ages, this is clearly a good thing, but I wouldn't want the bills to fix a Prius or Insight or similar 5 years down the line. I have seen plenty of examples suggesting that many hybrid solutions use more fuel and certainly more resources than an efficient and much lighter diesel or even petrol solution

"oh yes like TV or the internet - they will never catch on"

Considering Toyota brought the Prius hybrid out in 1997 - its lasted longer than betamax for sure -

and worrying about 5 years down the line - see http://blog.toyota.co.uk/bob-old-and...00-mile-hybrid

'in 435,000 miles the car has needed nothing more than routine servicing and consumables like oil, wipers and tyres.
“Reliability-wise, it has yet to fail in any circumstances,” says Bob. “The only time I had an RAC guy out was when I got a puncture!”'

[Padders]

"oh yes like TV or the internet - they will never catch on"

Considering Toyota brought the Prius hybrid out in 1997 - its lasted longer than betamax for sure -

and worrying about 5 years down the line - see http://blog.toyota.co.uk/bob-old-and...00-mile-hybrid

'in 435,000 miles the car has needed nothing more than routine servicing and consumables like oil, wipers and tyres.
“Reliability-wise, it has yet to fail in any circumstances,” says Bob. “The only time I had an RAC guy out was when I got a puncture!”'

Who said anything about the internet or TV, I think you are putting forward fallacious arguments and your use of quotes is interesting since no one said that here but if you must insist I will counter with the fact that J Logie Bairds mechanical TV system isn't exactly thriving, what with transmission ending in 1939. Are you suggesting that the Prius is the be all and end all of automotive progress? A Golf diesel would run rings round it (literally) in terms of whole of life energy expended and outright performance, as I say, hybrids are a dead end stepping stone to full electric IMO.

[berin]

"oh yes like TV or the internet - they will never catch on"

Considering Toyota brought the Prius hybrid out in 1997 - its lasted longer than betamax for sure -

and worrying about 5 years down the line - see http://blog.toyota.co.uk/bob-old-and...00-mile-hybrid

'in 435,000 miles the car has needed nothing more than routine servicing and consumables like oil, wipers and tyres.
“Reliability-wise, it has yet to fail in any circumstances,” says Bob. “The only time I had an RAC guy out was when I got a puncture!”'

Yes, they've really caught on. Out of 32m cars in the UK there have been 104,000 electric cars registered since 1997, and in 2016 alone there were 2.7m new cars sold. Doesn't say how many electrics are still running, but assuming it's all of them I make that .3% of the total. So if the take up carries on at the same rate we'll all be in electric cars in about 6000 years.

[vagabond]

How many hybrid cars are bring sold as a proportion of new car sales? I'm sure that will be much higher than 0.3%

[Padders]

How many hybrid cars are bring sold as a proportion of new car sales? I'm sure that will be much higher than 0.3%

According to the SMMT, for the year to date in 2017, hybrid sales are running at around 2.5% of total car sales, full electric at around 1.5%. Neither is exactly reaching critical mass, perhaps that will change when the cheaper Tesla eventually arrives.

Interestingly in April, the most recent month with full figures, diesel still featured in 45% of vehicles sold so it hasn't exactly fallen on its backside just yet, though there is bound to be a reduction in diesel sales going forward.

[Tooks]

I run a Golf GTE at the moment, and for my use it's turning out very well indeed.

My commute, such as it is, amounts to 14 miles each way over mostly B roads. At the moment in the warmer weather, and without charging at work, I can cover 25 of the 28 miles on all electric. Even over winter in sub zero temps, I was managing 18-19 miles.

I do a 155 mile trip a couple of times a month, and in hybrid auto mode cover approx 50-60 of those in electric. The car is very good at generating electricity on downhills or using surplus power when the engine is running to keep the battery topped up. Overall MPG for that trip is usually in the 60+ range.

It also has a GTE mode where the engine and electric motor work in tandem to produce 200bhp which makes for a swift car despite its weight. The electric motor is always 'torque filling' so it never feels underpowered.

I agree it's a stepping stone until we all drive something else (although I did get the Golf after owning a BMW i3) but it's a good car for the here and now. The batteries are warrantied for 8 years, on top of the usual 3 years for the rest of the car, and I'll probably just extend the warranty whilst I own the car anyway.

For me, it's a car that can tickle through a city/urban environment without locally polluting, but is a quick and enjoyable car to drive on longer journeys or when you fancy a bit of fun.

[Grandiloquence]

I have been considering buying a Honda CR-Z. It looks good and drives well and the MPG appears to be decent. What puts me off is when the IMA battery dies it could cost around £3000 to replace.

[Dave+63]

I have been considering buying a Honda CR-Z. It looks good and drives well and the MPG appears to be decent. What puts me off is when the IMA battery dies it could cost around £3000 to replace.

How much will it cost to replace the engine when that dies?

[Padders]

I run a Golf GTE at the moment, and for my use it's turning out very well indeed.

My commute, such as it is, amounts to 14 miles each way over mostly B roads. At the moment in the warmer weather, and without charging at work, I can cover 25 of the 28 miles on all electric. Even over winter in sub zero temps, I was managing 18-19 miles.

I do a 155 mile trip a couple of times a month, and in hybrid auto mode cover approx 50-60 of those in electric. The car is very good at generating electricity on downhills or using surplus power when the engine is running to keep the battery topped up. Overall MPG for that trip is usually in the 60+ range.

It also has a GTE mode where the engine and electric motor work in tandem to produce 200bhp which makes for a swift car despite its weight. The electric motor is always 'torque filling' so it never feels underpowered.

I agree it's a stepping stone until we all drive something else (although I did get the Golf after owning a BMW i3) but it's a good car for the here and now. The batteries are warrantied for 8 years, on top of the usual 3 years for the rest of the car, and I'll probably just extend the warranty whilst I own the car anyway.

For me, it's a car that can tickle through a city/urban environment without locally polluting, but is a quick and enjoyable car to drive on longer journeys or when you fancy a bit of fun.

Interesting post, what were you thoughts on the full electric i3? Was it the range limitation which made you change it or something else?

[sestrel]

How much will it cost to replace the engine when that dies?

what, in 40 years time? 🤤

[Enoch]

I know that diesel is currently being portrayed as the work of the devil but the government don't seem to have thought this through. The millions of diesel commercial vehicles currently running on a 2 - 2.5 litre diesel and returning 30 mpg will need to have a 3 litre petrol engine to maintain power and that will return 15 - 20 mpg. I don't see any reduction in emissions there, only more fuel duty in the bank.

Eddie

Your last sentence suggests they have thought it through😉

[Tooks]

Interesting post, what were you thoughts on the full electric i3? Was it the range limitation which made you change it or something else?

I actually owned the REX version of the i3, the 18.8kwh version, which had a circa 65-70 mile electric range, and then as far as you like using the 7ltr petrol tank and onboard REX, as long as you didn't mind frequent fuel stops.

I changed it for two reasons really, first being I never quite got used to the looks. It had ferocious LOL acceleration to about 45mph, and would hold motorway speeds effortlessly, but the twisty bits were less fun and it was easily unsettled on broken roads.

The second reason was that on the longer trips that I do now in the Golf, the figures weren't that different. 65 miles on electric, and then topping up batteries from the REX at an equivalent mpg of 42-45.

In REX mode on the motorway with the battery depleted, at 75mph you're always using more battery charge than the REX (a BMW 2cyl motorbike engine) can put back in. It happens over a good range, but you're still better either slowing down or stopping for a 30min rapid charge.

I was impressed by the i3, don't get me wrong, and it was an interesting and nice car to drive, but things like not being able to fit a towbar or roof bars for carrying bikes did annoy after a while.

[Xantiagib]

How much will it cost to replace the engine when that dies?

batteries should last 10 years at least £3000 from the dealer - possibly cheaper 3rd party better batteries available by then - is comparabale to timing belt change and sundries.

also the engine in a hybrid is used 2/3 less - and is less stressed - than a regular engine-use car so should last ages - plus its a honda - their engines last 40 years at least
(on the toyota it has a timing chain not belt so good for longer )

[rico]

As a devout petrolhead I could never bring myself to buy an electric, hybrid, or diesel car. My company car is a diesel and I detest the engine. It's a piddly 1.5 turbo diesel and has no torque or power whatsoever. You need to drive it like a lunatic just to make normal progress, especially coming out of junctions or hill-starts.

As an impact of the miniscule torque, i'me forever changing gears particularly in traffic. The ratios are all over the place IMO.

[TBKBABAB]

According to the SMMT, for the year to date in 2017, hybrid sales are running at around 2.5% of total car sales, full electric at around 1.5%. Neither is exactly reaching critical mass, perhaps that will change when the cheaper Tesla eventually arrives.

Interestingly in April, the most recent month with full figures, diesel still featured in 45% of vehicles sold so it hasn't exactly fallen on its backside just yet, though there is bound to be a reduction in diesel sales going forward.

Isnt the continued high proportion of sales down to attractive lease deals on diesels ?

[berin]

How many hybrid cars are bring sold as a proportion of new car sales? I'm sure that will be much higher than 0.3%

About 28,000 electric and hybrid cars in 2016 sold in 2017, according to this, so slightly more than 1%. The problem is that for most people, outside cities, who use their cars for everything from shopping trips and the school run to holidays and business, electric and hybrid cars just make no sense either practically or economically. Let alone for those that actually like cars (even the much derided new Top Gear get up to 4m viewers), and buy BMW and Audi and Alfa for reasons not just related to their utility as transport.
My guess is (and no disrespect intended here) is that the audience for electric cars is pretty much limited to those who would be buying some kind of dull French diesel people carrier.

[Dave+63]

batteries should last 10 years at least £3000 from the dealer - possibly cheaper 3rd party better batteries available by then - is comparabale to timing belt change and sundries.

also the engine in a hybrid is used 2/3 less - and is less stressed - than a regular engine-use car so should last ages - plus its a honda - their engines last 40 years at least
(on the toyota it has a timing chain not belt so good for longer )

My comment was a fairly flippant one in response to a comment about not buying a hybrid because of worries about the cost of replacing the batteries.

I wouldn't expect to have to change either the engine or the batteries in the normal life of the car.

I'm saving around £2,500 pa in fuel costs using an electric van rather than diesel. If, in ten years or so, I have to replace part or all of the battery pack, I've £25k in fuel savings to put towards the cost.

[Dave+63]

My guess is (and no disrespect intended here) is that the audience for electric cars is pretty much limited to those who would be buying some kind of dull French diesel people carrier.

You're way off the mark here, electric is the future and they are certainly not dull.

See if you can get yourself a test drive of a Tesla, that'll open your eyes.

And I know that they are very expensive but so were 65" flat screen TVs a couple of years ago!

[Gareth-W]

The death of diesel is somewhat premature...