Is this good design?

[Bogatir]

Zenith and the 70s is a bit tricky designwise for me. I think both Zenith and Omega did some lovely pieces during the innovative 70s and the Zenith Defy is really iconic. The fact that Gerald Genta (Royal Oak and Patek Nautilus) designed it //no he didn't - I stand corrected!// helps I guess. But does it look good or is it just brave? Do you think this model will survive and maybe increase in value? (the pictured watch doesn't belong to me)

[snowman]

I quite like the design, but I'm not too keen on the colour scheme.

M

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

[RustyBin5]

Just a dash of red or something would have elevated it for me. It really nice - just doesn't quite "pop"


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bogatir]

I agree about the colours. But what do you think about the case design? I've got the Omega Mariner 1 and I think that has more ooomph to it. The real winner for me on the Defy is the design of the indexes. The dial kind of reminds me of Omega Chronostop. My Mariner below...



Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app

[ac11111]

Not a fan, I can see the genta, but this one looks 70s rather than classic

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

[relaxer7]

Not a fan, I can see the genta, but this one looks 70s rather than classic

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

That sums it up for me too. I got excited and bought a vintage Favre the other day and on refection, maybe it just looks 60's and plain?

[taxico]

the bracelet doesn't look like it was period correct though...

[Bogatir]

That sums it up for me too. I got excited and bought a vintage Favre the other day and on refection, maybe it just looks 60's and plain?

That's a lovely watch, congrats! Happy that others share my affection for 70s design :)


Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app

[nickyboyo]

Genta, and all other 70's designs, should of stayed in the 70's (bloody awful.)

[snowman]

Genta, and all other 70's designs, should of stayed in the 70's (bloody awful.)

It's a viewpoint, but I think the 70s was a bit of a golden era for watch design personally.

Too many 'me too' watches these days and before that too.

Sure they didn't all work as well as others, but I'm hard pressed to think of an era where so many different ideas were tried in watch design.

Lots of other aspects of the '70s were rubbish, even then!

M.

[Carlton-Browne]

I think it's a lovely looking thing and very much of its' time. I've not been tracking values of Zenith on Ebay for several years now but I do recall that the marque vied with Girard-Perregaux for the number of daily search hits. As with anything you only have to be one Hodinkee article away from having some monstrous carbuncle turn into the belle of the ball. If you like it - buy one. I would in an instant.

As a matter of interest, do you have a source that this is a Genta design?

[cirotti]

As a matter of interest, do you have a source that this is a Genta design?[/QUOTE]

I think the Defy project is dated end of the 60'...along with El primero(1969)...I can't recall if Genta design but I doubt it...

[Tetlee]

It's a viewpoint, but I think the 70s was a bit of a golden era for watch design personally.

Too many 'me too' watches these days and before that too.

Sure they didn't all work as well as others, but I'm hard pressed to think of an era where so many different ideas were tried in watch design.

I agree, although maybe it's a generation thing? I was a child of the 70's and have always loved those brave weird and wonderful designs.

Mind you I'm also a Blackberry faithful, listen to vinyl and bought my first new cassette tape in years today so maybe I'm just stuck in the past, haha.

[Bogatir]

As a matter of interest, do you have a source that this is a Genta design?

Nope and you're right! It's not Genta, it says the Defy designers did the octagonal style before Genta.
I stand corrected, sorry about that.

http://wornandwound.com/affordable-v...zenith-defy-2/

Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app

[Bogatir]

It's a viewpoint, but I think the 70s was a bit of a golden era for watch design personally.

Too many 'me too' watches these days and before that too.

Sure they didn't all work as well as others, but I'm hard pressed to think of an era where so many different ideas were tried in watch design.

Lots of other aspects of the '70s were rubbish, even then!

M.

I totally agree about the 70s being a golden and also a very brave era for watchmaking. The variety in design is enormous and the big brands were experimenting on all levels - much like micro brands do nowadays. There were different quartz movements to choose from: Megaquartz, Electroquartz, Tuning fork. Watches were fun in the 70s, some maybe more fun than good-looking, but still.


Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app

[Bogatir]

I think it's a lovely looking thing and very much of its' time. I've not been tracking values of Zenith on Ebay for several years now but I do recall that the marque vied with Girard-Perregaux for the number of daily search hits. As with anything you only have to be one Hodinkee article away from having some monstrous carbuncle turn into the belle of the ball. If you like it - buy one. I would in an instant.

As a matter of interest, do you have a source that this is a Genta design?

I'm sorry, my mistake. Thanks for pointing it out! It would be interesting to see what he would have done to it though.


Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app

[lasz]

But does it look good or is it just brave? Do you think this model will survive and maybe increase in value?

I think it looks exceptionally lovely, but I'm a very poor judge of popular taste. I actually hope it doesn't increase in value so that people will come across it at random and like it and will be able to afford it and wear it because they won't be afraid something might happen to it. So many watches nowadays are being bought - and then stashed away - because people see a financial potential in them, and not because they like them, which, to my mind, is very much the wrong reason.

[Bogatir]

I think it looks exceptionally lovely, but I'm a very poor judge of popular taste. I actually hope it doesn't increase in value so that people will come across it at random and like it and will be able to afford it and wear it because they won't be afraid something might happen to it. So many watches nowadays are being bought - and then stashed away - because people see a financial potential in them, and not because they like them, which, to my mind, is very much the wrong reason.

Totally agree, good design and great engineering at a reasonable price. I wonder if ever increasing vintage watch prices will create more interest for the hobby or if it might kill it off?
PS: just got this one (10 minutes ago) at a very good price indeed. 70s but still very unclunky.


Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app

[lasz]

I wonder if ever increasing vintage watch prices will create more interest for the hobby or if it might kill it off?

I ask myself this question a lot, but it's a very difficult one to call. It definitely seems impossible that the prices we're seeing nowadays will hold, yet no-one knows where the breaking point actually is. I imagine it might happen in the way of the classic parable that Slavoj Žižek likes to use, when a cartoon character only falls to the ground once he looks down and realises that there's no ground under his feet anymore. One day, someone buying a watch might go "Jesus Christ, am I really paying this much for little more than a trinket?!", but unlike with all that went before them, it will resonate with the wider public and the long decline will begin in earnest.

My interest is very much in affordable watches, and quartz ones at that, which are already very cheap, so I don't think I'll benefit very much from the bubble bursting, but it will be interesting. This isn't schadenfreude, mind - just because you want to see the world burn doesn't mean you derive pleasure from individuals getting burned in the process if you know what I mean.

[Bogatir]

I ask myself this question a lot, but it's a very difficult one to call. It definitely seems impossible that the prices we're seeing nowadays will hold, yet no-one knows where the breaking point actually is. I imagine it might happen in the way of the classic parable that Slavoj Žižek likes to use, when a cartoon character only falls to the ground once he looks down and realises that there's no ground under his feet anymore. One day, someone buying a watch might go "Jesus Christ, am I really paying this much for little more than a trinket?!", but unlike with all that went before them, it will resonate with the wider public and the long decline will begin in earnest.

My interest is very much in affordable watches, and quartz ones at that, which are already very cheap, so I don't think I'll benefit very much from the bubble bursting, but it will be interesting. This isn't schadenfreude, mind - just because you want to see the world burn doesn't mean you derive pleasure from individuals getting burned in the process if you know what I mean.

Great input and interesting perspectives. Which type of watches do you think will be the first to suffer from a freefall? Are any brands immune? I'm thinking for instance about the extremely expensive put-in-a-safe-Vacherone Constantines and Richard Milles that they make five of and only Russian oligarchs can afford to buy for 2 million dollars (my knowledge of this market is very limited mind you). And what will happen to the comparatively "mid range" Daytonas that sell for 40 000 dollars a pop? Or is it the vintage Omegas and Zeniths that will tumble first (if ever)?


Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app

[lasz]

I honestly don't know where the first chink in the armour will prove to be - even though I'm very interested in luxury goods as a phenomenon, and I try to understand it through watches, I haven't been able to "crack it" in any meaningful way (yet). One fact to consider is that no matter how rich you are (unless you're a nihilst), you don't like losing money, so anyone who buys a Richard Mille or any other really expensive watch must believe that they're getting their money's worth. This, belief, is the foundation of luxury status of a commodity as far as I'm concerned, and this is most obvious around generational shifts in a society. Some luxury goods carry over to the next generation well (e.g. Rolex, though they're not a good example because they're really a phenomenon unto themselves, basically all the brands that have held value have done that in one way or another), and some don't - Cartier is one such brand I suppose where the buyers entering the market didn't care very much and the value tanked. (But even those that tank keep some of their former luxury aura as long as people remember that they once cost a lot - even that alone is a factor in a luxury object.)

My best guess would be that watches that have some sort of objective merit that one can reasonably expect to remain relevant - e.g. being exceptionally well made, featuring interesting complication or having some other unique characteristic, especially combined with rarity - will probably be among the survivors, whatever that will mean at that future point in time. We can witness this logic at work even at present where in-house movement will typically mean a higher price and even became a prerequisite for brands that wanted to keep the yearly price hikes, and just remember how outraged people were when Panerai got lazy with the PAM318: customers felt that they got nothing special in return for the price premium, and they didn't like it one bit. Apart from that, it's anyone's guess, really. And how do you see this, what does your crystal ball say?

[Morrissey]

Love the strap, sort of chain link.


Mozza

[Dave in Wales]

Good design is 'in the eye of the beholder'

[Mark lowman]

I think retro may now be permanently in or at least for a generation. You see 'Mods' everywhere even if they do not realise that they are channeling the look. 70's chique is also very strong. I often look at Defys and have been very tempted in the past. The only thing is that I'm not sure some of the brown dialled defys age well they appear very very old and a little battered imho like they've come straight out of the attic. I think the trick with Vintage is to have the look that screams vintage but a bit of jauntiness. For some reason a lot of the vintage Omega just looks a little bit better preserved.

[Carlton-Browne]

The only thing is that I'm not sure some of the brown dialled defys age well they appear very very old and a little battered imho like they've come straight out of the attic.

I know what you mean but don't forget that they were a relatively large watch for their era and that makes them liable to be bounced off things more often. Most examples you see of the TV-dial JLC Master Quartz and the larger Unisonics are the same, if not more so. Mercifully there's a lot of metal to allow for refinishing.

[RustyBin5]

Nice strap. Horrid case and dial. Move on


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[witti]

I have to say I love the bracelet most, original to the watch or not. In fact I'm a fan of Zenith, but in vintage I used to have a far less polarising model, an Espada.

As it was mentioned earlier companies tried so many things in the 70s, some became true classics some remained...well 70s.
The best I have from the period is my TransOcean, which in my eyes haven't lost all its freshness in forty years, although it's not a widely celebrated model.



Sent from my SM-T230 using TZ-UK mobile app

[Bogatir]

I honestly don't know where the first chink in the armour will prove to be - even though I'm very interested in luxury goods as a phenomenon, and I try to understand it through watches, I haven't been able to "crack it" in any meaningful way (yet). One fact to consider is that no matter how rich you are (unless you're a nihilst), you don't like losing money, so anyone who buys a Richard Mille or any other really expensive watch must believe that they're getting their money's worth. This, belief, is the foundation of luxury status of a commodity as far as I'm concerned, and this is most obvious around generational shifts in a society. Some luxury goods carry over to the next generation well (e.g. Rolex, though they're not a good example because they're really a phenomenon unto themselves, basically all the brands that have held value have done that in one way or another), and some don't - Cartier is one such brand I suppose where the buyers entering the market didn't care very much and the value tanked. (But even those that tank keep some of their former luxury aura as long as people remember that they once cost a lot - even that alone is a factor in a luxury object.)

My best guess would be that watches that have some sort of objective merit that one can reasonably expect to remain relevant - e.g. being exceptionally well made, featuring interesting complication or having some other unique characteristic, especially combined with rarity - will probably be among the survivors, whatever that will mean at that future point in time. We can witness this logic at work even at present where in-house movement will typically mean a higher price and even became a prerequisite for brands that wanted to keep the yearly price hikes, and just remember how outraged people were when Panerai got lazy with the PAM318: customers felt that they got nothing special in return for the price premium, and they didn't like it one bit. Apart from that, it's anyone's guess, really. And how do you see this, what does your crystal ball say?

I think you're bang on with the correlation between the value of a luxury good and generation shifts. I have a friend whose dad bought a Jaguar E-type 20 years ago for 12000 USD. It's now worth 100000 USD. When we discussed the future value of the car he imagined that it might not go up any more because the car was a dream car for a particular generation (think T-Ford). What a certain generation believes is intrinsic value might prove to be worthless to another generation. The whole idea that what is valuable to us might just be mildly interesting to our kids is hard to accept. It's like downgrading the dreams we had as kids and accepting the fact that "our" generation is in the backseat instead of being behind the wheel.
That said I think Rolex might have played out it's role as the top dog because the brand is turning into an old dude's luxury watch. Every generation has it's heroes and I have a feeling they are going the way of Mercedes. New vintage hotties will pop up (that produce less than a million watches a year) as people get more "educated" (Rolex being the most obvious luxury pick). I'm only referring to brand value here and not the actual quality, Rolex may well be the world's finest mass produced thing – all categories. When it comes to new watches I think the industry is in dire straits - it'll be the vintage market that will keep the passion going.
THAT SAID! I think the Defy above and it's largely ignored seventies cousins may well be the next cadre of watches to be discovered by a new generation of watch lovers.


Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app

[Bogatir]

I think retro may now be permanently in or at least for a generation. You see 'Mods' everywhere even if they do not realise that they are channeling the look. 70's chique is also very strong. I often look at Defys and have been very tempted in the past. The only thing is that I'm not sure some of the brown dialled defys age well they appear very very old and a little battered imho like they've come straight out of the attic. I think the trick with Vintage is to have the look that screams vintage but a bit of jauntiness. For some reason a lot of the vintage Omega just looks a little bit better preserved.

Yup! Omega really stand out, especially 70s Omegas.


Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app

[Grandsire]

Hheres mine:



I much prefer its slightly older case design over the one above. It'll come back from service/ redial at some point. Maybe.

[Bogatir]

Good design is 'in the eye of the beholder'

I'm not sure though. Good design is made by good designers who create aestethics that the next and the next and the next model can build on and refer to. Car companies are very good at outlining future products before they launch current line-ups. Tech companies do the same, when Apple launches a new phone they have already decided the progress for the next product. I wonder if watch companies had and have that long view when they bring new designs to the market?


Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app

[Bogatir]

Hheres mine:



I much prefer its slightly older case design over the one above. It'll come back from service/ redial at some point. Maybe.

No!!! Keep that dial please :) It's amazing!


Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app

[Bogatir]

I know what you mean but don't forget that they were a relatively large watch for their era and that makes them liable to be bounced off things more often. Most examples you see of the TV-dial JLC Master Quartz and the larger Unisonics are the same, if not more so. Mercifully there's a lot of metal to allow for refinishing.

IMHO the Master Quartz may well be the crowning achievement of the 70s watch design
And I do think JLC might be the new Rolex, brand-wise. It's a bit of a watch lover's watch and you have to "discover" it (unlike Rolex that everybody recognises).


Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app

[Bogatir]

IMHO the Master Quartz may well be the crowning achievement of the 70s watch design


Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app

Note to self: never comment on yourself! See above instead


Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app

[Mark lowman]

No!!! Keep that dial please :) It's amazing!


Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app

Actually that does put me in two minds, it's what I meant when I said a lot of the Defy's look battered in terms of dial. However I love this one! Made me think about them again

[Bogatir]

Actually that does put me in two minds, it's what I meant when I said a lot of the Defy's look battered in terms of dial. However I love this one! Made me think about them again

The combo with that dial, the crown on the side and nato strap is perfect, it's one of the nicest Defy's I've seen. I think I'll try and get one too while they are still cheap-ish. Do you know if it came on bracelet or strap when new?


Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app

[Mark lowman]

The combo with that dial, the crown on the side and nato strap is perfect, it's one of the nicest Defy's I've seen. I think I'll try and get one too while they are still cheap-ish. Do you know if it came on bracelet or strap when new?


Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app

Look out for the ones on the Gay Freres ladder bracelets they tend to come in at around £1200 - £1500 however the bracelet is going to be worth a few bob in itself . Sadly Gay Freres I understand was bought up by Rolex so there lovely bracelets are no longer available across other brands.

[Bogatir]

Look out for the ones on the Gay Freres ladder bracelets they tend to come in at around £1200 - £1500 however the bracelet is going to be worth a few bob in itself . Sadly Gay Freres I understand was bought up by Rolex so there lovely bracelets are no longer available across other brands.

Just found one, thanks for the tip! It lacks your exceptional side mounted crown though.


Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app

[Bogatir]

Look out for the ones on the Gay Freres ladder bracelets they tend to come in at around £1200 - £1500 however the bracelet is going to be worth a few bob in itself . Sadly Gay Freres I understand was bought up by Rolex so there lovely bracelets are no longer available across other brands.

Hi! Quick question ...
Is your Defy the 300 m diver or the 600 m diver? And! Do you have a reference number for that particular model? I'm trying to read up on all the different versions (of which I find yours is the nicest :).
Cheers!


Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app

[Grandsire]

No!!! Keep that dial please :) It's amazing!


Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app

I got it restored and it looks bloody awesome!







Thanks to Duncan for his hard work and the dial restores @ watchdialrestoration.co.uk. So much better than Davidbill and sons

[Carlton-Browne]

I wouldn't want to reflect too much on how bad David Bill are, in which case.

[Bogatir]

I got it restored and it looks bloody awesome!







Thanks to Duncan for his hard work and the dial restores @ watchdialrestoration.co.uk. So much better than Davidbill and sons

Hands down, that is probably the most beautiful Zenith-dial I have ever seen. Congratulations on an amazing piece!
What exactly did they do to the dial?


Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app

[Grandsire]

I'm very confused as to how you are following this thread Bogatir

Before:


After


Then Duncan relumed it.

[Bogatir]

I'm not sure what you're thinking of, but on the whole I am generally confused about a great many things. Not about the Defy with crown at 4 though. I need one.

I'm very confused as to how you are following this thread Bogatir

Before:


After


Then Duncan relumed it.