Zalando Lounge - Hermes

[vcarter]

I need some advice as I'm getting really frustrated, maybe someone has more experience with these things.

I've ordered few things from Zalando Lounge without any issues, but my last 2 orders made me think I might have been just lucky before and the problem is mainly with Hermes (their courier partner).

First order
Order was dispatched (later than it supposed to), I've got the Hermes tracking. Few days later tracking shows out for delivery, but no attempted delivery. Next day I called them what is happening (no status change on the tracking, usually it's back to the depot or delayed...). I've been told as it's a business service they can't give me any information, I need to contact Zalando, but if it's out for delivery I should wait till next day. On the third day I contacted Zalando, but their so called customer services was unable to do anything, so I filed a claim on PayPal. On the fifth day out of nowhere tracking status has been changed to delivered (without delivery ofc), stating it was signed by me. Contacting Zalando again, I want to see that signature, but they refused (technical BS reasons). PayPal claim was denied because the tracking shows delivered... Their "investigation" was checking the tracking, when I asked for that signature, they advised to contact the shipping company (catch 22). So it's a lost cause and now I know that PayPal's buyer protection stops at a level.

Second order
Before the issues started with the first order, I've placed another order. They failed again to deliver on the estimated timeline. When I asked when do they plan to deliver the answer was it's with the courier (Hermes) and from this point they have no control over the delivery. As I was going on a business trip I tried to contact both Hermes and Zalando that they should reschedule the delivery, no answer. I thought if they can't deliver it'll go back to depot with a card left, but to my biggest surprise it was delivered on the tracking.
Zalando was asking me to sign a legally binding declaration to investigate the issue, but at this point I don't want to sign anything. I've sent them my flight details which is a proof that I was out of the country, so I was unable to receive and sign for the delivery, but they insist to that signed declaration.

My question is, do I have to provide that legally bonding document? I have a proof, that I was not at home, they only have that BS Hermes tracking.
Who needs to prove at this point that the delivery was real or not?

[markrlondon]

IANAL, all this is just my opinion.

PayPal claim was denied because the tracking shows delivered... Their "investigation" was checking the tracking, when I asked for that signature, they advised to contact the shipping company (catch 22). So it's a lost cause and now I know that PayPal's buyer protection stops at a level.

Speak to your neighbours to see if anything was delivered. See if you can speak to a human at PayPal.

If you funded the PayPal payment using a Visa or Mastercard card (any card, not just a credit card) and you don't get sense from PayPal then try a 'card chargeback' (not a Section 75 claim) with your card provider for the payment. This should wake up PayPal and the vendor.

Even then you are not out of legal avenues. The next step will be the County Court, if it's worth it.

My question is, do I have to provide that legally bonding document? I have a proof, that I was not at home, they only have that BS Hermes tracking.
Who needs to prove at this point that the delivery was real or not?

At this stage they are in the position of only having to prove things to their satisfaction. You can go through the same steps as above but, ultimately, if they or PayPal will not be more reasonable then, again, you can take it to the County Court.

In the County Court, actual evidence is required to persuade the judge and the case is decided on the balance of probabilities. Judges have very likely had poor experiences with Hermes too.

Not that I am suggesting that you should take it to the County Court except as a last resort. The County Court has costs associated with it. But it is the ultimate destination if you cannot get sense out of the vendor, or Hermes, or PayPal.

Certainly my next port of call in your situation would be to try phoning and speaking to a real human at PayPal for both cases.




P.S. I am jumping the gun a bit (since County Court action should be a last resort) but if you do need to eventually go the County Court route then get this book and follow it: 'Small Claims Procedure in the County Court'. It tells you everything you need to know, including about pre-action protocols which are now important for all claimants.

[vcarter]

After the first issue, I've had some emails with PayPal, I quote:

"Although it is possible your item was not received, we are unable to reverse your payment when the only evidence we have indicates the item was delivered to you. We don’t sell or physically ship anything in this case, so we are unable to reimburse you.
...
Most shipping companies do not display the full address, as a result, we accept the city/state/zip code match for delivery. We rely on the shipping company to provide unbiased information regarding the shipment and delivery of the package."

So I have a feeling speaking to a real human there would not help.

Also I've got an email from PayPal just today after having these 2 claims:

"We want you to be happy with your purchases, but we may find it necessary to suspend your PayPal account privileges if we continue to notice a high number of problems with your PayPal transactions. Pending further review, we may also suspend any outstanding and future buyer protection claims, and we reserve the right to deny these claims.

We simply wanted to give you a chance to reassess your account activity for the future. You don’t need to take any action, and we don’t require a response to this message."

Do I understand correctly that they kind of "threatened" me?

Btw. the values are below £50 in both cases, so it's not worth take them to County Court.

[vcarter]

P.S. I am jumping the gun a bit (since County Court action should be a last resort) but if you do need to eventually go the County Court route then get this book and follow it: 'Small Claims Procedure in the County Court'. It tells you everything you need to know, including about pre-action protocols which are now important for all claimants.

Thanks for this tip as well.

[markrlondon]

I think that speaking to PayPal on the phone is still well worth it. You have reason to complain about PayPal's attitude and response. Yes, they have subtly threatened you!

Even below £50 it could still potentially be worth going to court (if it comes to it), especially with both orders together. It's quite unlikely that the vendor would allow it to actually get to court, of course.

[SteveR]

I wish you all the best in this issue!

From a quick Google they get some pretty shoddy reviews on trust pilot. Hermes are also as bad as couriers get but it's definitely worth trying to converse with a person to get your point across. Never used PayPal but their tone sounds quite hostile!

[vcarter]

I think that speaking to PayPal on the phone is still well worth it. You have reason to complain about PayPal's attitude and response. Yes, they have subtly threatened you!

Even below £50 it could still potentially be worth going to court (if it comes to it), especially with both orders together. It's quite unlikely that the vendor would allow it to actually get to court, of course.

Just some update, I called PayPal and got an email address to send my evidence to.
I'm really curious how will they decide after seeing the contradiction...

Also, Zalando Lounge is shipping from Germany, so not sure which court would deal with it in this case.

[markrlondon]

Just some update, I called PayPal and got an email address to send my evidence to.
I'm really curious how will they decide after seeing the contradiction...

Hope they decide sensibly.

Also, Zalando Lounge is shipping from Germany, so not sure which court would deal with it in this case.

Do they have any UK address? If so, you should be able to serve them there should it come to it.

If they have no UK presence then there is a standardised EU small claims procedure (more than one of them, in fact, I believe) but I doubt it would be worth it for the size of claim in question, unfortunately. The EU documentation about it implies that it is simple but it seems to be anything but simple.

[vcarter]

Hope they decide sensibly.

At the end they did (got the refund for the second order), my proof was stronger than the tracking and they couldn't provide anything else.
It was a good lesson, I won't order anything if the courier is Hermes...

[Vanguard]

Hermes are shockingly bad, probably the worst service you can use. My business ships a lot of goods with couriers and we tried Hermes, lasted about a week then we binned them off.

[seikopath]

Hermes are shockingly bad, probably the worst service you can use. My business ships a lot of goods with couriers and we tried Hermes, lasted about a week then we binned them off.

I think yodel are worse

[markrlondon]

At the end they did (got the refund for the second order), my proof was stronger than the tracking and they couldn't provide anything else.
It was a good lesson, I won't order anything if the courier is Hermes...

Excellent. Well done for persevering.

[jools]

That's a good(ish) result. There's a huge thread on the Amazon forum dedicated to Hermes moans, it amazes me that Amazon use them.

[Rod]

Well I've sat in and wasted an afternoon waiting for Hermes. I was expecting a parcel and they have just sent Liz an email saying they have attempted twice to deliver this afternoon . Liers too.

[andrewcregan]

With Hermes, their tracking always says 'Out for delivery today'.
Bizarelly this always means delivery tomorrow!

Today they delivered 2 parcels, whilst we were both out.
I had left a note on the front door - If no answer, please deliver to no xx (next door!) and they will sign.
Both parcels also had a note attached - if no answer, deliver to no xx.

I found both parcels sat on the front doorstep. Good job that we live in a very low crime rate area

[KavKav]

Well I've sat in and wasted an afternoon waiting for Hermes. I was expecting a parcel and they have just sent Liz an email saying they have attempted twice to deliver this afternoon . Liers too.

They are bloody liars! Last week they said they had put a Amazon item through my letterbox which was absolute *ollocks as the item was way too large to go through my letterbox. Fortunately Amazon 'got my point' and replaced the item and shipped it with a different courier.

[vcarter]

I found both parcels sat on the front doorstep. Good job that we live in a very low crime rate area

And I reckon it was also "signed" on the tracking...

[andrewcregan]

And I reckon it was also "signed" on the tracking...

It actually doesn't say that.
However, what it does say, "Posted through letterbox", which simply was not true.

[vcarter]

It actually doesn't say that.
However, what it does say, "Posted through letterbox", which simply was not true.

Fortunately you've got your delivery, but it seems they don't really leave cards, their solution is to leave the box(es) wherever and mark it delivered.
I wonder how long they'll exist on the market.

[andrewcregan]

Fortunately you've got your delivery, but it seems they don't really leave cards, their solution is to leave the box(es) wherever and mark it delivered.
I wonder how long they'll exist on the market.

I do feel somewhat lucky that both my parcels were still sat on the doorstep. They had been there for 2.5 hours
They don't deserve to remain in the market.

[Julian]

Bought 2 items from separate vendors on Ebay recently .Both were to be sent RM 1st. class with a delivery estimate 2 days max. They were not delivered on time so I followed it up. They were sent using Hermes and by the time they'd gone through the various procedures of delivery 5 working days had ensued .In fact they were still at the Hermes base in the vendor's home town 2 days after purchase . In future I shall seek assurance that each purchase I make is not being sent via Hermes unless of course I don't mind waiting a week for delivery .
About a year ago I tracked a Hermes item only to find that the local office had marked it up as "delivered" when I had not received it .I complained to the main office here in UK and was told that it had been delivered and "signed for ".I explained that this was certainly a false statement by their local office and I was not very pleased with the matter. Around 9.30 that evening the local Hermes guy delivered the package apologising for the delay owing to a "family bereavement ".Bloody awful .

[mmgg1988]

Had forgotten this thread and then made the same error of ordering something from Zalando Lounge. Thing is, I had recently ordered something from Zalando itself which whilst delivered by Hermes was actually fine as they delivered to one of their collection shops so I could pick it up after work. Even texted me when it was there.

Sadly, this doesnt work with Zalando Lounge. Still have the courier trying to deliver to me when I am not there and never tells me when he might come or how I can contact to tell him when I am in. Even more ironically I ordered something from someone else who also sent it via damn Hermes so he is running around with that too.

Unless they arrive so that I can actually get my hands on them by the end of the week, they can both be sent back to the respective retalier who, for chosing Hermes, can pay for the delivery, the return and will have lost all the current and future business!

I don't work in online retail but I would have thought the most important part of the business is the logistics. You have to have a reliable delivery service with which customers can interact and whom both sides trust to deliver their items in a timely and convenient manner. As several people have said, they wont order items delivered by Hermes so why alienate all those customers by using them?

As for Hermes, why not allow customers to pick up parcels at a ParcelShop as a regular thing? I have 3 within a mile of me and they are open 18hrs/day so that is much more convenient for me than them being left wherever or never delivered!

[vcarter]

Had forgotten this thread and then made the same error of ordering something from Zalando Lounge. Thing is, I had recently ordered something from Zalando itself which whilst delivered by Hermes was actually fine as they delivered to one of their collection shops so I could pick it up after work. Even texted me when it was there.

Sadly, this doesnt work with Zalando Lounge.

Zalando is shipping from UK, while Zalando Lounge is shipping from Germany and that makes a difference. I've had one order with Zalando and that was ok, but not anymore or at least as long as they'll use Hermes...

[andrewcregan]

I was expecting 2 parcels from Hermes yesterday ie the tracking said out for delivery on Saturday(!)
Got home and no sign of anything, even though I had left a note asking for parcels to be left next door, and no card had been left through the door.
In the evening the Mrs was going to the bin via the back door and almost tripped over 2 boxes Good job it had been dry.
The Hermes guy had gone through 2 gates to get to our back door (not sure how happy I am about that?) but couldn't leave a card?

[markrlondon]

I don't work in online retail but I would have thought the most important part of the business is the logistics. You have to have a reliable delivery service with which customers can interact and whom both sides trust to deliver their items in a timely and convenient manner. As several people have said, they wont order items delivered by Hermes so why alienate all those customers by using them?

I suspect that Hermes survives (so far) by being just good enough at the lowest price possible. This means that although they have something of a bad name it is not yet bad enough such that loss of custom is noticeable for their clients.

Time will tell. It's not a business model that will succeed in the longer run. I think it can only succeed in the short or medium terms where there is overall growth in custom in their sector. Once that organic growth slows down then their model will not remain viable.

[SteveR]

Is it a coincidence that I don't recall ever recieving a delivery from any medical company I order from (that's quite a lot) from Hermes?

We do see them a few times but that's staff online shopping etc.

All the big companies use the big courier services.

[mmgg1988]

People would die if medical supplies were delivered by Hermes. I think it is only used by the public and retaliers rather than manufacturers

markrlondon, I am sure you are right. I do (well have!) used them as a sender for low value items as for Ebay sales etc, they provide tracking for all items and importantly for me, I can drop items at any ParcelShop at any time. It just seems odd that for presumably little further investment in these shops, allowing people to collect there as well they could negate a lot of the cost of repeat deliveries and the delivery complaints they receive on this and other forums etc.

[markrlondon]

It just seems odd that for presumably little further investment in these shops, allowing people to collect there as well they could negate a lot of the cost of repeat deliveries and the delivery complaints they receive on this and other forums etc.

Yup, it is odd. Perhaps there is a mismatch between what the retailers would like to be paid for holding outgoing goods (and doing security checks to make sure that packages are going to the right recipient) versus what Hermes are willing to pay.

I recently had an UPS package that was delivered to my local UPS drop off point, a dry cleaner(!). When I turned up with my ID, the dry cleaner did not recognise the ID and complained that he had been previously 'fined' by UPS for mistakenly handing out a package to the wrong person. Personally, were I a retailer in such a scenario, I'd want to be well paid in order to act as the last line of distribution. It sounds riskier than simply taking in parcels to be sent.

I do (well have!) used them as a sender for low value items as for Ebay sales etc, they provide tracking for all items and importantly for me, I can drop items at any ParcelShop at any time.

I've used Collect+ (which is Yodel and PayPoint) for similar reasons for low value, physically resilient items: Tracking and easy despatch via local shops.

[andrewcregan]

Had an item delivered today, that was an experience totally different to Hermes.

I was constantly updated by email, text, and eventually a phone call. Often wonder why you give all these contact details, and most companies make no use of them.
Live tracking was provided of the delivery van (online map), what number drop I was, how many drops they were doing in the day and given a 2 hour delivery window the night before.
About half an hour before delivery they phoned and checked all was OK.
My delivery slot had been 1450-1650, and they appeared at 1510. Superb.

Just 2 lads, no uniform, and a white van. Making it look really easy.
Others could learn a lot.

[mmgg1988]

The above must be DPD. Great communication, I had a delivery from them recently when I thought I would be in but a couple of hours before I realised that I wouldn't be. No problem, clicked on the tracking link and selected a local pickup shop and collected the item from there the next day.

Just to update, the Hermes person did actually manage to deposit the items in my secure block entrance, what I wanted them to do on day 1. This might only have come about after contacting the retailers themselves...

I get the point about the extra risks of pickup. As I said before, it is possible to do this with Zalando but not Zalando Lounge so there must be an ability in Hermes shops to do this but I guess there must be an extra charge for retailers which the cheaper ones avoid!

[andrewcregan]

Got a shock today when Hermes delivered a parcel (a new watch, of course ) on a Sunday afternoon.
An unexpected and pleasant surprise.