Reply With QuoteMake them smaller, some lovely watches but most just look huge.
I found the following interesting, if written in a slightly contrived way.
The post asks what direction Zenith needs to be taken in by its new CEO.
I think in terms of us WIS, Zenith has a deserved good reputation but there's no doubt it's not a company that resonates with the public almost at all and it's struggling to make a real success of itself.
So what does a watch company with Zenith's history do to move forward and ensure its future is safe in this testing time?
I'm sure you gents will have your own thoughts.
This is the article that got me thinking: http://quillandpad.com/2017/01/05/new-ceo-zenith/
For what it's worth I don't think it does enough with its 'cutaway' dials. I don't really like them but if what you could see was REALLY interesting maybe I'd have my mind changed. With its El Primero line I feel like it's turning into an Omega Speedie - change the colour a bit, link up with a brand (see Land Rover), or a band (see Rolling Stones), make it an LE and 'hey presto'. It's lazy, even if some of the watches ARE very nice. They surely have to use their history far more too. And innovate, as the company has done in the past.
What the Quill and Pad guys say about a women's line is interesting too. I know for sure my mum would have loved more of a choice without diamonds/mother of pearl when she was choosing a watch a couple of years back. She ended up with an Omega Ladymatic, white dial, though there wasn't a lot of interesting choice.
Make them smaller, some lovely watches but most just look huge.
I'd like to see a simple high beat 3 hander with date complication from them...
Stop fitting a chronograph designed for 36mm cases into ever larger watches.
Originally Posted by TimeThoughts
They already make that. The Espada is a 3 hander (with date) that uses the El Primero movement
They need to market themselves more. They never have really I guess and probably suffered because of that.
Mention Zenith to a non WIS and they've never heard of them . They need to get themselves in the glossy mags and ad pages of the financial papers
I think those roundtable participants in the post are generally wrong, confused, and incoherent.
One person says they would only have two watch lines (divided by Elite and El Primero movements) and each of those would have three subdivisions (retro, sporty, and avante-garde). That's an idiotic way of attempting to say that they want to have three lines and obviously each line contains examples of each of Zenith's two primary movements. Their avant-garde line is even for testing bleeding edge developments, which is difficult to see how it would fit in with their two primary workhorse movements. Honestly, do they think before they open their mouths?
Another guy says they have three options available - faithful re-issues, brand/celebrity limited editions, or modern re-interpretations and they can't possibly do them all. Zenith is owned by LVMH and has vast resources, of course they can do all three and that's what they have been doing.
There's also the ludicrious suggestion that Zenith should offer a separate line of ladies' watches that don't focus on small size or feminine colours. Excuse me, how exactly is Zenith well placed to do this? LVMH already owns Chaumet, Bulgari, Tag Heuer, LV, and Dior. Why should Zenith go on to make a unique/different ladies' watch collection if there is zero brand heritage behind doing so and they only have two non-quartz calibres? The same lunatic then goes on to say that Zenith should pursue jump-hours, retrogrades, and full digital dates.... oh and an alarm, like Zenith didn't already mkae the doublematic.
But the most idiotic suggestion of all has to be the complaints about the open-dial. You're selling mechanical watches as a brand, and Zenith cemented the open-heart el-primero design from the 2000s. I'm a die-hard Zenith fan and the Chronomaster 1969 Open is the quintissential Zenith watch that I choose to own because it melds the El Primero movement, the 1969-era Tricolor with the 60s-70s aesthetic, and the most successful recent modern Zenith design element. They even complain that the movements don't have "chamfered edges, unique wheel spokes" in the open heart models.... but the silicon escapement wheel does have a unique design and chamfering is just not part of the El Primero movement design. The window does have chamfered edges for what it's worth.
Frankly the only sensible comments in the entire article are:
-Reducing number of variations
-Offering some smaller sizes (which is already happening)
If I were CEO, the key things I would do would be:
Restore the organization to be closer to that under Jean Frederic Dufour
That is to say, the design ethic should be the deciding factor for the collection. The Winsor annual calendar does not belong in the Chronomaster collection. It should be with the rest of the watches currently in the 'elite' collection. This collection should be renamed (Classic?) so that it is not contradictory with the movements - the classic chronograph el primero should not be in a collection called 'Elite' when you have a movement called 'Elite'. There isn't actually a problem with having several collections, the problem is when the collections are impossible to understand. For god's sake the ladies' star collection is in the 'pilot' collection now and Stratos models are present in both the Chronomaster and Pilot sections. IWC have an excellent and rational collection system, despite having 6 main lines - I know instantly what each collection represents.
Zenith should re-organize into: Chronomaster, Defy, Stratos, Classic, Pilot, and Academy. If they really, really want to cut down, Stratos can be in the Pilot section and be called 'Pilot Stratos' similar to what IWC does with the Spitfire. Or they can even put it in the Chronomaster series because of the design being rather similar.
In general the asethetic follows like this:
Chronomaster - Late 60s/early 70s retro
Pilot - 1930s era pilots, which is a good way of differentiating Zenith from the WWII era Germanic designs
Classic - 1950s/early 60s classics
Defy - Contemporary
Academy - Anything goes
Cut production
Zenith seem to struggle to move units. Zenith wants to be a luxury brand. If they want to be more desirable as a luxury brand, they should not have so many units that they reliably have 30% off sales.
Focus on the Chronomaster and offer more choice for 38mm/40mm models
The Chronomaster is emblematic of Zenith's revival. It is a good balance of sporty and dressy, it is a good every-day watch, which means it should sell units. It could conceivably be someone's 'only watch'. If my target customers can only think of one watch when I think of 'Zenith', I want it to be the Chronomaster. Zenith also owns this aesthetic right now - Mido, Chronoswiss, and others pushed it first but largely abandoned it. Others are piling in on the retro 60s/70s revival. Zenith can and should stamp its claim on this.
This is the model you want the most options for your customers, and since a huge amount of demand is in Asia now, 38mm watches make sense because Asian's have smaller wrists. If 38mm is too small to sell well universally, then just bloody make a 40mm version - the case is already there for the Espada and Synopsis, just make a new set of dials and drill holes for the pushers.
Place the Pilot as Zenith's 'second' icon
Pushing the Pilot too hard is tricky - it's a very distinctive design and is really very much for the watch enthusiast. This is good, because Zenith is supposed to be an 'insider's' or 'watch nerd's' brand, but I would put Chronomaster first for now. I would also be wary of letting Pilot SKUs proliferate. There should be a big date el primero, a normal sized Elite, a bronze elite, with maybe jumbo versions, and not a huge amount more. Are people really coming to the Zenith pilot series for annual calendars and tourbillons?
Re-orient marketing to focus on watch nerds
Zenith should be capturing watch nerds, not fashionistas or celebrity lovers. The latter group is most decidedly not Zenith's target market and those people will almost always choose something loud and shallow. Zenith should market itself more, but as a company that had the capability to develop a movement which has stood the test of time for 40+ years. They should advertise themselves as the only ones making a 10bps chronograph movement (in any meaningful quantity unlike Breguet and Chopard), advertise the silicon escapement, etc. The Defy is a step in the right direction. This can help them in their ladies' collections too, so that watch nerds will want to buy their ladies Zenith watches as gifts because they can't stand shelling out huge money for quartz Cartiers. Of course 99/100 they'll end up buying a Cartier anyway for the wife, but pushing a Land Rover connection won't even get you 1/100. Zenith should remain a watch-lover's brand.
Instead of blowing money on celebrities or classic cars, or other crap come up with by marketers whose only weapon is age demographics, they should try to connect more with the mechanisms in their marketing. I don't know, like turn up to SalonQP and let people play with the movements like JCL do. That kind of stuff gets you customers for life. LVMH could even advertise it more that Zenith supply Bulgari and Tag Heuer with movements - I doubt it's going to appreciably cost those companies any customers, and any cannibalization would be much cheaper than the equivalent marketing given those two companies' giant head-start in brand awareness.
Other random things:
1. Put 18k rotors back on the 18k models
2. Make a smaller version of the Elite 6150
3. Cut the number of gold and platinum models offered - these are great for margins, but really Zenith's target demographic probably focus on steel watches
4. Unless academy and tourbillon pieces are selling very well, I probably would scale back
5. I'm not sure I would have pushed for a 100th second movement for the Defy... I agree it makes sense for LVMH to put it with Zenith rather than Tag Heuer, but I seriously wonder about the longevity.
6. Zenith's approach to ladies' watches is bang on the money with the current 'Elite' models. Where else do you get ladies watches with genuine movement credentials and classic designs? I'd probably kill off the Star models because they're ugly and push marketing on the other ladies models.
7. Bring back Striking 10th
8. Axe the rolling stones crap, it's really not the target audience at all
9. I'd probably axe Stratos unless it's selling strongly. The sports watch market is way too competitive, and Defy is far more unique.
Last edited by spluurfg; 21st April 2017 at 22:05.
For me the Open Heart models represent everything that is wrong with the brand. They appeal to a niche audience and it's these that are so heavily discounted. I was offered the tricolour brand new recently at a hefty 56% discount.
I believe the Espada is discontinued. Which I regret, hence my post.
I could be corrected though...
Thanks for a well written and well researched article Spluurfg! This was the first time I read something coherent about the Zenith mess. I'm a Zentih fan too – mainly vintage Zenith from the 70s – but I can't claim to be particularly knowledgeable. Still, when I compare vintage Omega's and vintage Zenith I am amazed that Omega has managed to keep their structure together over the years. They messed things up pretty much in the 70s with chronometer rating on Geneve-models and F300s that didn't belong to any range – but I think today they have managed to pull together a structure that is intelligible. Zenith on the other hand seemed almost uninterested in branding of models back in the day with the product line printed on the back instead of on the dial. There are Respirators, Stellinas, Surfs and Pilots (which look nothing like today's model's). The vintage model that sticks out for me is the Defy, which was quite particular back then with its clear design- and branding message. When I look at the vintage prices, values for some Defy's also seem to be gathering pace. The way Spluurfg explains the Defy-line today, I really feel it also makes sense from a brand heritage perspective.
That makes me wonder if Zenith is still hurting from lack of branding back then? They are talking about heritage, but it's harder for them to make use of that heritage compared to say Omega because they can't refer to particular models in the same way. Also I think they had a bad spell with the Zenith Radio Corp who accelerated the brand devaluation and were just saved by Charles Vermot who "liberated" the El Primero movement from gung ho-americans.
El Primero is actually the next problem I have with Zenith. They have marketed the movement so hard that it is a stronger brand name than the product lines it is fitted in. I almost think Zenith could do a Grand Seiko (I'm referring to it being its own brand now, apart from Seiko) and simply let El Primero go its own way. Everybody's trying to market themselves with in-house movements. Zenith actually makes them – but can't seem to capitalize from it. These are wild speculations, but if the Zenith-brand keeps on devaluating they could be going the way of Lemania, whose name was discontinued and became a movement manufacturer for Swatch Group.
The lack of direction may also be part of how LVHM position the brand. I think they describe Zenith in quite a wishy-washy language:
"Feet on the ground and head in the stars. From the design to the finish of each piece, Zenith strives to set life in motion and push the boundaries of the impossible. Its mechanisms place the Swiss House at the forefront of the art of watchmaking."
And they don't talk about any current line-ups, but instead:
"El Primero, a remarkable and now-legendary movement which the House’s craftsmen spent seven years developing, captures the magic of these beautiful mechanisms, a high-frequency magic that makes 10 vibrations per second. With over 300 patents filed, the House has built up an impressive bank of savoir-faire honored with over 2,300 awards for timekeeping precision. Year after year, these awards reward the level of excellence shared by the 80 métiers that come together to manufacture a Zenith watch and its components."
Compare it to the somewhat dry but (I think) clearer identity that Swatch gives Omega:
"An ongoing quest for perfection
A Swiss brand founded in 1848, Omega is synonymous with watchmaking excellence, precision and innovation and has introduced many of the industry's most groundbreaking technologies, including the revolutionary Co-Axial escapement.
In 2015, Omega worked alongside the Swiss Federal Institute of Metrology (METAS), to create the Master Chronometer certification, the Swiss watch industry's highest standard of testing. The first watch to emerge from this rigorous new testing was the Globemaster.
The brand is also defined by its pioneering spirit. In 1965, the Speedmaster was officially certified by NASA for all manned missions. Omega watches accompanied astronauts on all six lunar landings and remain an official part of NASA kit.
Omega is actively involved in charitable projects, including Good Planet Foundation and the Orbis International Flying Eye Hospital.
No other brand is more connected to sports timekeeping. Omega has served as Official Timekeeper at 27 Olympic Games."
Ergo: It's the structure behind branding that makes it effective.
I think those roundtable participants in the post are generally wrong, confused, and incoherent.
One person says they would only have two watch lines (divided by Elite and El Primero movements) and each of those would have three subdivisions (retro, sporty, and avante-garde). That's an idiotic way of attempting to say that they want to have three lines and obviously each line contains examples of each of Zenith's two primary movements. Their avant-garde line is even for testing bleeding edge developments, which is difficult to see how it would fit in with their two primary workhorse movements. Honestly, do they think before they open their mouths?
Another guy says they have three options available - faithful re-issues, brand/celebrity limited editions, or modern re-interpretations and they can't possibly do them all. Zenith is owned by LVMH and has vast resources, of course they can do all three and that's what they have been doing.
There's also the ludicrious suggestion that Zenith should offer a separate line of ladies' watches that don't focus on small size or feminine colours. Excuse me, how exactly is Zenith well placed to do this? LVMH already owns Chaumet, Bulgari, Tag Heuer, LV, and Dior. Why should Zenith go on to make a unique/different ladies' watch collection if there is zero brand heritage behind doing so and they only have two non-quartz calibres? The same lunatic then goes on to say that Zenith should pursue jump-hours, retrogrades, and full digital dates.... oh and an alarm, like Zenith didn't already mkae the doublematic.
But the most idiotic suggestion of all has to be the complaints about the open-dial. You're selling mechanical watches as a brand, and Zenith cemented the open-heart el-primero design from the 2000s. I'm a die-hard Zenith fan and the Chronomaster 1969 Open is the quintissential Zenith watch that I choose to own because it melds the El Primero movement, the 1969-era Tricolor with the 60s-70s aesthetic, and the most successful recent modern Zenith design element. They even complain that the movements don't have "chamfered edges, unique wheel spokes" in the open heart models.... but the silicon escapement wheel does have a unique design and chamfering is just not part of the El Primero movement design. The window does have chamfered edges for what it's worth.
Frankly the only sensible comments in the entire article are:
-Reducing number of variations
-Offering some smaller sizes (which is already happening)
If I were CEO, the key things I would do would be:
Restore the organization to be closer to that under Jean Frederic Dufour
That is to say, the design ethic should be the deciding factor for the collection. The Winsor annual calendar does not belong in the Chronomaster collection. It should be with the rest of the watches currently in the 'elite' collection. This collection should be renamed (Classic?) so that it is not contradictory with the movements - the classic chronograph el primero should not be in a collection called 'Elite' when you have a movement called 'Elite'. There isn't actually a problem with having several collections, the problem is when the collections are impossible to understand. For god's sake the ladies' star collection is in the 'pilot' collection now and Stratos models are present in both the Chronomaster and Pilot sections. IWC have an excellent and rational collection system, despite having 6 main lines - I know instantly what each collection represents.
Zenith should re-organize into: Chronomaster, Defy, Stratos, Classic, Pilot, and Academy. If they really, really want to cut down, Stratos can be in the Pilot section and be called 'Pilot Stratos' similar to what IWC does with the Spitfire. Or they can even put it in the Chronomaster series because of the design being rather similar.
In general the asethetic follows like this:
Chronomaster - Late 60s/early 70s retro
Pilot - 1930s era pilots, which is a good way of differentiating Zenith from the WWII era Germanic designs
Classic - 1950s/early 60s classics
Defy - Contemporary
Academy - Anything goes
Cut production
Zenith seem to struggle to move units. Zenith wants to be a luxury brand. If they want to be more desirable as a luxury brand, they should not have so many units that they reliably have 30% off sales.
Focus on the Chronomaster and offer more choice for 38mm/40mm models
The Chronomaster is emblematic of Zenith's revival. It is a good balance of sporty and dressy, it is a good every-day watch, which means it should sell units. It could conceivably be someone's 'only watch'. If my target customers can only think of one watch when I think of 'Zenith', I want it to be the Chronomaster. Zenith also owns this aesthetic right now - Mido, Chronoswiss, and others pushed it first but largely abandoned it. Others are piling in on the retro 60s/70s revival. Zenith can and should stamp its claim on this.
This is the model you want the most options for your customers, and since a huge amount of demand is in Asia now, 38mm watches make sense because Asian's have smaller wrists. If 38mm is too small to sell well universally, then just bloody make a 40mm version - the case is already there for the Espada and Synopsis, just make a new set of dials and drill holes for the pushers.
Place the Pilot as Zenith's 'second' icon
Pushing the Pilot too hard is tricky - it's a very distinctive design and is really very much for the watch enthusiast. This is good, because Zenith is supposed to be an 'insider's' or 'watch nerd's' brand, but I would put Chronomaster first for now. I would also be wary of letting Pilot SKUs proliferate. There should be a big date el primero, a normal sized Elite, a bronze elite, with maybe jumbo versions, and not a huge amount more. Are people really coming to the Zenith pilot series for annual calendars and tourbillons?
Re-orient marketing to focus on watch nerds
Zenith should be capturing watch nerds, not fashionistas or celebrity lovers. The latter group is most decidedly not Zenith's target market and those people will almost always choose something loud and shallow. Zenith should market itself more, but as a company that had the capability to develop a movement which has stood the test of time for 40+ years. They should advertise themselves as the only ones making a 10bps chronograph movement (in any meaningful quantity unlike Breguet and Chopard), advertise the silicon escapement, etc. The Defy is a step in the right direction. This can help them in their ladies' collections too, so that watch nerds will want to buy their ladies Zenith watches as gifts because they can't stand shelling out huge money for quartz Cartiers. Of course 99/100 they'll end up buying a Cartier anyway for the wife, but pushing a Land Rover connection won't even get you 1/100. Zenith should remain a watch-lover's brand.
Instead of blowing money on celebrities or classic cars, or other crap come up with by marketers whose only weapon is age demographics, they should try to connect more with the mechanisms in their marketing. I don't know, like turn up to SalonQP and let people play with the movements like JCL do. That kind of stuff gets you customers for life. LVMH could even advertise it more that Zenith supply Bulgari and Tag Heuer with movements - I doubt it's going to appreciably cost those companies any customers, and any cannibalization would be much cheaper than the equivalent marketing given those two companies' giant head-start in brand awareness.
Other random things:
1. Put 18k rotors back on the 18k models
2. Make a smaller version of the Elite 6150
3. Cut the number of gold and platinum models offered - these are great for margins, but really Zenith's target demographic probably focus on steel watches
4. Unless academy and tourbillon pieces are selling very well, I probably would scale back
5. I'm not sure I would have pushed for a 100th second movement for the Defy... I agree it makes sense for LVMH to put it with Zenith rather than Tag Heuer, but I seriously wonder about the longevity.
6. Zenith's approach to ladies' watches is bang on the money with the current 'Elite' models. Where else do you get ladies watches with genuine movement credentials and classic designs? I'd probably kill off the Star models because they're ugly and push marketing on the other ladies models.
7. Bring back Striking 10th
8. Axe the rolling stones crap, it's really not the target audience at all
9. I'd probably axe Stratos unless it's selling strongly. The sports watch market is way too competitive, and Defy is far more unique.
From a "mug punter" POV, Zenith should stop producing the constant stream of fugly open dial / skeleton pieces and definitely ditch the Rolling Stones connection. The Zenith design team are clearly trying to create something "different" from the mainstream brands but a lot of their current offerings just put me off the brand.
Sent from my Vodafone Smart ultra 6 using TZ-UK mobile app
What Bogatir writes appeals to me, Omega has effectively been saved by the Speedmaster (whoever decided not to bin the professional was a genius) and to an extent the Seamaster range. Otherwise it may have ended up some shell of a company with interesting vintage to pick over.
Perhaps they should take a leaf out of Omega and even look at Tag to a degree in that a Zenithmania (Omega Style) auction with a host of Primero's, Defy's and various rare Diver models could drum up the business. Look at the way Heuer is so hot at the moment. Whereas vintage El Primeros look very very good value in comparison.
The point about TAG is they are starting to do work around being a custodian of Heuer and I've heard some good things about their service and restoration. I believe Tag are starting on a journey of maturity and gaining slow acceptance. Zenith have the tricky business of embracing the past whilst being relevant for today. I think they really do need to break out of watch nerd circles though to keep themselves viable.
I have become an 'accidental' fan, because I have a beautiful 1970s Zenith, which somehow led me to the recent 'Classic' chronometer, and then the retro El Tipo CP chronometer. Both 36000 beat. Lovely watches. But Zenith lack focus, and need a clear vision, probably based on classic designs . But it is going be a hard slog. I doubt the parent company has the patience.
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Your TAG reference is really insightful. Jean-Claude Biver has said at some point that Tag Heuer is now positioning itself as the entry level luxury brand. Like you say; by cultivating the boom that vintage Heuer has brought about it might spill over on TAG (and if someone can explain the TAG-hate that many feel I'd appreciate it). It would be interesting to know how much he values the nerd's sentiments around the brand. It makes me wonder what Biver would choose to do at Zenith? He did marvels at both Omega and Hublot and now he's giving TAG some shine.
When it comes to branding the watch industry is such an amazing little pond to study! The companies have little room to maneuvre and differentiate themselves technically. Basically all they have to work with are brand values.
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They should get Hodinkee to sort out the rest of their models, they seemed to be able to identify the chrono they should have been making but weren't easily enough. Now Zenith offers a similar model but the grey Hodinkee LE remains the best colour option of one of their few chronos in the right size, while Zenith are stuck with brown and blue. They are also one of those brands that could be producing a credible Calatrava alternative but somehow manages not to. They've got some nearly great watches in the range, along with a lot of fluff, but there's usually one element that puts you off. They could start with fixing what they have and offering a better size range, before needing to reinvent the wheel.
I would love a 38mm tri colour at 56% discount
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Quick question regarding Defy 21, I'm new to watch world and I've never seen a 1/100 chronograph like this. Just wondering what affect it has on the movement, does it wear out more or it just moves quicker and that's it?
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