Reply With QuoteI believe so although Simon Freese will confirm shortly once he has had the back off. Either way it's a special watch to me and my dad!Originally Posted by Shrimper
Recent: What is "vintage"?.
Old: What defines 'vintage'?.
Then there is:
I believe so although Simon Freese will confirm shortly once he has had the back off. Either way it's a special watch to me and my dad!
FYI I had a bid on this today, but it sold at auction for £16,000 (plus 20% fees). It's a 2998-3
Auctioneers estimate was £800 haha
With the alpha hands, very nice. Nice windfall for an ignorant auctioneer then!
Fwiw... I have this strap on my vintage Luxor Supercompressor. Good value, well made, suits the vintage look IMO. And you don't look at the tangs when on your wrist, do you?The buckle is not to my taste either, but might it do a job until you get the one you really want?
Here's an update, Simon Freese has been a pleasure to deal with throughout the process, calling up to update me and discuss how to approach the work.
He's just sent through these photos and we will hopefully pick it up from his workshop in the next couple of weeks. What do you think? I'm really pleased.
Watch looks fantastic and great how it's passed through the family. A Speedmaster will be my next watch but will probably be a newer model
Did the age get confirmed in the end or have I missed it?
Thanks!
Not sure actually, I've asked and have asked for a photo of the inside of the caseback.
Looking great, bet you can't wait to get it back on the wrist. It would be nice to get a exact date on it too with the serial off the movement. I would get a extract of the archive to go with too myself :-)
In case (hoho) of interest. Quite why jewellers have to graffiti the inside I don't know but at least they didn't cause any damage over the years.
Not sure about the extract, it's quite expensive for what it is. Maybe I'll get it for my dad's birthday but he's not that bothered.
Michael Young. Though I recall that in forum discussions there is somebody in the UK who has also performed wonders to revive old, tired bracelets. That name escapes me.
Update, the Speedmaster has arrived back from Simon Freese. What do you think?
Perfect. Wear it and pass it on to your son.
Well done, Simon has done an exceptional job there. Your markers were all fuzzy before the watch went off, Simon has added a sharpness to the edges and it looks much better for it.
I see you have had it confirmed that it is a 105.003-64, the same as mine. They are unique in that the cases are slightly different to the 105.003-63 and 105.003-65 and have no bevel edge as such. The link below makes interesting reading and plenty of images of people with a similar watch.
https://omegaforums.net/threads/spee...-owners.45695/
The hands on yours also look much better now that Simon has matched them to the dial markers.
My watch is still with Simon, seems to be taking forever and now he is saying 3 months for all work on his website.
You need to order an Extract from the Archives.
Here are a few images of the great man that your watch is named after, including one of the famous space walk. You have a truely historic watch - enjoy.
Last edited by Wallasey Runner; 20th July 2017 at 15:12.
The 3 months is purely for new jobs.
Just had an invoice for a Connie from him, 5 weeks to the day, exactly as per estimate.
I did speak to him on Monday and he was hopeful of this week. In the meantime I have been gathering other bits and bobs, never ends this vintage malarkey. Be nice to see the watch again though...
Yes I'm very pleased. Also reassuring to know it will hopefully run for another fifty years now.
Thanks for that link, very interesting to note how unique it is.
I have ordered the extract from the archives, I wonder whether it will reveal anything particularly intriguing.
Serial number's on the escape wheel bridge, should be able to estimate the date from that number to within 1 year. Correlation tables are available and they're unambiguous for that era; in later years different runs of numbers were assigned to different model ranges and it gets complicated. Not an exact science but it's what everyone accepts as correct unless there's paperwork to the contrary. Sometimes a watch was assembled up to 2 years before it was sold, or more in some cases. Were the serial numbers issued in batches?.....who knows! There's also the slim possibility that the escape qwheel bridge has been swapped but it's unlikely, it isn`t a part that deteriorates. An unscrupulous seller could swap this part to deceive a prospective buyer that it's a 'birth-year' watch but again it's unlikely.
As far as I`m aware there's no serial number on the case or caseback with these, certainly isn`t on the Omegas I`ve handled from that era.
Vintage Speedys aren`t my thing, but given the family link and obvious sentimental value I can see the attraction with this one. It should be good for a long while, it's been to the top man!
Paul
The serial number is in the movement, but that doesn't give the full story depending on how long it sat around for before being put in a case and assembled. Mine is a 22m serial number, that most tables show as 1965 and the Extract of the Archives shows a production date of Jan 1966, which I am happy with.
I think that is as good as it gets, some pattern and logic to the information that you have.
I have the serial number from Simon and that's what I've submitted to Omega for the extract so we'll see what it produces.
Mine is 28m if that helps?
Link to Serial Quick Reference.
It will be interesting to see what comes back.
Wow, according to the charts that is a 1969 watch. It has the 321 movement, so all good there. It does say on Speedmaster101 that the 105.003s were sold right up to 1969 and they ran concurrent with subsequent models. The story is that they were struggling to sell them in the end because people wanted to buy the professional dial version.
It would also suggest that the correct bracelet for your watch is 1035 with 506 end links.
Last edited by Wallasey Runner; 20th July 2017 at 17:50.
That's a useful table, see link for a scalable version.
This one had a bracelet from late 1961, is a 2998-3 which were made up to 1962 and was sold in April 1964!
Amazing, looks factory fresh! Must have had some restoration done?
Thanks for all the tips re dates and the bracelet. Simon did say it was very common to fit these models with the bracelet mine has now.
One owner from new and a number of Omega services. The last being in October 2015.
It looks really nice but totally ruined in comparison to your more original models.
I would disagree Dave, yes you cannot compare it side by side with an untouched example, but many vintage watches undergo service replacements, which is what yours has become.
At the end of the day, it is a gorgeous watch, pre-moon and looks the business and it is even picking up compliments here amongst WIS people. In the real world it is a genuine 1960s Speedmaster - end of.
You seriously should buy this watch whilst you have the chance.
The chart shows you what it would have left the factory with, but what Simon is saying is that yours has the correct bracelet that Omega would have used as a service replacement. It is therefore correct.
Most people regard bracelets as interchangeable bits of kit and it is not the same as a changed dial etc. Sure, people will hunt out original bracelets for completeness, but they probably don't get used a lot. Just a nice to have as part of the package.
Don't get me wrong Ken, it's a really nice watch and I'd love to keep it but, as you know, I agreed to sell it for a friend.
I've already had an offer of £5k for it so it's clearly not without value.
I don't doubt it Dave and that I suppose that is my point. £5k seems a little on the low side. It's difficult to guess what is worth but if it was still an untouched 2998-3 you would be close to £20k. Equally, a 1968 watch, which tend to be the transitional models with a don insert must be £7k to £10k or even more these days.
As yours is a mismatch between the two most people would want a bit knocked off, so my best guess is somewhere between £6k and £7k and a bit more of you include the 1035 bracelet without the end links, so perhaps £7.5k to £8k So far. Factor in recent service history and the lovely pre-professional dial (even if it turns out to be a service replacement dial) and I will stick my neck out out and say £8k all in. Allow a bit of haggling and you should be looking for a £7.5k sale.
Happy to corrected if anyone thinks this is way out.
Thanks for your comments Ken, I really had no idea that it'd be worth that much!
The honest answer Dave is that I don't really know, it is just a guess based on comparing details of the watch it originally was compared with the watch it has became after the service replacement work.
It hopefully gives you a price band to consider rather than an actual price and as we know, if someone is willing to pay a price within range and fees and messing around can be avoided hopefully a deal can be agreed. Try SC, I am sure people on here would be interested.
It's against the rules Ken, it's not my watch.
Sorry Dave, yes. You could always ask the boss for a dispensation in this case in return for a donation to the FR if it sells.
An update, I ordered the extract from the archives from Omega and sadly they responded to say that it wasn't possible to find the history or information or had become illegible over time. Pity as I was intrigued to find the origins.
Sorry to hear that.
Ah well, still love the watch. Are you pleased with yours now it's back from Simon? Or is it straight off to SC?!
Silly question!
In all honesty I am considering it. It's been like doing a jigsaw puzzle putting all the pieces together. I now have the Extract, an original bracelet with the correct end links and it is fresh from a service with an 18 month warranty on it and the hands have been sorted and the don insert is on the watch with a brand new service replacement if someone preferred the newer clean look.
I have been wearing my Moonphase since it arrived and it has left me questioning what to do with older watch. The big problem is putting a price on it. Researching on here I suspect that a lot of people still have it in their heads that these are £4k watches, but on the Omega Forum decent examples are being listed in the low teens. One this week sold for just under £13k without the correct bracelet, although the don insert was better than mine.
It's a tricky one as you can't really do trades as most people with newer watches don't like vintage and vice versa so I can't image anyone with a new SD or Daytona wanting to do a trade.
I am waiting for one piece of the jigsaw to arrive then I can set the watch up on the bracelet and take some snaps.
Decisions, decisions.
Not meaning this disrespectfully and without knowing the full history, so this may be a more general question not relating to your actual watch, but although I appreciate the Ed White resurgence in price recently, why do people get excited when bracelets, hands, bezels and often boxes and the likes are not even original to the watch? Accepting they are 'from the period', but to me, the extract adds complete false security - yes it says when the watch was made, but certain buyers would view it almost like a guarantee of originality, when many aren't.
Clearly when talking about 50 year old watches, unless you are very lucky and buy from the original owner, putting together any history at all on the watch helps. For starters you want to ensure that your movement actually stated life in the correct model Speedmaster and wasn't lifted out of a Seamaster, so an Extract from the Archives will tell you how the watch started life, the date of production and where it was shipped to.
Any other documents will help. I have a 1960s insurance valuation document that lists the model number and movement serial number, so that that's two pieces of evidence to support the Watch and my serial number is in the accepted range for the model number and the date of production is consistent with what you would expect.
Mine came with a vintage red box, outer white box, red wallet and a 'you and your Omega' booklet. They look period correct, but can anyone say they are original to the watch - clearly no. I did a thread on the Omega Forum with a few pics asking if my bits and bobs were consistent with the watch and several people responded that they were spot on. My white outer box has made in England on it, so I expected to see a UK sale on the E from the A and indeed it was a UK sale. Little things like this help build a picture that perhaps someone else with just a Watch head cannot do.
There are numerous tables and charts showing what bracelet would have been on the watch when new and if you can source one it does indeed add value to the package.
The hands on my watch when I got it were not only service replacement, but the wrong hands, the Chrono hand should have had a spear tip. The advice from people was to source some correct hands and send them to Simon Freese to be aged and matched to the dial. This has now been done and the watch looks better for it.
We see the same with Rolex, people want a fat font insert, a superdome crystal and 9315 folded link bracelet. It's not a cheap process, but hopefully the watch is far more desirable than one without those things if you move it on.
Last edited by Wallasey Runner; 28th July 2017 at 19:45.
Understood, but when pricing, one should not get an original Ed White confused with one which has been artificially aged to look like one.
On here with all the journeybfornall to see, that's fine, but how many are getting a put together watch with a certificate which really only matches the case and movement?
Doesn't work for me.
I suspect your grail watch doesn't really exist. Virtually every vintage watch will have had something done to it during the course of its life. Hands, crowns, pushers get changed on a regular basis as part of the service process. I don't die in a ditch about crowns and pushers etc as they are fundamental to the functioning of the Watch, but in your scenario the watch is destroyed, yes?
With any rare watch you want a good original case that is not over polished, the correct dial that is also in good condition (the dial alone is a huge percentage of the overall value) and the correct movement. Original hands are nice, but I say to you - how do you know they are the original hands. Many unscrupulous dealers will match hands to dial to get that perfect look that the buyers want.
Okay, I had a choice. Brand new bright white hands that glow like a torch on a 50 year old dial would look horribly wrong. Simon is one of the world's top authorities on vintage Speedmasters and if he has done the work collectors and buyers are generally happy.
It is each to own, but expecting a 50 year old watch to be 100% original and in perfect condition is highly unlikely.
Decent dealers and honest sellers will provide chapter and verse of what they know about their watch and it is up to a buyer to make an informed decision.
Last edited by Wallasey Runner; 28th July 2017 at 20:03.
Despite being a new member, I am under no illusion - which is why my grail is a new watch. I've done the vintage thing, but I think it has become 'false' over the last ten years or so. People seem satisfied to add this and fix that to get something they then call (for example) and Ed White, when it's perhaps more a homage albeit with mostly* oem parts.
*faux aged lume is certainly not an original oem part.
Be a vintage collector by all means, but make it a challenge and find something original.
To illustrate, someone posted this image on the Omega Forum of a watch that they are considering and they want some advice.
At first glance a lovely looking watch, but the dial and hands on Original Speedmasters were made by different manufactures and the chances of them aging at exactly the same rate is probably a million to one - so has someone been working their magic on this one.
Buyer beware.
The lume work there reminds me of something
The watch has come back from service and some gentle restoration by Simon Freese.
Last edited by Wallasey Runner; 9th August 2017 at 17:33.
Actually looks great on the bracelet, what's it like to wear on it?
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