Any solicitors in the George?

[Franky Four Fingers]

On another forum for us greasy spanner flingers we have an ongoing issue where a small group of users believe that if you were to fit a part which was supplied by a customer, that part then subsequently fails then you can be liable for the whole job.

So joe bloggs has an engine issue and you find it needs a new engine, you quote for a new engine however customers is skint and wants to save money and so sources a 2nd hand engine and asks you to fit it.
Its a huge job, you fit the engine and when starting it you find it has an horrific knock. There are cases (apparently) that the customer has seeked legal advise, taken the garage to court and found in favour of the car owner due to the garage being the experts and should have known there was a problem.

I cant find any info either way and struggle to tie up SOGA with this specific senario.
Can anybody shed some light?

FFF

Edit.....it doesn't have to be an engine, insert any car part

[kevkojak]

I agree, it would be the garages fault.

I have no legal expertise, but my Dad is an electrician and has a bad experience under his belt regarding this which luckily the firm he was working for was liable for.
He was recently asked to quote for a job (fitting some sockets in a new-build) and the home owner wanted to save some money by supplying his own parts. Of course he said a very firm NO. As a professional how do you know where the parts are from, what quality they are, if they are suitable for purpose etc? The cheapest items on the shelf are usually the cheapest for a reason - crap quality.

The other semi-related example I can think of is food prep.
My ex employer removed all ovens, toasters, microwaves etc (they were essential for the night staff as well) because of a case of food poisoning which the canteen franchise ended up being held responsible for.

[Franky Four Fingers]

I agree, it would be the garages fault.

I have no legal expertise, but my Dad is an electrician and has a bad experience under his belt regarding this which luckily the firm he was working for was liable for.
He was recently asked to quote for a job (fitting some sockets in a new-build) and the home owner wanted to save some money by supplying his own parts. Of course he said a very firm NO. As a professional how do you know where the parts are from, what quality they are, if they are suitable for purpose etc? The cheapest items on the shelf are usually the cheapest for a reason - crap quality.

The other semi-related example I can think of is food prep.
My ex employer removed all ovens, toasters, microwaves etc (they were essential for the night staff as well) because of a case of food poisoning which the canteen franchise ended up being held responsible for.

I'm unable to find written proof or anything which ties that in with the scenario.

[Dave O'Sullivan]

I'd say if the fault is with the part, it's down to the customer. If it's the fitting, it's down the firm. However, it might not be the case in the eyes of the law. Simple way to avoid the problem though, I don't fit customer supplied parts. If they're supplying their own parts, the chances are they're trying to save money which means they'll be crap. Or used. Or both. If my names on a job, I like to know it's all down to me.

[Franky Four Fingers]

I'd say if the fault is with the part, it's down to the customer. If it's the fitting, it's down the firm. However, it might not be the case in the eyes of the law. Simple way to avoid the problem though, I don't fit customer supplied parts. If they're supplying their own parts, the chances are they're trying to save money which means they'll be crap. Or used. Or both. If my names on a job, I like to know it's all down to me.

Yes that seems the best advise however a lot off people still fit customers parts especially if they don't want to lose the job. There seems lots of anecdotal evidence with very little substance to back it up.

[soundood]

yep, same with electrics, customer supplied part fails and burns down the house killing all in it, then I would be held accountable, until proven otherwise.

simples

[Chris_in_the_UK]

Tough one - I have been involved in debates on car specific fora in the past where this has been raised and discussed. The consensus seems to be that it is a very risky route to take and the best option (with new parts) is to price match or walk away - if secondhand parts are involved it's not worth the risk.

[Franky Four Fingers]

yep, same with electrics, customer supplied part fails and burns down the house killing all in it, then I would be held accountable, until proven otherwise.

simples

The finger of blaim I'm sure would be placed upon you however if the part you fitted was legit and not substandard, it was fitted correctly yet proved to be the cause, you think you would still be accountable?

[Franky Four Fingers]

Tough one - I have been involved in debates on car specific fora in the past where this has been raised and discussed. The consensus seems to be that it is a very risky route to take and the best option (with new parts) is to price match or walk away - if secondhand parts are involved it's not worth the risk.

Really difficult and as you say it's the best advise to walk away and fit your own parts. Just sometimes though 2nd hand parts are the only option especially with a lot of plus 10 year old cars where parts sometimes go obsolete. Land Rover D2 point in case, quite a few parts for these are obsolete and so 2nd hand it is

[Saint-Just]

I don't know if getting the customer to sign a paper waiving his rights if the part itself fails (i.e. the expertise is not in question) would stand up in court.
One of the issue could be that non original parts need to be 'adapted' to fit, in which case the garage becomes 100% responsible.

[Chris_in_the_UK]

Really difficult and as you say it's the best advise to walk away and fit your own parts. Just sometimes though 2nd hand parts are the only option especially with a lot of plus 10 year old cars where parts sometimes go obsolete. Land Rover D2 point in case, quite a few parts for these are obsolete and so 2nd hand it is

Perhaps a 'disclaimer' is the way to go referring to the parts and inherent lack of guarantee?

[ralphy]

... customers is skint and wants to save money and so sources a 2nd hand engine and asks you to fit it.
Its a huge job, you fit the engine and when starting it you find it has an horrific knock.

ISTM that the garage (in this scenario) shouldn't be held responsible as the part provided has the fault - and there was no way of knowing that prior to fitting.

Had it been a new part and supplied by the manufacturer would the garage be held responsible?

R

[Dave+63]

Really difficult and as you say it's the best advise to walk away and fit your own parts. Just sometimes though 2nd hand parts are the only option especially with a lot of plus 10 year old cars where parts sometimes go obsolete. Land Rover D2 point in case, quite a few parts for these are obsolete and so 2nd hand it is

There's a difference between second hand parts and customer supplied parts.

If second hand parts are fitted, they should really be bought by the garage and from a known source. That way there is a paper trail should the part be faulty.

[Franky Four Fingers]

ISTM that the garage (in this scenario) shouldn't be held responsible as the part provided has the fault - and there was no way of knowing that prior to fitting.

Had it been a new part and supplied by the manufacturer would the garage be held responsible?

R

Unless it was fitted incorrectly then no.....good point.

[bloater]

At work when we do something similar we write on the invoice, fitted customers own parts, and list what they are, alongside labour only.
If the part fails because it's sub standard then tough but if it fails due to our fitment then we will rectify it.

[Morning Wood]

Ask the customer to sign a disclaimer which states there is no concequential loss for non oem parts.

[Gestarp]

maybe if garages stopped increasing the cost of parts for calling the local motor factors and getting the part delivered. customers might feel they are not being ripped off and then have no need to source the part themselves

[soundood]

The finger of blaim I'm sure would be placed upon you however if the part you fitted was legit and not substandard, it was fitted correctly yet proved to be the cause, you think you would still be accountable?

yes, maybe not fully but it could open me up to an element of maybe it was, or maybe not him, I would end up taking some of the blame as a lot of the time these things are not conclusive, and some element of installation failure/incorrect fitting would still be in play,

I very rarely fit customer supplied fittings anymore, unless it is on my advise, its just not worth the hassle, if not something serious, it just fails and they hold you accountable, that then involves a waste of time return to fix.

[Dave O'Sullivan]

maybe if garages stopped increasing the cost of parts for calling the local motor factors and getting the part delivered. customers might feel they are not being ripped off and then have no need to source the part themselves

I'm sure that'll work.

[Gestarp]

I'm sure that'll work.

it would for me

[Chris_in_the_UK]

maybe if garages stopped increasing the cost of parts for calling the local motor factors and getting the part delivered. customers might feel they are not being ripped off and then have no need to source the part themselves

This is mostly an internet effect - people get a quote for repair work from a garage and they look on the internet and find big motor factors selling stuff massively cheaper than they have been quoted.

[Gestarp]

This is mostly an internet effect - people get a quote for repair work from a garage and they look on the internet and find big motor factors selling stuff massively cheaper than they have been quoted.

normally the same factors the garage has just called for the same part

[mickylall]

maybe if garages stopped increasing the cost of parts for calling the local motor factors and getting the part delivered. customers might feel they are not being ripped off and then have no need to source the part themselves

So anytime you want work doing on your car you source your own parts and fit them yourself?
My garage uses the local motor factors and after he fits them I have 12 months warranty should anything fail, I'm happy to pay his price for parts as he has overheads to pay. Do you do that with everything you buy? If so you wouldn't buy anything from a shop

[Captain Morgan]

So anytime you want work doing on your car you source your own parts and fit them yourself?
My garage uses the local motor factors and after he fits them I have 12 months warranty should anything fail, I'm happy to pay his price for parts as he has overheads to pay. Do you do that with everything you buy? If so you wouldn't buy anything from a shop

So your chap doesn't charge for his time diagnosing the issue or fitting the replacement parts then?

[Gestarp]

So anytime you want work doing on your car you source your own parts and fit them yourself?
My garage uses the local motor factors and after he fits them I have 12 months warranty should anything fail, I'm happy to pay his price for parts as he has overheads to pay. Do you do that with everything you buy? If so you wouldn't buy anything from a shop

what massive overheads does he have on ordering a part from a factors that i can also order from ?

fair enough he makes a call and gets it delivered(usually free) it takes 2 mins a slight increase is acceptable but getting your pants took down is a piss take.

you don't have to agree with me its your choice if you're happy with that arrangement then carry on.
always love the they have overheads equation, if it was proportionate i could accepted that. when its an excuse to fleece then i'll choose to buy my own parts.

im in the fortunate position that i have a mechanic who does the work on my cars and adds nothing to the parts(he orders them for me and gets them delivered free) and charges a very reasonable labour charge i won't be taking by business anywhere else


your comment on buying from shops if i can buy the same and product from a different source or going direct myself then i will do that I'm not in the habit of throwing money away

[JasonM]

I've had a recent experience that puts both side of the perspective, I have a VW CC and a few weeks ago the front left Zenon headlight went intermittent, it was due a service at VW a few days later so asked them to look at it, the diagnosis wasn't good, it's not the bulb, it's the control unit and the front bumper needs to be removed, 2 hours labour plus the unit was going to be £600 + .
Not great news, I elect not to have the work done and got in touch with a local indy who was going to do a cambelt change on the car soon ( the service was part of a VW plan )
He quoted me £260 for the part ( he buys from VW parts dept ) plus a hour and a half labour so the bill was down to £360 ish.
I then hit the internet, found the part number of the unit and eventuallly found a distributor, double checked with them with my reg ( crossover year ) and bought it. Explained this to the Indy and Chris I could tell wasn't enthusiastic due to experience of poor quality internet sourced customer supplied parts. I took it in and he took the old one off and we compared the 2 parts, my sourced one was identical, not just the shape and size but down to the VAG marks, codes everything, it was exactly the same part, not a pattern, same manufacturer ( Mitsubishi electrics ) .
He was impressed and asked for the supplier to add to his database.
The price for that part was £54 delivered.
He did the bumper off / on job in 50 minutes so the £600 VW job cost me £110 total.

The kicker though was not long after the headlight started playing up again, I tried a bulb change ( £20 ) and that was the problem.
Never trusting the VW service dept agin.

[Franky Four Fingers]

what massive overheads does he have on ordering a part from a factors that i can also order from ?

fair enough he makes a call and gets it delivered(usually free) it takes 2 mins a slight increase is acceptable but getting your pants took down is a piss take.

you don't have to agree with me its your choice if you're happy with that arrangement then carry on.
always love the they have overheads equation, if it was proportionate i could accepted that. when its an excuse to fleece then i'll choose to buy my own parts.

im in the fortunate position that i have a mechanic who does the work on my cars and adds nothing to the parts(he orders them for me and gets them delivered free) and charges a very reasonable labour charge i won't be taking by business anywhere else


your comment on buying from shops if i can buy the same and product from a different source or going direct myself then i will do that I'm not in the habit of throwing money away

Firstly, how do you know your mechanic doesn't put anything on top of the parts, secondly why do you deem it a rip off if a garage charges you a recommended retail price for something?

In the trade, Euro car parts are known for their special weekends where retail punters can buy parts cheaper than the garage......great that isn't it, Joe Bloggs can go in and buy it cheaper than someone who's purchasing £10000 a month from them.

[Gestarp]

Firstly, how do you know your mechanic doesn't put anything on top of the parts, secondly why do you deem it a rip off if a garage charges you a recommended retail price for something?

In the trade, Euro car parts are known for their special weekends where retail punters can buy parts cheaper than the garage......great that isn't it, Joe Bloggs can go in and buy it cheaper than someone who's purchasing £10000 a month from them.

because i know him very well and he shows me the invoice and the old parts that he's taken off. hope that clarifies that burning issue for you
why shouldn't joe bloggs be able to buy stuff cheaper ? and I'm sure the fellow purchasing £10,000 a month has a trade account and already receives a discount. plus makes up for it in the surcharge added for the hard task of calling for the parts :nod:

I'm not in the business of lining folks pockets unnecessarily,if i find a better deal else where regardless of the service or product i will always take the better option. I'm in the business of paying my own mortgage and bills not other peoples

[Franky Four Fingers]

because i know him very well and he shows me the invoice and the old parts that he's taken off. hope that clarifies that burning issue for you
why shouldn't joe bloggs be able to buy stuff cheaper ? and I'm sure the fellow purchasing £10,000 a month has a trade account and already receives a discount. plus makes up for it in the surcharge added for the hard task of calling for the parts :nod:

I'm not in the business of lining folks pockets unnecessarily,if i find a better deal else where regardless of the service or product i will always take the better option. I'm in the business of paying my own mortgage and bills not other peoples

Congratulations, you'll do really well here.You sound like an ideal customer that we're all looking for.

All the best...probably see you in the bear pit.

[mickylall]

Got to be trolling now, nobody is that stupid

[Chris_in_the_UK]

Got to be trolling now, nobody is that stupid

Ah, not so fast Micky.....

[Dave O'Sullivan]

because i know him very well and he shows me the invoice and the old parts that he's taken off. hope that clarifies that burning issue for you
why shouldn't joe bloggs be able to buy stuff cheaper ? and I'm sure the fellow purchasing £10,000 a month has a trade account and already receives a discount. plus makes up for it in the surcharge added for the hard task of calling for the parts :nod:

I'm not in the business of lining folks pockets unnecessarily,if i find a better deal else where regardless of the service or product i will always take the better option. I'm in the business of paying my own mortgage and bills not other peoples

Perhaps I can make a suggestion?
Subscribe to Autodata online. They list repair times for all popular vehicles. Once you have that data, you can also monitor his labour times he charges to make sure he isn't rounding them up to the nearest hour.
You know, just to make sure he really hates you :)

[Gestarp]

Congratulations, you'll do really well here.You sound like an ideal customer that we're all looking for.

All the best...probably see you in the bear pit.

lol i don't buy watches, the only watch i own is a 20 year old accurist that has sat in a drawer for 19 and a half of them so I'm not the type of customer folk will be looking for. i do look in sc but cant see me ever buying.

i take it that my comments don't please you much, so i'll surmise you're in the garage trade. i don't mind what you charge, so you shouldn't mind where i take my car maintenance or how i go about it.

i come from a forum that has very little rules so i cant see the bear pit being any worse than there

see you there

[Franky Four Fingers]

Perhaps I can make a suggestion?
Subscribe to Autodata online. They list repair times for all popular vehicles. Once you have that data, you can also monitor his labour times he charges to make sure he isn't rounding them up to the nearest hour.
You know, just to make sure he really hates you :)

Pmsl

[Chris_in_the_UK]

lol i don't buy watches, the only watch i own is a 20 year old accurist that has sat in a drawer for 19 and a half of them so I'm not the type of customer folk will be looking for. i do look in sc but cant see me ever buying.

i take it that my comments don't please you much, so i'll surmise you're in the garage trade. i don't mind what you charge, so you shouldn't mind where i take my car maintenance or how i go about it.

i come from a forum that has very little rules so i cant see the bear pit being any worse than there

see you there

So why exactly are you a member of a long standing watch forum?

[Franky Four Fingers]

lol i don't buy watches, the only watch i own is a 20 year old accurist that has sat in a drawer for 19 and a half of them so I'm not the type of customer folk will be looking for. i do look in sc but cant see me ever buying.

i take it that my comments don't please you much, so i'll surmise you're in the garage trade. i don't mind what you charge, so you shouldn't mind where i take my car maintenance or how i go about it.

i come from a forum that has very little rules so i cant see the bear pit being any worse than there

see you there

[Gestarp]

Got to be trolling now, nobody is that stupid

why would i be trolling ?
i made a comment in a thread in an open part of the forum, just because it doesn't fit with some members way of thinking is not my lookout

[Franky Four Fingers]

I was going to ask the same question and then couldn't be bothered....what Chris said.

[Gestarp]

Perhaps I can make a suggestion?
Subscribe to Autodata online. They list repair times for all popular vehicles. Once you have that data, you can also monitor his labour times he charges to make sure he isn't rounding them up to the nearest hour.
You know, just to make sure he really hates you :)

thanks for the suggestion but i'll pass

[Gestarp]

So why exactly are you a member of a long standing watch forum?

i bought the missus a watch and stayed for the craic

[Chris_in_the_UK]

i bought the missus a watch and stayed for the craic

How did you manage that if you do not have access to Sales Corner?

[Dave O'Sullivan]

thanks for the suggestion but i'll pass

Probably wise, it's £80 a month. Might negate any gains to be made. Perhaps a hidden camera under the car so you can measure the actual time he was working on it might be a better route. You don't want to be paying his expensive charges whilst he's away from your car taking his morning dump.

[Saint-Just]

And it's not your first question about cars and mechanics either. Is he really your friend? And if so why bring it here?

[Gestarp]

How did you manage that if you do not have access to Sales Corner?

it wasn't from here

[Franky Four Fingers]

thanks for the suggestion but i'll pass

Yeh, I guess you can't get that discounted can you?

[Chris_in_the_UK]

it wasn't from here

But you said you 'stayed for the craic' which implies it was?

[Gestarp]

And it's not your first question about cars and mechanics either. Is he really your friend? And if so why bring it here?

no its not. yes he is. its a forum

[Gestarp]

But you said you 'stayed for the craic' which implies it was?

the watch i bought my missus was defiantly not from here. i wasn't even a member when i bought it.

[Saint-Just]

That doesn't answer the 3rd question and I believe many here, including me, don't believe you on the second question either. Or, to be more precise, he may be your friend but I very much doubt the reverse is true.
One for the list.

[mickylall]

Gestarp " come on I'm taking the family out to that nice restaurant for a slap up meal"
Mrs Gestarp " brilliant but what's in the box?"
Gestarp " I've got a steak for us all to share at, some mushrooms and potatoes, we'll use their condiments and there's a can of tenants super each"
Gestarp jr under his breath " not this shit again"...