Reply With QuoteHow did they access his bank accounts to do the transfer? And if they could do that, why go through all that rigmarole, why not just transfer straight to themselves in the first place?
A cautionary tale. A neighbour of mine, approaching retirement, has just lost a very significant amount of money to a telephone scam which went like this:
1) His ISP rang to tell him they'd found a virus on his computer (no alarm bells there yet??)
2) Coincidentally, he was just doing a virus scan as he felt the computer was going slow, so went along with it. He opened teamviewer and gave them access (still nothing?)
3) They blanked his screen "while they sorted the problem" (hearing aid batteries ok??)
4) While it was blanked out they moved a significant amount of money from his savings account to his current account.
5) They then told him they'd fixed the problem and were making a refund to him.....
6) Then, oh no, the refund has gone wrong, "I've refunded you too much, I'll lose my job, etc etc, please login to your account you'll see what I've done..."
7) So he duly logs on to his (newly credited account) and sees thousands of pounds just deposited. Little did he know it was his money...
8) They ask if he will refund the amount please - which being an honest and reasonable person he does. Bingo.
The significance is, the bank don't want to know as he authorised it. The police don't want to know as it's probably a bit difficult especially if they're abroad.
Anyone know a good solicitor?
How did they access his bank accounts to do the transfer? And if they could do that, why go through all that rigmarole, why not just transfer straight to themselves in the first place?
That's a difficult one, as he sent the money the bank won't be that interested. The police should get involved but the chances of him getting the money back are very slim.
The odd thing is how did they access his savings account? all my internet banking needs about a million passwords and a card reader to access. How did they do all that?
**someone said the same thing as I was typing this**
That is still fraud though but appreciate it will be difficult to pursue. I've heard of elderly people being duped into making payments over the phone for either false services or ones they don't need. The perpetrators are just scum.
I trust your neighbour has changed any passwords etc.
Cant they follow the trail to the account it went to etc?
I thought this and can only assume he was asked to log in to his bank to make a payment or something so they didn't have to 'break in'.Originally Posted by Brighty
While I have every sympathy for the bloke, you have to be incredibly stupid or slow to fall for this. Or is it trusting? Are the older generation just naturally less prone to suspicion?
Either way, I hate the thieving scum with a passion but suspect they'll never be caught or held to account.
Sounds like an urban myth to me.
If it was possible to move money from one account to another, which I doubt, then it was possible to take the money and they would have done so.
I really don't think there's any truth in this TBH.
Once you're in your own online bank you can transfer money at will between your own accounts with no passwords, hence the savings to the current account. The thieves couldn't transfer the money to their own account because this requires passwords, card readers, codes, etc.
But how did they get into his online banking in the first place?
Just guessing here, but the threshold for securing your own accounts is much lower than a new payee. Presumably once they had control of his PC, they could access his online banking through saved passwords and perform inter-account transfers, but couldn't make a payment to themselves without a hardware authentication check. My bank provides a little chip and pin machine that requires your card, your PIN and a code from the website. This is most likely also why the bank is denying liability for the fraud.
It's not one I've heard about before though. The moral of the story is be very suspicious of anyone that calls you and asks you to do anything on your PC/tablet/phone, etc. It can end badly even without all these extra steps. And sadly, there may be more in store for this chap later, now that his data is compromised and he's possibly on a mugs list. There's also no reason any technical support, anti-virus company, or Microsoft would call out of the blue, but it's understandable that a lot of not-so-tech-savvy people don't know that, thinking it's just good customer service.
What's amazing about these scams is the sheer number of times the line "our system notified us you're having problems with your computer" works, because everyone is having problems with their computer, all the time! It's not actually as big a coincidence as it sounds at first.
It looks like he must have had his on-line banking open/unsecured when he granted remote access.
______
Jim.
They asked him (over the phone) to make a payment to fix his computer so knew he would be in the account (the OP seems to skip this bit but it's the only logical conclusion I can draw).
This was after they'd already been granted access to his PC to 'assess' the problem. Very straightforward but like I said, you'd have to be a few nuggets short of a goldmine to go along with it, but some people are gullible.
" older generation" " approaching retirement"?? so early 60's one assumes. It would seem that the fellow had a PC, internet access and on line banking so hardly living in the past. Sounds like an unfortunate situation but not entirely plausible .
assuming they asked for a bank transfer to pay up front to sort the 'virus' out?
lets say they try this with 20 people at least one or two will leave their online banking logged in after installing the remote access software (which would have a keylogger etc.. perhaps)
poor show
Not entirely plausible? Urban myth? My neighbour just got off the phone to the police and, frankly, doesn't know whether he's shaking with anger or crying with remorse. It's his retirement pot and you're questioning whether it even happened, suggesting it couldn't happen. Beggars believe.
To be honest I wouldn't have bothered posting if I'd predicted that sort of reaction.
I hope those who do believe what I have typed, have managed to extract a timely reminder that this sort of thing is all too easy. He's a computer programmer, has been since the 70s (DOS), highly intelligent (although I grant you that doesn't seem to be much in evidence), computer savvy and literate.
Unfortunately he's also very trusting, a characteristic that appears in short supply.
That's all.
Who does he bank with ?
OP, you're much closer to it than anyone here but read your original post from a remote perspective and you'll see it leaves very many unanswered questions.
I'm not saying it didn't happen and you clearly know that it did but from an outsider's perspective, it sounds rather implausible.
It's not a case of not being trusting, it's a case of trying to understand exactly how this could happen.
Ah, I skipped the 'approaching retirement' and saw it as retired. My bad.
Setting up a new recipient does often require an additional step so that's probably why the transfer was made that way.
In some banks, it could trigger a fraud warning for unusual activity. If he didn't get one then perhaps he makes this kind of transfer regularly, or perhaps some banks provide more support than others.
Either way, it would make a good Sunday broadsheet article - perhaps your neighbour could mention this to his bank manager if they don't want to know about it.
Unfortunate, yes, but is it the bank's fault?
I had one of these on Friday. Told him I only used a smartphone and tablet, no computer. He was puzzled but hung up. Normally I ignore numbers that are 'unavailable' but this time I was bored.
There's a difference between admitting fault and not wanting to know about it. There could be ways the bank could help him reconfigure his account to have more restrictions in place.
WTF these guys need to be brought to justice....b*****ds!!!!
The fraudsters bank yes, for allowing the fraudster to open the account in the first place!
Gutting. Feel for him. There is nothing worse than being conned out of your hard earned money in seconds which probably took him years to accumulate.
I once fell for the old '3 cup trick' on a walkway by a beach in Tenerife. Felt like a right tw@ afterwards. Can't imagine how he feels.
I've had similar calls myself but I know they're scams because they always mention Windows and I don't have any Windows devices. Even when I tell them this they are still very persistent.
You have to be so careful these days. I nearly got duped by someone calling me the day after I'd been burgled pretending to be the Police. My brain was still swimming after the burglary but managed to cotton on before it was too late.
I can't imagine a solicitor being interested in that. The police obviously though.
There is still at least one step missing in the tale though. How did the perpetrators know that the victim would be in an active Internet Banking session? There's no way to make the initial transfer between his own accounts other than via that method.
So many alarm bells should have rang at every stage though. Not least leaving an active banking session open while handing your PC over to someone else...
It's entirely possible to be intelligent and daft as a brush at the same time. I would however question savvy and tech literate!
I'm surprised there are no daily transaction limits in place - they seem to be the default with most Banking providers.
I suspect there's some missing steps too, the scammers must have been in before and used keyboard/password logger software or something like that
refund scams normally work a few days after they call you up and pretend to be from microsoft etc... and then you are not happy as your PC is still slow or whatever and they offer you a refund
I feel for your neighbour, that's an awful thing to happen and I hope he gets somewhere with his bank.
Maybe I'm too cynical, but I refuse to give details out to anyone over the phone, regardless of how convincing they sound (unless I've called them or am expecting a specific call) as I go on the assumption that they are all out to con me. Logic tells me that scammers have to be more and more sophisticated or they would never scam anyone. I've never forgotten a saying that was said to me years a go 'if a thief looks like a thief, they would never do any business'.
This. - If they could log in to his savings account they could have moved the money anywhere. Unless there was a second level of security they were unable to breach.
Normally there is an additional step whereby you have to generate a transaction code on your fob / token / app when you send money to a new payee for the first time. Security you see :)
This is something I just do not understand given the rigmarole associated with opening an account these days. I had difficulty in a bank where I was known to some of the staff but had to produce utilities and passport. how come these scammers don't seem to need the same checks?
Perhaps why I don't keep savings in an online account. I only use online banking for my current account.
Some savings accounts can't initiate payments to anyone other than another account held by the same person.
The additional security for new payees was with respect to current accounts; I'm surprised it's not the same with yours. Again, I thought it was pretty much an industry-wide thing.
Contacting the press and social media are much more likely to be effective, I would have thought. Otherwise his remaining savings won’t last too long.
I always if asked to call back use a different phone (mobile payg). My credit card company phoned me last month to query transactions and even told me to call them back using the number on the back of my card when I was less than forthcoming.
Because often they just take over another legit consumer's account and use that as a middle-man and then it's either redrawn or transferred overseas to more sunny climates.
Did the tell him he was to be compensated for the fault/virus.
Once the victim has handed over remote control of their computer, the fraudster will tell the victim that they may be entitled to compensation, or put them through to a supervisor who will appear to make an offer of compensation.
The scammer will say that they are sending the money and ask for the sort code and bank account number then ask the victim to log into their bank account to check that it has arrived but they have not logged off and can see everything
They are then in using your details working away in the background to transfer or take cash. You are only doing a quick check.
They then log off ask you to check the refund has gone through to your bank, so you log back in and see this massive refund which is your cash which they have transferred and you then fire it over.
I'm sure in his panick he forgot he logged in twice once to check for a refund and once again to send the funds.
Last edited by Fords; 22nd February 2017 at 19:21.
It is the same for mine.
We are at cross purposes.
My point was I don't have any savings accounts linked to my current account so nobody can initiate a payment into my current account from one of my savings accounts. If I want money from a savings account I go to the Building Society and I ask for a cheque. I then walk across the road to my bank and pay it in.
However when I ran a business account with a linked savings account the security was pretty tight including text alerts if any payment over £500 (from memory) was transferred from savings to current. My bank offer this same facility on ordinary current accounts with linked savings accounts, in the same way they offer free encryption software to add a layer of protection.
This makes sense.
Never allow remote access is the simple answer. I have it turned off in my settings.
Gotcha :)
I must have had 6 calls like this last week whilst i was in work, by the time i answered the 6th call i was pretty p1ssed off so thought i'd have some fun.
the caller say "are you the owner of the computer you are using"
Me : "yes"
Caller : "i am from windows security and your computer has been flagged up as infected with various viruses and tojans, are you in front of your computer now"
Me : Yes, can you hold on a minute"
i then started banging a large hardback book on my desk making quite a few loud bangs
Me : "is my computer still flagging up as infected"
Caller : "yes"
Me : "it cant be, I've just smashed it to bits, i'll fix it with a new one" Hello Hello Hello, are you still there..................
Everytime I read about these things happening I just am amazed that anyone can be so utterly goofy as to fall for scams, particularly phone fraud.
But they do, regularly and probably because the older generation are as someone said very trusting.
Maybe it's about time for a proper campaign on TV and radio aimed at the most vulnerable.
I usually have some fund with these scumbags as well, depends if I'm in the mood or not.
Having said that I was lucky enought to call my mum on her mobile once to find my 80 year old dad in a conversation with 'Microsoft Support about to give them access, and managed to get him to end the conversation. But they are genunely old, someone in their 60s shouldn't fall for this kind of nonsense.
So funny - will take note!! Any advise for handling calls where they have you recorded as, "being in a recent road traffic accident"??
Yes, I can't remeber, I was in a accident and since then my memory is not so good,
Then when they tell you that there records indicate that and can you confirm your name and address.
you can't remeber because you had an accident resently and your memory isn't very good now, and then you ask is it very good.
When they ask is what very good, you say
my record I don't remeber making one, because I was in a accident and since then my memory is not so good, is this to with my royalties, if it is I think my management company should be the ones to deal with this, they are shister, shister and Rottweiler.
Never gotten much more than this before being told to eff off.
Does he not have the account number and sort code to which he sent the money "?
Plenty of truth to this Dave unfortunately. I've seen it at least 5 times now with my clients. You normally have to go through an extra security step to send outside of your accounts, as it's not an internal transaction, so that's why they ask for you to do it manually.
He will have but that will be a holding account not the actual final destination of the cash, in order to get the money back you would have to convince both the receiving bank and the account holder to return the cash, from here the cash can be moved abroad proberbly the same day, the recovery process is far to slow and everyone will have scarpered. The receiving account holder might have no idea the money has been moved through it, possibly one they have taken over with the same scam and found nothing in it, but it's of some use to the scammer.
usually a compromised account that they have a card for - they then withdraw from an atm - who's interested in spending time trying to sort that one out then? the bank? the fuzz? doubt it....
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