Formula 1 2017

[CardShark]

Second team now submitted.

Force India has just unveiled it's official 2017 colour scheme prompted through a new sponsor. Pink race suits to match?



Sniff Petrol's take on the McLaren Honda situation - http://sniffpetrol.com/2017/03/14/mc.../#.WMfd0H_o7IV

This puts some perspective on their potential up-hill struggle from now - https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/a...crisis-882530/

...and this is their back-up plan...

[Backward point]

You beat me to it! I was just about to post the picture of Force India's erm.. distinctive new livery. Still, it's good to see some new investment in the team, and if last year's performance is anything to go by, they'll make it go a long way.

More McLaren Honda news from Mark Hughes of Motor Sport - apparently one of the Honda problems is overheating valves. There's no further detail, or even an indication of whether it's the inlet or exhaust valves which are affected, but clearly the engines had to be de-tuned simply in the interests of enabling some running at Barcelona. Which meant running slower than necessary resulting in less than optimal ERS recovery from the MGU-H and MGU-K systems, lower battery power to feed the hybrid system, and so on. A cumulative effect, and lap times around 2.7s to 3s off the pace even when the car was running.

Mark's post-test analysis is here: http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/op...l&utm_content=

[Huertecilla]

Second team now submitted.

Force India has just unveiled it's official 2017 colour scheme prompted through a new sponsor. Pink race suits to match?

LOVE that; makes the dorsal fin look GOOD!!!
Great color too on the grid and track. Instantly recognizable.

[Saint-Just]

If you see the 'SAHARA' bit on the FI you understand immediately (hint: desert) why this colour was chosen: they see themselves as some kind of special forces infiltrated behind enemy lines and ready to take them on, and deal with them

[Omegary]

Instantly thought of this when I saw the FI colour scheme.



Cheers,
Gary

[JasonM]

Someone clever should incorporate the fin as a sharks dorsal fin colour scheme, that would look good

[petethegeek]

Instantly thought of this when I saw the FI colour scheme.



Cheers,
Gary

Somewhat worryingly my mind went in a slightly different direction.

[CardShark]

Someone clever should incorporate the fin as a sharks dorsal fin colour scheme, that would look good

Jordan had a shark, hornet and a snake on their nose cones back in the day, the Bitten & Hisses snake was the first one to come to mind.

[JasonM]

Well remembered, they did look good didn't they, my first wife's firm used to sponsor them and I have some team kit somewhere...

[Huertecilla]

Not sure if McLaren is doing good with contacting Mercedes however informal.
Even if it is only a rumor they are not vehemently denying, it must do huge damage to the relation with Honda.
It needs no public underlining that there are problems and that the Honda engine is the biggie.
It would so bad for F1 now and in the near future if Honda pulls out.

[JeremyO]

Not sure if McLaren is doing good with contacting Mercedes however informal.
Even if it is only a rumor they are not vehemently denying, it must do huge damage to the relation with Honda.
It needs no public underlining that there are problems and that the Honda engine is the biggie.
It would so bad for F1 now and in the near future if Honda pulls out.

I would not be really surprised if McLaren are looking at a different engine supplier. Honda have had long enough to produce a competitive engine, and given their credentials, I am surprised and disappointed that they cannot produce the goods.

Question on is can McLaren afford to ditch Honda given the latters huge financial contribution?

Can't imagine Alonso staying with the team if they show little prospect of being competitive. It's a shame really but think if that were the case he would just retire at the end of the season.

[Backward point]

The value of the Honda deal with McLaren is estimated at $100m, and covers engine supply and support, team sponsorship and half of the drivers' salaries.

McLaren don't have anything like enough sponsorship to cover the loss of Honda plus the cost of a Mercedes engine deal, and it would take a year to design a new car to accommodate the Mercedes engine, ERS systems etc.

Right now, I'm not convinced that McLaren can afford to move away from Honda, and I suspect that Honda will want to sort out the issues and provide a power unit which is capable of at least regular finishes within the Top 10.

There was an interesting discussion on Sky last evening, with Craig Scarborough (Scarbs) and Mike Gascoyne, which discounted the likelihood of a McLaren/Honda split for those reasons, plus the fact that McLaren were easily the worst Mercedes powered team when the new power units were introduced in 2014. There was also mention that the McLaren chassis appeared to be one of the worst-handling during pre-season testing, with the drivers lacking the confidence to use as much throttle as others in key high-load corners. Neither believed that McLaren have built a decent chassis for several years.

Mike Gascoyne made the point that it's very difficult to deal with Honda, for logistical reasons and the fact that they are very process-driven, and decision making is laborious. He was Technical Director at Jordan when they used Honda engines badged as Mugen and would spend several days each month in Japan having meeting with Honda managers and engineers, and gave the impression that in today's Formula 1 a team needs a much closer relationship with their engine supplier.

[Matt.D]

I've read several reports suggesting perceived chassis issues should be apportioned to the poor drivability of the Honda. General comments on the chassis have been good from the team. But then I suppose until the engine is up to speed it's impossible to predict accurately how the McLaren compares to the Mercedes/Ferrari chassis.

Regarding the switch to Mercedes, I can't see it happening before the end of 2017, but surely McLaren have to think of the brand damage that's occurring (particularly the impact this has on it's road car business) and what is the best way out of this. So far no customer engine team has come close to winning the WDC/WCC in the hybrid era. So reverting to Mercedes is at best a stop gap.

I think it highlights just how piss poorly thought out and rushed the hybrid concept was. Just as the transition to V8s saw a subsidised Cosworth engine developed, there should have been a similar package available in the hybrid era that Red Bull or McLaren could have jumped on. At the minute there are two well financed and capable teams who are throttled by not having a (capable) works engine available.

Perhaps we should be taking bets on who pulls the plug first, Honda or McLaren and when that might be?

[Huertecilla]

Perhaps we should be taking bets on who pulls the plug first, Honda or McLaren and when that might be?

Either way F1 would suffer of it's own regulations again.

[CardShark]

I think it highlights just how piss poorly thought out and rushed the hybrid concept was. Just as the transition to V8s saw a subsidised Cosworth engine developed, there should have been a similar package available in the hybrid era that Red Bull or McLaren could have jumped on. At the minute there are two well financed and capable teams who are throttled by not having a (capable) works engine available.

Perhaps we should be taking bets on who pulls the plug first, Honda or McLaren and when that might be?

Even if the teams/engine suppliers had another year or two to work on their hybrid concepts prior to racing it wouldn't guarantee closer total performance and more compact lap times amongst the teams. Given the time frames that they had Mercedes proved that it was possible to get it right (or at least more right than others), though their first year's hybrid results as a team where enhanced by the fact that they were able to design the entire car together as one unit whereas the Merc engine customers had less time to find the perfect marriage between engine and chassis. Honda came to the party a year late though that doesn't excuse the apparent performance disparity between them and the others, they simply haven't done a decent enough job.

If I remember correctly the V8 Cosworth engines were developed for the teams that didn't/couldn't secure a manufacturer engine supplier i.e. it was set up to guarantee engines for everyone. I may be wrong here however I've a feeling that the V8s were also brought in a lot faster from initial idea to first race compared to the current hybrid era thus increasing the need for some form of safety net. Given the cost to develop a complete hybrid powertrain I'm not sure how practical, or possible, it would have been to ask a third party to develop what would, in effect, be a stop-gap. It's a shame to see Honda and McLaren struggling as they are and I don't see it as a positive for the sport either, I just wouldn't lay the blame for this at the feet of the rule makers. Honda threw their name into the hat, no-one forced them to.

As for who will blink first... Tricky, though I'd say that if McLaren thought they could survive financially then they'd drop Honda. The McLaren brand is being damaged by this whole affair even if Honda is getting the lion's share of the flack, can McLaren afford to keep going on like this?

[Ashtennisguru]

Given that McLaren Automotive/Ricardo developed a turbo-hybrid engine for the P1 in under 18 months I'm surprised they haven't considered doing similar for the F1 programme.

[jaytip]

but surely McLaren have to think of the brand damage that's occurring (particularly the impact this has on it's road car business)

If by this you mean sales of its road car, I don't think it would have any impact at all. If you have the coin to buy a McLaren, you are not going then think 'I want a McLaren, but I'm not going to buy one because their F1 team is crap'.
Their road cars are getting FAR better reviews than their track car at the moment.

[Ashtennisguru]

^^^ The old adage from the car makers was "win on Sunday, sell on Monday" - wonder if this still applies? Or if the reverse is true!?!?

[Saint-Just]

^^^ The old adage from the car makers was "win on Sunday, sell on Monday" - wonder if this still applies? Or if the reverse is true!?!?

Not sure how many people bought a Renault because they were WC. Not sure that its team dire performance cost Toyota any sales either.
Of course, for teams like McLaren and Ferrari the racing image has a bigger impact; But I do not think it will affect McLaren as long as its road cars are as good as they are at the moment.

Now, if they were to fit a Honda engine...

[CardShark]

The F1 team is the one that will suffer, as said the road cars are so good they should be unaffected. It also helps that a)the finger of blame is pointing more at Honda than McLaren and b) the race team and road car division are rarely mentioned by McLaren in the same sentence; they're seen, and run, as two entirely separate entities. Ferrari, in my opinion, have always had a closer road/race car relationship (we all know that the road cars only originally came into being to fund the race team, so the story goes) however how many Ferrari road car customers buy them because of the F1 team's successes? I doubt that it's very many, if the road cars stand up to scrutiny within their market then they'll sell.

[snowman]

If by this you mean sales of its road car, I don't think it would have any impact at all. If you have the coin to buy a McLaren, you are not going then think 'I want a McLaren, but I'm not going to buy one because their F1 team is crap'.
Their road cars are getting FAR better reviews than their track car at the moment.

To be fair the base model Dacias get FAR better reviews than a McLaren F1 car at the moment (might even be quicker)!

M

[CardShark]

Given that McLaren Automotive/Ricardo developed a turbo-hybrid engine for the P1 in under 18 months I'm surprised they haven't considered doing similar for the F1 programme.

I'd guess that it would be down to costs. If Honda are providing the £100mil of support that BP mentioned in his post that's £100mil that McL doesn't have to find down the back of the sofa, and seeing as McLaren is looking a little sparse in the sponsorship side of things then the Honda partnership is understandable. There's also the slight romance of the successes of years past, it worked well then though seeing as McLaren (and probably Honda) isn't the same team/company as back then to expect instant harmony would be foolish in the extreme.

[petethegeek]

^^^ The old adage from the car makers was "win on Sunday, sell on Monday" - wonder if this still applies? Or if the reverse is true!?!?

Not sure how many people bought a Renault because they were WC. Not sure that its team dire performance cost Toyota any sales either.
Of course, for teams like McLaren and Ferrari the racing image has a bigger impact; But I do not think it will affect McLaren as long as its road cars are as good as they are at the moment.

I distinctly remember reading an article written shortly after the time of Alonso's championship reign, which suggested that sales of Renault cars in Spain rose by over 30 percent as a result. Unfortunately my cursory google search has failed to locate the piece.

Admittedly we are talking about a different market segment here, but I recall being slightly surprised by the reported magnitude of the halo effect - assuming it was indeed the case.

[Saint-Just]

I distinctly remember reading an article written shortly after the time of Alonso's championship reign, which suggested that sales of Renault cars in Spain rose by over 30 percent as a result. Unfortunately my cursory google search has failed to locate the piece.

Admittedly we are talking about a different market segment here, but I recall being slightly surprised by the reported magnitude of the halo effect - assuming it was indeed the case.

You could well be right, but that could have more to do with Renault using Alonso than winning the WC. It is part of the reason for spending so much money that car companies use F1 in their marketing throughout the season (and indeed throughout the year, I have been 'offered' to take part in the draw for Bottas or Hamilton's frames balaclavas used in Barcelona).

[jaytip]

To be fair the base model Dacias get FAR better reviews than a McLaren F1 car at the moment (might even be quicker)!

M

It pains me to say it because McLaren are my favourite team but that did make me chuckle.

[Matt.D]

...If I remember correctly the V8 Cosworth engines were developed for the teams that didn't/couldn't secure a manufacturer engine supplier i.e. it was set up to guarantee engines for everyone. I may be wrong here however I've a feeling that the V8s were also brought in a lot faster from initial idea to first race compared to the current hybrid era thus increasing the need for some form of safety net. Given the cost to develop a complete hybrid powertrain I'm not sure how practical, or possible, it would have been to ask a third party to develop what would, in effect, be a stop-gap. It's a shame to see Honda and McLaren struggling as they are and I don't see it as a positive for the sport either, I just wouldn't lay the blame for this at the feet of the rule makers. Honda threw their name into the hat, no-one forced them to...

The transition from V10 to V8 was relatively simple compared to the switch to hybrid and didn't need as much lead time, they even tested on track during most of the latter half of 2006 unrestricted, something that wasn't allowed when hybrids were introduced. My comment regarding the ill thought out introduction of hybrids was due to the technology being so advanced and expensive that it was impossible (unless mandated by rules) for a third party such as Cosworth to produce a cost effective engine or drive train of equal performance to the factories, which would have been the ideal pressure release for McLaren now or Red Bull in 2015 (and arguably too for Manor and Caterham). It's daft not having an independent power train readily available because as often has been the case, manufacturers come and go with regular occurrence. Combined with the quite frankly ridiculous homologation and token system that held back development on the grounds of keeping costs under control, which only spiked because of the change of formula in the first place, is why I put the blame for this situation squarely on the rule makers.

Given that McLaren Automotive/Ricardo developed a turbo-hybrid engine for the P1 in under 18 months I'm surprised they haven't considered doing similar for the F1 programme.

I think for the same reason Red Bull decided not to run their own engine program, because it's more complex than a road car system, more expensive and has a lot of potential problems, as Honda has demonstrated.

If by this you mean sales of its road car, I don't think it would have any impact at all. If you have the coin to buy a McLaren, you are not going then think 'I want a McLaren, but I'm not going to buy one because their F1 team is crap'.
Their road cars are getting FAR better reviews than their track car at the moment.

I disagree. Short term it probably doesn't effect things, but long term brand damage is critical. McLaren haven't won a grand prix since 2012. Currently the team's longest dry spell and without a hope of reversing that any time soon. Doesn't look good when selling cars built on a heritage of winning.

[hogthrob]

I disagree. Short term it probably doesn't effect things, but long term brand damage is critical. McLaren haven't won a grand prix since 2012. Currently the team's longest dry spell and without a hope of reversing that any time soon. Doesn't look good when selling cars built on a heritage of winning.

Do McLaren road cars still get a halo effect from the original F1 road/race car though?

[CardShark]

The transition from V10 to V8 was relatively simple compared to the switch to hybrid and didn't need as much lead time, they even tested on track during most of the latter half of 2006 unrestricted, something that wasn't allowed when hybrids were introduced. My comment regarding the ill thought out introduction of hybrids was due to the technology being so advanced and expensive that it was impossible (unless mandated by rules) for a third party such as Cosworth to produce a cost effective engine or drive train of equal performance to the factories, which would have been the ideal pressure release for McLaren now or Red Bull in 2015 (and arguably too for Manor and Caterham). It's daft not having an independent power train readily available because as often has been the case, manufacturers come and go with regular occurrence. Combined with the quite frankly ridiculous homologation and token system that held back development on the grounds of keeping costs under control, which only spiked because of the change of formula in the first place, is why I put the blame for this situation squarely on the rule makers.



(Ref damage to the McLaren brand) - I disagree. Short term it probably doesn't effect things, but long term brand damage is critical. McLaren haven't won a grand prix since 2012. Currently the team's longest dry spell and without a hope of reversing that any time soon. Doesn't look good when selling cars built on a heritage of winning.

I think we're agreed that it would be nigh on impossible for a "standby" powerplant to be introduced on a just-in-case basis, and I agree with you that the reason for the expense is due to the current development and manufacturing costs, my point was more towards not blaming the regulations for Honda's shortcomings. Honda knew, as they all do, what challenges they face and they chose to front them. I'm also not aware of any other occasion other than the Cossie V8s where we've had engines to fall back on, when Honda (full team) became Brawn they had to rush in a Merc engine and that was only 2-3 months before the season started. Besides which, even if there were "standby" engines, there's absolutely no guarantee that they'd be any better than what they'd be stepping in for - hybrid or not.

As for the brand image, McLaren haven't won the Drivers' Championship since 2008 and the Constructors' Championship since... 1998!

Good discussions BTW, enjoying this.

[SeanST150]

A slight tangent from the thread but on topic. My Sky contract is up. I don't have Sky Sports. But I really want the F1 channel. Does anyone know how I can get just this channel. I'm not interested in any other sport.

[JasonM]

A slight tangent from the thread but on topic. My Sky contract is up. I don't have Sky Sports. But I really want the F1 channel. Does anyone know how I can get just this channel. I'm not interested in any other sport.

Now TV box, £20 ish from Argos , then the sport pass for I think £8 a month?

[SeanST150]

Now TV box, £20 ish from Argos , then the sport pass for I think £8 a month?

Thanks Jason, but according to the NowTV website is £7 a day, £11 a week or £34 a month. More expensive than going full blown Sky Sports.

Am I missing something? Or do you know of any deals?

[JasonM]

Blimey, sorry for the duff info, I thought the various packages were the same, we have the movie, entertainment and kids ones at the prices I posted for each one.

[Andyg]

Thanks Jason, but according to the NowTV website is £7 a day, £11 a week or £34 a month. More expensive than going full blown Sky Sports.

Am I missing something? Or do you know of any deals?

Kodi box, if you are not that fussy about the quality. The other Upside is you also get infinite TV programmes and movies (for free).

[jaytip]

Kodi box, if you are not that fussy about the quality. The other Upside is you also get infinite TV programmes and movies (for free).

Somebody (not me, that's how I plan to view it) will be along to lambast you soon I'm sure.

[Tokyo Tokei]

Briefly returning to the realm of the uncontentious, an F1 league update: Almost a full grid!

If you are thinking of entering, or entering a second team if you are currently only running one, you have just a few days left.

There are some statistics now showing the currently most-selected components, e.g.,



Ericcson must be proud of the immense appeal of his price skill

Quick instructions:

• Go to http://www.pfrl.net and either login or register
• Create a team or teams
• Join the Individual Private League GPGuide.com 2017 password gpguide.com
• Reveal your F1 team manager legend status from the comfort of your own executive armchair, much as Ron Dennis used to
• Enliven race day knowing that you have a peculiar need for Wehrlein to outperform

Unlimited changes to team components are available before the first race, but you have to in it to win it, so try to get registered before the server clogs up later in the week.

Feel free to pass on to anyone else who might be interested. A few missing from previous years, but also some rookies (thank you and welcome!) this year so a diverse field is promised.

Paul

[SeanST150]

Kodi box, if you are not that fussy about the quality. The other Upside is you also get infinite TV programmes and movies (for free).

Thanks Andy. But I'm more than happy paying. I just don't want to pay for 3/4 additional sports channels for football, golf, cricket and so on. All sports I am not going to watch.

[CardShark]

Ericcson must be proud of the immense appeal of his price skill

I've three drivers in my four seats (one of them is in both my teams), and they're the top three in those stats! Looks like many people are choosing to fund team components other than the drivers, this time next week we'll see who's got off to the best start

[Backward point]

In common with Monisha Kaltenborn I have Marcus Ericsson in my team for reasons of financial necessity.

Different reasons of financial necessity, though.

[Keke]

Just joined the League once again. Thanks for hosting!

[Tokyo Tokei]

Two days left in case anyone else wishes to join. 19 teams so far and ominously, now that our league legend Keke has lined up on the grid, you can be absolutely assured of serious competition for the trophy

As before, don't leave it too late as the server will get busier the closer to cut-off time.



Don't be this guy.

[Tokyo Tokei]

For the last-minuters and stealthy ones, there is just one day left to join the Fantasy F1 league.



Don't be left out, seize the moment and have some fun!

• Go to http://www.pfrl.net and either login or register
• Create a team or teams
• Join the Individual Private League GPGuide.com 2017 password gpguide.com
• Reveal your F1 team manager legend status from the comfort of your own executive armchair, much as Ron Dennis used to
• Enliven race day knowing that you have a peculiar need for Wehrlein to outperform

[Huertecilla]

Whiting said the idea for a "more general way of approaching things" had come about as a result of a request from the teams, who are keen to have a more laissez-faire approach to policing racing incidents.

Now THAT is good news.

Probably needed too with more ground effect and wider cars.

[Keke]

We need at least one more team to join the league!

"When at least 20 teams and at least 10 team owner participating in this league type, it is possible to qualify for the PFRL Champions Racing League or the PFRL Cup."

[Backward point]

Here we are, then. The Formula 1 circus has pitched its tent in Melbourne, and this weekend we'll find out who was sandbagging the most in pre-season testing. If anybody has spotted Eric Boullier entering a branch of Ladbrokes with a large wad of cash, we may discover that McLaren-Honda have played the game of pre-season poker better than anyone else, but the signs are that they were bluffing, and staggering around three seconds off the pace while being hopelessly unreliable is the reality for them. If so, you could excuse Fernando Alonso for throwing his toys out of the pram, because he's really been wasted at McLaren.

Are Ferrari on the pace of Mercedes? If so, Sebastian Vettel will not only be a very happy boy, but the Scuderia may have designs on the Constructors' title, for the first time in too many years. How close will Valtteri Bottas run Lewis Hamilton? Will they be allowed to race each other? What are the chances of Red Bull being in the mix?

There was a game of "Senior Technical Staff Musical Chairs" during the close season, and when the music stopped Paddy Lowe found himself at Williams, with James Allison taking his vacant post at Mercedes. Neither will have had the time to make their respective marks on their new teams as yet.

Just as importantly, how will Liberty manage the sport? There's a new Concorde Agreement due in a few short years, and never has the governance of Formula 1 been under such scrutiny.

I enjoy Melbourne for being unpredictable as much as anything. It's a track like Montreal which doesn't start to become grippy until the Saturday, and sometimes not even then. A peculiar mix of public roads and race track with uneven surfaces and ruts, 90-degree corners, and an inability to dry quickly if it's wet. There's a "first day of term" feeling, the season's pecking order not yet established. New cars, and some teams will be unsure what the effect of the increased downforce will have on performance or fuel consumption. New tyres as well - Pirelli have been asked to produce tyres which don't degrade too quickly, which will have an effect on strategy, with fewer pit stops.

All good, positive news. And hopefully, some good, entertaining racing to look forward to.

[CardShark]

I attended the 2002 race, Mark Webber's debut and 5th place finish for Paul Stoddart's Minardi. I flew down from Cairns the week before and remember overhearing other passengers on the 'plane talking about the forthcoming race. Ended up spending 3 months in Melbourne, loved the place.

Anyway, it's obvious that Merc and Ferrari have the upper hand over the others, where they are compared to eachother appears to be a lot less certain. Hopefully it'll be a dry race so we can get a better idea as to how they stand - bring it on!

[rabbitinheadlights]

All signed up again and ready for the season

[Tokyo Tokei]

Thanks to all for your entries, looks like we are all set! Our 2017 contenders are thus:



"T" after a name indicates a Top 25(!) constructor based on previous performance
"R" after a name indicates a league rookie

We have a good mix. Free changes to team components and predicted fasted race lap are allowed prior to the formal close of entries in a few hours time. So make any last minute changes now.

Enjoy the race and friendly(?) competition

[seadog1408]

Have you seen hamiltons new gloves with the IWC printed on the back of them?, novel idea.



mike

[reggie747]

Have you seen hamiltons new gloves with the IWC printed on the back of them?, novel idea.



mike

They're not new, he had them last season also.

[seadog1408]

They're not new, he had them last season also.

Ah sorry, I didn't see them before!